Does the frightened condition caused by Dirge of Doom end when the duration of the Dirge of Doom bard cantrip is up, or does the condition persist until the end of the enemy's next turn like the frightened condition from any other source?
On a related note, do enemies lose the frightened condition when they leave the area of Dirge?
My reading of the spell is that it causes the standard frightened condition. It acts like frightened from any other source with the special condition that the standard end of turn reduction can never drop it below 1 while in the area
Thus, it does not immediately cease when you leave the area. The only thing that happens when you leave the area is that the normal reduction of the frightened condition at the end of your turn can drop it below 1. This also means that enemies do not lose the condition until the end of their turn if they leave the area
The real argument against it working how you describe is that it essentially makes the Bard able to benefit from 2 songs at once by using dirge every other turn while still keeping everything frightened. That seems to be contrary to the spirit of harmonize being a feat.
The rules argument for frightened going away after one round is that it goes away at the end of the spell duration since it is a spell effect.
My reading of the spell is that it causes the standard frightened condition. It acts like frightened from any other source with the special condition that the standard end of turn reduction can never drop it below 1 while in the area
Thus, it does not immediately cease when you leave the area. The only thing that happens when you leave the area is that the normal reduction of the frightened condition at the end of your turn can drop it below 1. This also means that enemies do not lose the condition until the end of their turn if they leave the area
The real argument against it working how you describe is that it essentially makes the Bard able to benefit from 2 songs at once by using dirge every other turn while still keeping everything frightened. That seems to be contrary to the spirit of harmonize being a feat.
The rules argument for frightened going away after one round is that it goes away at the end of the spell duration since it is a spell effect.
Not all spell effects are removed at the end of spell duration.
Not all spell effects are removed at the end of spell duration.
Does the spell have to specifically mentioned that the effects will persist after the spell duration? By default, it seems that all spell effects would end at the end if the duration.
Note that Dirge of Doom states that "They can’t reduce their
frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area."
This tells me that as soon as they are outside of the area of Dirge of Doom, whether they moved out of it or the spell ended, the standard reduction of their frightened condition happens at the end of their turn.
Doesn't seem too strong to me, since it is a focus spell can't be abused too much given the other focus spells that it is competing with. Focus Points aren't infinite in combat after all.
If the intent was for the frightened condition to end immediately, all the designers would have to do is omit the second sentence.
Note that Dirge of Doom states that "They can’t reduce their
frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area."This tells me that as soon as they are outside of the area of Dirge of Doom, whether they moved out of it or the spell ended, the standard reduction of their frightened condition happens at the end of their turn.
Doesn't seem too strong to me, since it is a focus spell can't be abused too much given the other focus spells that it is competing with. Focus Points aren't infinite in combat after all.
If the intent was for the frightened condition to end immediately, all the designers would have to do is omit the second sentence.
If they just omitted the second sentence, then the frightened could go away before some party members had a chance to exploit it if their initiative is after the enemies, so I don't think the presence of the second sentence is a convincing argument that frightened isn't supposed to end with the duration.
As for your balance argument, Dirge is a cantrip that doesn't take a focus point to use. With the more liberal ruling, you would only have to use it every other turn to mostly keep frightened up. You could use an inspire in the off turn to swing stats by 2 in total and possibly 3 or 4 with Inspire Heroics.
Note that Dirge of Doom states that "They can’t reduce their
frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area."This tells me that as soon as they are outside of the area of Dirge of Doom, whether they moved out of it or the spell ended, the standard reduction of their frightened condition happens at the end of their turn.
Doesn't seem too strong to me, since it is a focus spell can't be abused too much given the other focus spells that it is competing with. Focus Points aren't infinite in combat after all.
If the intent was for the frightened condition to end immediately, all the designers would have to do is omit the second sentence.
If they just omitted the second sentence, then the frightened could go away before some party members had a chance to exploit it if their initiative is after the enemies, so I don't think the presence of the second sentence is a convincing argument that frightened isn't supposed to end with the duration.
As for your balance argument, Dirge is a cantrip that doesn't take a focus point to use. With the more liberal ruling, you would only have to use it every other turn to mostly keep frightened up. You could use an inspire in the off turn to swing stats by 2 in total and possibly 3 or 4 with Inspire Heroics.
Right, silly me forgetting that Bards are all special with Focus Cantrips.
Still, your argument is kinda self defeating. By either interpretation, if the opponent were to leave the Dirge of Doom area, they would no longer be Frightened after their turn ends, and your allies would not be able to take advantage of it.
To me, it goes thus:
Turn 1: Bard casts Dirge of Doom. All enemies are Frightened 1 while in it's area, and cannot reduce that value while they remain in the area.
Bad Guy 1 decides to stay in the area, and remains Frightened 1 through his turn.
Bad Guy 2 decides to run out of the area and shoot into it with a ranged weapon. His frightened condition ends at the end of his turn.
Turn 2: Bard casts some other cantrip/uses his actions for other things.
Bad Guy 1 is still frightened 1 and takes it's penalty through his turn. At end of turn, his frightened condition ends.
Bad Guy 2 has not been frightened since Turn 1. Operates normally.
What about this order of operations is troubling? It follows the rules to the letter and feels thematically fitting. Bard sings scary song. Bad Guy who stays is frightened. Bad Guy who runs shakes it off faster.
Are you saying that if a Bard never stops casting Dirge of Doom, everyone who ever heard that Dirge would remain Frightened forever, regardless of their positioning?
Or am I missing your point entirely?
Right, silly me forgetting that Bards are all special with Focus Cantrips.
Still, your argument is kinda self defeating. By either interpretation, if the opponent were to leave the Dirge of Doom area, they would no longer be Frightened after their turn ends, and your allies would not be able to take advantage of it.
To me, it goes thus:
Turn 1: Bard casts Dirge of Doom. All enemies are Frightened 1 while in it's area, and cannot reduce that value while they remain in the area.
Bad Guy 1 decides to stay in the area, and remains Frightened 1 through his turn.
Bad Guy 2 decides to run out of the area and shoot into it with a ranged weapon. His frightened condition ends at the end of his...
I'm mostly just surprised at how strong Dirge is in the case of Bad Guy 2. It's 1 action to debuff all actions and defenses of every enemy within 30ft for possibly 2 turns. That is incredibly powerful if it works that way.
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It doesn't feel overly strong to me. No less powerful than a Plus 1 to attack rolls and +1 to damage anyway.
This would allow you to throw out both cantrips every turn for a total of +2 to hit, +1 ac/saves due to the opponents DC's being 1 lower etc.. but it is most of the bards turn. That is assuming your party isn't getting their status bonuses elsewhere anyway.
I like to think of it more as a late game still relevant Inspire Courage, since status bonuses become more plentiful the higher in level you go.
It also does not work on any creature immune to fear as far as I can tell, so there are inbuilt creatures that are resistant to it.
It doesn't feel overly strong to me. No less powerful than a Plus 1 to attack rolls and +1 to damage anyway.
This would allow you to throw out both cantrips every turn for a total of +2 to hit, +1 ac/saves due to the opponents DC's being 1 lower etc.. but it is most of the bards turn. That is assuming your party isn't getting their status bonuses elsewhere anyway.
I like to think of it more as a late game still relevant Inspire Courage, since status bonuses become more plentiful the higher in level you go.
It also does not work on any creature immune to fear as far as I can tell, so there are inbuilt creatures that are resistant to it.
Dirge is much stronger than Courage. The only downside is the shorter range. But frightened doesn't just increase your parties chance of landing hits. It lowers the enemies accuracy,saving throws, and DCs on spells or abilities like breath weapons. Even the +1 damage pales in comparison to the extra damage a Dreadstriker or Advantageous Assault character can get That's really incredibly good for an at will, single action 30 foot emination.
Honestly, I'd thought the only real downside to Dirge was that it meant not being able to use Inspire. If you can effectively keep both going without Harmonize then it is bananas good. And in not saying you can't. I am undecided on the RAI based on the RAW. Just pointing out this makes one of the best feats in the game even better.
The thing is you can find 2 types of effects giving the Frightened conditions: Those with a duration (Fear, Dirge of Doom) and those without (Phantasmal Killer, Demoralize). It doesn't look like there's any consistency in there.
When an effect applies a condition with a duration, everyone removes the effect when the duration expires (Invisibility, Ray of Enfeeblement). So, I'll continue to rule that Dirge of Doom effect stops when the duration expires.
As a side note, the exact rule to handle this case is this one: "Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses)."
And the real question is what means this "part of the spell's duration entry"...
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The thing is you can find 2 types of effects giving the Frightened conditions: Those with a duration (Fear, Dirge of Doom) and those without (Phantasmal Killer, Demoralize). It doesn't look like there's any consistency in there.
When an effect applies a condition with a duration, everyone removes the effect when the duration expires (Invisibility, Ray of Enfeeblement). So, I'll continue to rule that Dirge of Doom effect stops when the duration expires.As a side note, the exact rule to handle this case is this one: "Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses)."
And the real question is what means this "part of the spell's duration entry"...
Neither Fear nor Dirge of Doom give Frightened with a Duration. Fear inflicts Frightened 1,2, or 3. On a Critical it also inflicts Fleeing for 1 Round.
Dirge of Doom inflicts Frightened 1 and stipulates that the Condition cannot be reduced within the area of the spell.
Everyone seems to skip over the part of Delay that was written specifically to avoid this kind of abuse.
You wait for the right moment to act. The rest of your turn doesn’t happen yet. Instead, you’re removed from the initiative order. You can return to the initiative order as a free action triggered by the end of any other creature’s turn. This permanently changes your initiative to the new position. You can’t use reactions until you return to the initiative order. If you Delay an entire round without returning to the initiative order, the actions from the Delayed turn are lost, your initiative doesn’t change, and your next turn occurs at your original position in the initiative order.
When you Delay, any persistent damage or other negative effects that normally occur at the start or end of your turn occur immediately when you use the Delay action. Any beneficial effects that would end at any point during your turn also end. The GM might determine that other effects end when you Delay as well. Essentially, you can’t Delay to avoid negative consequences that would happen on your turn or to extend beneficial effects that would end on your turn.
Dirge of Doom ends when you Delay.
Yep, this thread was the very first thing I posted on the Paizo forums.
I think Dirge, if ruled liberally, is too strong. I think the liberal ruling that frightened does not end at the end of the spell duration looks like it's RAW based off the deafened example in the spell duration section. I wouldn't be surprised to see it ruled either way in an official ruling.
Neither Fear nor Dirge of Doom give Frightened with a Duration. Fear inflicts Frightened 1,2, or 3. On a Critical it also inflicts Fleeing for 1 Round.
Fear has a duration which means that you can dispel it. When you dispel it its effects are removed. Considering its only effect is Frightened condition its hard to not consider that dispelling it removes Frightened.
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Neither Fear nor Dirge of Doom give Frightened with a Duration. Fear inflicts Frightened 1,2, or 3. On a Critical it also inflicts Fleeing for 1 Round.Fear has a duration which means that you can dispel it. When you dispel it its effects are removed. Considering its only effect is Frightened condition its hard to not consider that dispelling it removes Frightened.
The only Duration Fear has is the Fleeing for 1 Round if the Target Crit Fails Their Save. So, you're saying the Target is better off Crit Failing, as it can then be Dispelled?
The only Duration Fear has is the Fleeing for 1 Round if the Target Crit Fails Their Save. So, you're saying the Target is better off Crit Failing, as it can then be Dispelled?Neither Fear nor Dirge of Doom give Frightened with a Duration. Fear inflicts Frightened 1,2, or 3. On a Critical it also inflicts Fleeing for 1 Round.Fear has a duration which means that you can dispel it. When you dispel it its effects are removed. Considering its only effect is Frightened condition its hard to not consider that dispelling it removes Frightened.
Sure, Frightened has no duration. You get Frightened for a split second and then you're back to normal.
What I say is that there are 2 interpretations of the rules on that matter. And what you say is not wrong but it's not the only possible interpretation.Right now, without a dev comment on a condition duration being "part of the spell's duration entry" Dirge of Doom can be interpreted both ways per RAW.
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I dunno, it seems pretty clear that Dirge of Doom states exactly how it works.
Dirge of Doom says foes within the area are frightened 1. <end statement>
They (those foes) can't reduce their Frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area. <end separate statement>
The spell does not provide any indication that the Frightened condition is different than normal - in fact, the second statement indicates it does in fact decrease as normal for enemies... just not below 1.
The duration seems clearly intended to indicate that both of the effects of the spell persist until next turn, not to govern Frightened somehow changing how it works itself.
The only Duration Fear has is the Fleeing for 1 Round if the Target Crit Fails Their Save. So, you're saying the Target is better off Crit Failing, as it can then be Dispelled?Neither Fear nor Dirge of Doom give Frightened with a Duration. Fear inflicts Frightened 1,2, or 3. On a Critical it also inflicts Fleeing for 1 Round.Fear has a duration which means that you can dispel it. When you dispel it its effects are removed. Considering its only effect is Frightened condition its hard to not consider that dispelling it removes Frightened.Sure, Frightened has no duration. You get Frightened for a split second and then you're back to normal.
What I say is that there are 2 interpretations of the rules on that matter. And what you say is not wrong but it's not the only possible interpretation.
Right now, without a dev comment on a condition duration being "part of the spell's duration entry" Dirge of Doom can be interpreted both ways per RAW.
The Frightened Condition has its own built in Duration. That has nothing to do with the Spell that imposed it. I'm not sure how that part is open to interpretation.
You’re gripped by fear and struggle to control your nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal to this value to all your checks and DCs. Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1.
So you aren't Frightened for a split second, you are Frightened for as long as you have a Frightened value.
The only way the Frightened Condition imposed by a Spell would end with the Spell would be if the Spell said:
"The target is Frightened X for the Duration" or "The target is Frightened X for Y amount of time".
None of the Spells in question say that.
Blue Dragonfly Poison is the only thing I've been able to find that inflicts Frightened for a set Duration.
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If a Bard stops Dirge of Doom, I'd have the Frightened condition continue. Until they started another Composition that is, since that's supposed to end the effects of ongoing Compositions.
And interesting question as to whether the magic of Fear remains to be dispelled or inflicts and is gone. I was leaning toward inflict, but since Fear is an enchantment, I think the magic does get in one's mind, at least until you shake it off. Then the Frightened condition could be dispelled (if from magic, otherwise via Remove Fear).
I dunno, it seems pretty clear that Dirge of Doom states exactly how it works.
Dirge of Doom says foes within the area are frightened 1. <end statement>
They (those foes) can't reduce their Frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area. <end separate statement>
The spell does not provide any indication that the Frightened condition is different than normal - in fact, the second statement indicates it does in fact decrease as normal for enemies... just not below 1.
The duration seems clearly intended to indicate that both of the effects of the spell persist until next turn, not to govern Frightened somehow changing how it works itself.
Yeah, I think its also important to note that nothing in Dirge requires say, the Bard to keep "playing/singing/whatever".
Dirge requires one action and nothing else. So the Bard could play dirge, stow his instrument, and then start telling a joke, or whatever else he wants to do with the final action and the effects of Dirge are still there. If the devs wanted the effects of Dirge to end on the Bard's next turn, it would read "Foes within the area are frightened 1 for one round." or "Foes within the area are frightened 1 for the duration of Dirge, unless they happen to move out of the area of Dirge in which case Frightened works as normal." But it doesn't say that. The only thing that says frightened works differently than normal with Dirge is the line "They can't reduce their frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area."
And interesting question as to whether the magic of Fear remains to be dispelled or inflicts and is gone. I was leaning toward inflict, but since Fear is an enchantment, I think the magic does get in one's mind, at least until you shake it off. Then the Frightened condition could be dispelled (if from magic, otherwise via Remove Fear).
I see what you are saying with this part. In that case, you are talking about Dispelling the Frightened Condition directly, not the Spell that originally caused it.
That I can understand more.
Casting Dispel on the Bard to end Dirge of Doom would not end the Frightened Condition, but casting Dispel directly on the Frightened Creature might. I'm not sure on that one.
Yep, this thread was the very first thing I posted on the Paizo forums.
I think Dirge, if ruled liberally, is too strong. I think the liberal ruling that frightened does not end at the end of the spell duration looks like it's RAW based off the deafened example in the spell duration section. I wouldn't be surprised to see it ruled either way in an official ruling.
It's one action to create a 30 foot emanation for a single round (from the end of the Bard's current turn to the start of the Bard's next turn). This does not refer to the Frightened condition's duration, because the spell effect is an aura, not the condition. The condition is applied as part of the aura, and is not specifically the effect of the cantrip. It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.
Enemies within the area are Frightened 1. There's no mention of "leaving the area removes the Frightened condition," as I've seen in other ability descriptions, meaning that even if you leave the area for your turn, you still deal with the Frightened condition for the remainder of your turn, but it reduces as normal at the end of your turn. That being said, if you remain in the area, the ability states that you do not reduce your Frightened condition below 1. However, since it only has a duration of 1 round, it's not really that bad, and it takes an action from the Bard each turn to maintain this. You're basically Slowed/Stunned 1 perpetually for this, so there are definitely costs for utilizing these tactics. And if the Bard has to move, he's not casting anything more than a Shield spell unless he's hasted.
Additionally, it's useless against numerous creatures you would want the benefits from, like mindless monstrosities, oozes, etc. And those ones have the highest to-hit, damage, and so on.
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Think of it this way - if it said "Foes within or entering the aura suffer 2d6 damage. This damage can't be healed while they remain within the aura." NO ONE would argue that the damage goes away when you end the composition.
Frightened is the "damage" dealt by Dirge of Doom.
To me it simply goes in when you step within the composition range and goes away when you step out.
It seems like in many videogames when you have permanent buffs/debuffs aura centred on something, and depends where you are you can get or not the buff/debuff.
Technically it doesn't go away when you step out of the area. However, it does allow you to reduce below 1 when you step out of the area. So foe starts its turn on the edge of the aura while frightened 1. Foe uses first action to step out of the area, Foe is still frightened 1 and uses two actions to do whatever (as long as its not step back into the area). At end of foe's turn, the frightened condition is reduced by 1 to zero and foe is no longer frightened.
The only Duration Fear has is the Fleeing for 1 Round if the Target Crit Fails Their Save. So, you're saying the Target is better off Crit Failing, as it can then be Dispelled?Neither Fear nor Dirge of Doom give Frightened with a Duration. Fear inflicts Frightened 1,2, or 3. On a Critical it also inflicts Fleeing for 1 Round.Fear has a duration which means that you can dispel it. When you dispel it its effects are removed. Considering its only effect is Frightened condition its hard to not consider that dispelling it removes Frightened.Sure, Frightened has no duration. You get Frightened for a split second and then you're back to normal.
What I say is that there are 2 interpretations of the rules on that matter. And what you say is not wrong but it's not the only possible interpretation.
Right now, without a dev comment on a condition duration being "part of the spell's duration entry" Dirge of Doom can be interpreted both ways per RAW.The Frightened Condition has its own built in Duration. That has nothing to do with the Spell that imposed it. I'm not sure how that part is open to interpretation.
It is the part that is open to interpretation. Find anything in the rules that specifically say that Frightened duration has nothing to do with the spell that imposed it. You won't find any.
Frightened is a condition like any other. Invisibility doesn't say "You are invisible for 10 minutes" or "You are invisible for the duration of the spell". It just says "the target becomes invisible". Still, everyone removes it as soon as the spell duration ends.There are no rules in the book that set Frightened appart from Invisible. So, your interpretation of the rules is correct, but it's not the only correct one.
Humblegamer's interpretation is also correct and you won't find any rule disproving him.
Think of it this way - if it said "Foes within or entering the aura suffer 2d6 damage. This damage can't be healed while they remain within the aura." NO ONE would argue that the damage goes away when you end the composition.
Frightened is the "damage" dealt by Dirge of Doom.
I disagree with the analogy.
Frightened is a Condition, damage is not.Frightened is temporary by default, while damage needs rest or healing.
So the analogy fails.
(This doesn't mean your conclusion is wrong that Frightened is inflicted, only that the argument fails to lead us there IMO.)
Frightened 1 resembles Clumsy 1, Flat-Footed, or Wounded 1.
Except each of those has separate attributes, ends in different ways.
BTW, I agree ending the Composition doesn't end the condition. Dirge of Doom gives the Condition, yet isn't necessary to maintain it, as evidenced by those leaving still being Frightened (at least until the end of their turn).
I also believe starting a new Composition does end the condition, since effects of previous Compositions are supposed to end then. But if the target had had Frightened 1 from a different source which Dirge of Doom then had prevented from going below 1, that target would still be Frightened.
The frightened condition gives very specific rules for reducing its value. The value decreases at the end of the turn unless specified otherwise.
Dirge of Doom specifies otherwise.
Unless there is something that specifies that frightened reduces its value at any other time, then the actual wording of the rule applies. There is absolutely nothing in the frightened condition definition that says "If the creature leaves an area of effect that caused the condition, it is no longer frightened." There is absolutely nothing in the frightened condition that says "If the frightened condition is caused by a spell/attack/action of a foe it goes away once that spell/attack/action/whatever is over." Instead it specifically states it gets reduced at end of turn unless otherwise specified.
In order for Dirge to work as you suggest Bidi, Dirge would have to specifically state that the frightened condition goes away when Dirge ends. It doesn't though.
Edit: Nevermind, found it.
In order for Dirge to work as you suggest Bidi, Dirge would have to specifically state that the frightened condition goes away when Dirge ends. It doesn't though.
"The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts."
Here's the line you're looking for.
In order for Dirge to work as you suggest Bidi, Dirge would have to specifically state that the frightened condition goes away when Dirge ends. It doesn't though."The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts."
Here's the line you're looking for.
And the spell effect is to cause Frightened and prevent it from decaying.
Once caused, Frightened is exactly like any other effect or condition (or damage) - it has its own rules unless those are explicitly preempted by the spell.
Yeah, I think I'm convinced Frightened has to tick down as normal, even though that is bananas good. What a feat.
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In order for Dirge to work as you suggest Bidi, Dirge would have to specifically state that the frightened condition goes away when Dirge ends. It doesn't though."The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts."
Here's the line you're looking for.
And the spell effect is to cause Frightened and prevent it from decaying.
Once caused, Frightened is exactly like any other effect or condition (or damage) - it has its own rules unless those are explicitly preempted by the spell.
Frightened is like any condition: By default it doesn't last more than the spell duration.
The complete rule about duration is that:
"The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts. Spells that last for more than an instant have a Duration entry. A spell might last until the start or end of a turn, for some number of rounds, for minutes, or even longer. If a spell’s duration is given in rounds, the number of rounds remaining decreases by 1 at the start of each of the spellcaster’s turns, ending when the duration reaches 0.
Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses)."
So, Frightened may or may not last after the spell duration. It is a case by case ruling, Frightened may last after some spells and not last after some others. There is no general rule making Frightened last more than the spell duration by default.
For example, the Blinded condition illustrates this process clearly: If you are Blinded by the spell Blindness it lasts more than the spell duration. But if you are Blinded by Darkened Eyes it stops if the spell is dispelled or if its duration ends. Darkened Eyes is a very good example of a Blinded condition that "works like Frightened" as it has it's own way of being removed.
In order for Dirge to work as you suggest Bidi, Dirge would have to specifically state that the frightened condition goes away when Dirge ends. It doesn't though."The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts."
Here's the line you're looking for.
That doesn't counter his statement, though. The spell effect is a 30 foot emanation that applies Frightened 1 to enemies in the area, which means the emanation is what is affected by the duration, not the Frightened condition.
There's nothing in the spell description which states "Once this spell effect ends, any Frightened conditions caused by this spell likewise end." So you treat it as normal rules, which means a whole turn needs to lapse before it gets reduced.
Frightened is like any condition: By default it doesn't last more than the spell duration.In order for Dirge to work as you suggest Bidi, Dirge would have to specifically state that the frightened condition goes away when Dirge ends. It doesn't though."The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts."
Here's the line you're looking for.
And the spell effect is to cause Frightened and prevent it from decaying.
Once caused, Frightened is exactly like any other effect or condition (or damage) - it has its own rules unless those are explicitly preempted by the spell.
[citation needed]
If we went by this ruling, the Fear spell is useless and does nothing because Fear has no duration listed, and your argument is "Conditions don't last longer than a spell's duration." When a spell has no duration, what happens? Nothing. Because the spell does nothing, because it has no duration.
So good job breaking the game.
Frightened is like any condition: By default it doesn't last more than the spell duration.In order for Dirge to work as you suggest Bidi, Dirge would have to specifically state that the frightened condition goes away when Dirge ends. It doesn't though."The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts."
Here's the line you're looking for.
And the spell effect is to cause Frightened and prevent it from decaying.
Once caused, Frightened is exactly like any other effect or condition (or damage) - it has its own rules unless those are explicitly preempted by the spell.
[citation needed]
If we went by this ruling, the Fear spell is useless and does nothing because Fear has no duration listed, and your argument is "Conditions don't last longer than a spell's duration." When a spell has no duration, what happens? Nothing. Because the spell does nothing, because it has no duration.
So good job breaking the game.
Also all damage spells, but especially those with a duration, like Wall of Fire.
In order for Dirge to work as you suggest Bidi, Dirge would have to specifically state that the frightened condition goes away when Dirge ends. It doesn't though."The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts."
Here's the line you're looking for.
That doesn't counter his statement, though. The spell effect is a 30 foot emanation that applies Frightened 1 to enemies in the area, which means the emanation is what is affected by the duration, not the Frightened condition.
There's nothing in the spell description which states "Once this spell effect ends, any Frightened conditions caused by this spell likewise end." So you treat it as normal rules, which means a whole turn needs to lapse before it gets reduced.
Exactly so. By contrast, Darkened Eyes specifies precisely how long the target's vision is affected. Dirge specifies precisely how long the emanation lasts, that emanation then applies a condition which has a specified duration.
Yeah, I think I'm convinced Frightened has to tick down as normal, even though that is bananas good. What a feat.
It is important to note, I think, that Buffing and Debuffing are what the bard primarily does. She's not going to be a big damage dealer on par with a wizard, sorcerer, rogue, fighter, barbarian, etc. She's not going to be a big time healer like a cleric. She's not going to stand up front and soak damage like a fighter or champion, etc. What she will do though is buff and debuff. Granted, there are damage dealing abilities available to the bard, not going to suggest otherwise, but the bread and butter of the class, at least as it pertains to combat (which is always going to be a pretty significant element of the game) is buffing/debuffing.
Frightened is like any condition: By default it doesn't last more than the spell duration.In order for Dirge to work as you suggest Bidi, Dirge would have to specifically state that the frightened condition goes away when Dirge ends. It doesn't though."The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts."
Here's the line you're looking for.
And the spell effect is to cause Frightened and prevent it from decaying.
Once caused, Frightened is exactly like any other effect or condition (or damage) - it has its own rules unless those are explicitly preempted by the spell.
[citation needed]
If we went by this ruling, the Fear spell is useless and does nothing because Fear has no duration listed, and your argument is "Conditions don't last longer than a spell's duration." When a spell has no duration, what happens? Nothing. Because the spell does nothing, because it has no duration.
So good job breaking the game.
First, I'm quoting the rules. If you're not happy with them, I'm not the one you have to speak with.
Second, Fear has a duration.Anyway, I'm just saying that what you think is true is not the only truth. There is a very special rule that handle this situation and it's not clear enough to be able to rule one way or another in the case of Dirge of Doom. But it is clear enough to rule one way or another in the case of many other spells. In my opinion, we need a FAQ entry specifically for Dirge of Doom.
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In my opinion, we need a FAQ entry specifically for Dirge of Doom.
The spell effect in question is not Frightened 1.
The spell effect is an area that causes creatures to become Frightened 1 and prevents Frightened from degrading below 1.
After the spells duration ends, there is no longer an area that causes creatures to become Frightened 1 or which prevents Frightened from degrading.
I do not find this to be at all unclear - I think you are reading too much into the spell and inferring items which are not actually stated.
The damage caused by Wall of Fire does not disappear when the spell ends, and the section of the rules you you quoted does not differentiate between Conditions or Damage - it just says the effects of the spell. Not the consequences of the spell.
The implications of your interpretation don't really work in the game at large.
First, I'm quoting the rules. If you're not happy with them, I'm not the one you have to speak with.
Second, Fear has a duration.
First: Nothing you cite says that the condition caused by the effect of the spell ends when the emanation ends. If the devs wanted the frightened effect to end when the emanation ends, or when the target leaves the emanation, they would have said "The target is Frightened 1 while within the emanation." But that is not at all what the spell says.
Second: Fear has 4 possible outcomes:
1. Nothing Happens.
2. Target is Frightened 1.
3. Target is Frightened 2.
4. Target is Frightened 3 and fleeing for 1 round.
If we apply your reasoning on Dirge to Fear you get:
1. Nothing happens.
2. Target is Frightened 1, but now Fear is immediately over so Target is frightened 0.
3. Target is Frightened 2, but now Fear is immediately over so Target becomes Frightened 0.
4. Target is Frightened 3 and Fleeing for 1 round. But, Fear is now over so the Frightened part goes away though target still flees for 1 round. At best, on a critical fail, target is frightened 1 (while fleeing) based on your arguments here because there is nothing otherwise keeping the fear effect going.
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I think the Conditions from Afflictions Rule applies appropriately here to show the intent.
Conditions from Afflictions
An affliction might give you conditions with a longer or
shorter duration than the affliction. For instance, if an
affliction causes you to be drained but has a maximum
duration of 5 minutes, you remain drained even after the
affliction ends, as is normal for the drained condition. Or,
you might succeed at the flat check to remove persistent
damage you took from an ongoing affliction, but you would
still need to attempt saves to remove the affliction itself, and
failing one might give you new persistent damage.
Frightened has its own duration that does not rely on the Spell that caused it, so it persists after the Spell has ended, unless the Spell specifies otherwise.
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In my opinion, we need a FAQ entry specifically for Dirge of Doom.The spell effect in question is not Frightened 1.
Yes it is. Everything you says after that is shenanigans to try to get an advantage out of a spell. Dirge of Doom has 2 effects: Frightened 1 and the fact that you can't reduce your Frightened condition.
And damage is also covered by this rule. You are trying to find issues where there are none.And these are the rules. They have to be applied as is. If you need some weird interpretation to apply the rules chances are high that you are the one not on the side of RAW.
In my opinion, we need a FAQ entry specifically for Dirge of Doom.The spell effect in question is not Frightened 1.
Yes it is. Everything you says after that is shenanigans to try to get an advantage out of a spell. Dirge of Doom has 2 effects: Frightened 1 and the fact that you can't reduce your Frightened condition.
And damage is also covered by this rule. You are trying to find issues where there are none.
And these are the rules. They have to be applied as is. If you need some weird interpretation to apply the rules chances are high that you are the one not on the side of RAW.
I'm not hearing an explanation of how your interpretation doesn't make damage dealt by Wall of Fire temporary. It meets all of the qualifications you've laid out, and the rules you quoted for duration don't differentiate between damage, conditions, and other effects of spells.
The key thing here is, the Effect of Wall of Fire is the Wall of Fire it creates. The damage and consequences are unrelated to the duration.
The effect of Dirge of Doom is to create an area where foes suffer Frightened and it cannot be reduced. Those go away when the duration ends, but creatures affected are still Frightened. It would require errata for it to be otherwise.
Theres nothing that implies otherwise anywhere in the rules as written.
The spell sets an area that gives a condition(that has its own rules for resolving) and prevents the usual end of that condition while in range.
Even if you mix and match with other things or try to swap back and forth with something else(the second round all creatures would lose frighten so I don't see why you would do that barring some very specific initiative situations), I don't see dirge being crazy good, it's got some good uses. The issue is short range on a squishy class, you debuff multiple targets then in my games you just jumped to the front of the "needs to be put into the ground" list for the enemies. So like many things, there will be good times to use it and not so good times, risk versus reward.
After re-reading a few sections I think I am going to flip on this one and recant my previous stance. It would seem to me now that a creature frightened by Dirge of Doom or Fear would lose that condition if they, for whatever reason, cease to be effected by the spell that causes the fright.
The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts.
Spells that last for more than an instant have a Duration
entry. A spell might last until the start or end of a turn, for
some number of rounds, for minutes, or even longer. If a
spell’s duration is given in rounds, the number of rounds
remaining decreases by 1 at the start of each of the
spellcaster’s turns, ending when the duration reaches 0.
Some spells have effects that remain even after the
spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part
of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical.
For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has
no duration might deafen someone for a time, even
permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted
because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured
by other magic, such as restore senses).
Fear does have a Duration, though it is listed as "varies". Compare to Feeblemind on the same page of the CRB. Feeblemind also lists it's duration as "varies" and inflicts a condition contingent on the result of it's save. The only difference between the two spells is that Feeblemind stipulates exactly how long you are stupefied for whereas Fear only states that you become Frightened X, with Fleeing for 1 round being added on a critical failure. Would you argue that if you were to dispel Feeblemind, the target would continue to be Stupefied for the listed duration? That if you cast Remove Curse on such an afflicted creature who had critically failed it's save, they would continue to be an NPC, and wouldn't regain their intelligence?
I believe that the intent here is that Fear the spell lasts as long as the Frightened condition it inflicts based on it's save. Once the Frightened condition ends so does Fear and vice versa.
This section addresses additional effects that aren't directly a byproduct of the spell's magic. I don't think this applies to Frightened when speaking of Fear though, as what would the Effect of Fear be if not Frightened?
Extrapolate this out and I believe that Dirge of Doom behaves similarly: it is active throughout the casting Bard's turn as it has a duration of 1 round, and would end if they cast another composition spell without harmonize or if Dirge of Doom were to be dispelled or countersong-ed. When Dirge ends, so would it's effect. I believe the, "can’t reduce their frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area," rider is there to prevent things like Aura of Courage or the Fighter's Bravery from reducing the fear effect. So a creature moving out of the area would also lose Frightened 1. This line was what led me to mistakenly believe that the creature had to shake their frightened condition naturally, which really doesn't make sense upon reflection.
This brings Dirge of Doom in line with the other composition spells, requiring the effected parties to be in their radius to be effected, which seems perfectly fair to me.