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I'm not sure how "Good" Dirge of Doom is is really relevant here. Its OK, even if its presented at the maximum power level presented here. Unlike Inspire Courage/Heroics, its easily replaceable.
Frightened is a good condition, but its available to literally all characters at all tiers of play, can be applied by first level spells on successful saves, and can be applied at more debilitating levels by bards alongside other beneficial effects (like damage dealt) by bards themselves.
Status bonuses to attack and damage rolls are less common, require high level proper spell slots as their only alternative to Compositions, and are not available to all (or most) classes.
Even being able to benefit from lingering Frightened from Dirge isn't presenting a tangible benefit that the bard can't get elsewhere - they can easily get Inspire plus Frightened via Demoralize or Magic in any given turn anyways.
Unless a bard I were running was the ONLY source of Frightened in the party (yet to see such a party), Dirge of Doom is a solid "maybe" option at best. I have lots of ways already to do frightened, and while Dirge has some solid benefits, its not solving new problems for me I couldn't solve otherwise.
Its amazing on paper, but only good in practice imo.
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"Extrapolate this out and I believe that Dirge of Doom behaves similarly: it is active throughout the casting Bard's turn as it has a duration of 1 round, and would end if they cast another composition spell without harmonize or if Dirge of Doom were to be dispelled or countersong-ed. When Dirge ends, so would it's effect. I believe the, "can’t reduce their frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area," rider is there to prevent things like Aura of Courage or the Fighter's Bravery from reducing the fear effect. So a creature moving out of the area would also lose Frightened 1. This line was what led me to mistakenly believe that the creature had to shake their frightened condition naturally, which really doesn't make sense upon reflection."
So what you are saying is that when the devs said:
"Foes within the area are frightened 1. They can’t reduce their
frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area."
What they really meant was:
"Foes within the area are frightened 1 for the duration of the spell or until they leave the area, whichever comes first."
Those two statements are not at all the same. If this were a statute (and yes, I realize it is not), common statutory interpretation by a Court would not give those two statements the same meaning.
So what you are saying is that when the devs said:
"Foes within the area are frightened 1. They can’t reduce their
frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area."What they really meant was:
"Foes within the area are frightened 1 for the duration of the spell or until they leave the area, whichever comes first."
Those two statements are not at all the same. If this were a statute (and yes, I realize it is not), common statutory interpretation by a Court would not give those two statements the same meaning.
Those two statements are not mutually exclusive, once you understand how spells and effects work.
I am merely stating that the effect of Fear is Frightened. If you remove Fear, then you also remove Frightened. If Fear did not have a duration and only stated that the target(s) became Frightened, then I would agree that you could not dispel Fear to remove Frightened.
Since Fear has a duration, as does Dirge of Doom, their effects only last for that duration, and any target that ceases to be under their effects stop suffering from their effects.
Fear is a bit weird, as it doesn't specify how long you are Frightened. In this case the only sensible thing is to default to Frightened's innate rule: You reduce your frightened condition by 1 at the end of you turn. Once Frightened ends, the effects of Fear have ended thus Fear ends.
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That's just it though. Frightened is a condition with specific rules for how long it lasts, only to be changed if a spell or effect specifically states otherwise. In other words, the specific wording of Frightened, trumps the general wording of spell duration. If they wanted frightened to last for less time in the case of Dirge of Doom, they would have to specifically state so. Instead they actually added wording that increases the duration of frightened (in that they cannot get rid of it while still within the emanation). Ruling otherwise renders the language under Frightened regarding its duration meaningless.
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After re-reading a few sections I think I am going to flip on this one and recant my previous stance. It would seem to me now that a creature frightened by Dirge of Doom or Fear would lose that condition if they, for whatever reason, cease to be effected by the spell that causes the fright.
The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts.
Spells that last for more than an instant have a Duration
entry. A spell might last until the start or end of a turn, for
some number of rounds, for minutes, or even longer. If a
spell’s duration is given in rounds, the number of rounds
remaining decreases by 1 at the start of each of the
spellcaster’s turns, ending when the duration reaches 0.
Some spells have effects that remain even after the
spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part
of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical.
For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has
no duration might deafen someone for a time, even
permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted
because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured
by other magic, such as restore senses).Fear does have a Duration, though it is listed as "varies". Compare to Feeblemind on the same page of the CRB. Feeblemind also lists it's duration as "varies" and inflicts a condition contingent on the result of it's save. The only difference between the two spells is that Feeblemind stipulates exactly how long you are stupefied for whereas Fear only states that you become Frightened X, with Fleeing for 1 round being added on a critical failure. Would you argue that if you were to dispel Feeblemind, the target would continue to be Stupefied for the listed duration? That if you cast Remove Curse on such an afflicted creature who had critically failed it's save, they would continue to be an NPC, and wouldn't regain their intelligence?
I believe that the intent here is that Fear the spell lasts as long as the Frightened condition it inflicts...
Feeblemind has to specify how long you are Stupefied for, because Stupefied doesn't have its own built in Duration. Frightened does. You are not comparing like Conditions.
Persistent Damage would be a more fair Comparison. Most Spells don't specify how long Persistent Damage lasts, because they don't have to. It lasts until you Succeed at your Flat Check.
That's just it though. Frightened is a condition with specific rules for how long it lasts, only to be changed if a spell or effect specifically states otherwise. In other words, the specific wording of Frightened, trumps the general wording of spell duration. If they wanted frightened to last for less time in the case of Dirge of Doom, they would have to specifically state so. Instead they actually added wording that increases the duration of frightened (in that they cannot get rid of it while still within the emanation). Ruling otherwise renders the language under Frightened regarding its duration meaningless.
I generally agree with this when frightened is inflicted by anything but a Spell. But once you have a condition that is inflicted by a spell, that makes that condition contingent on that spell being active unless the spell either doesn't have a duration, or inflicts the condition as a byproduct of it's effect, as in the deafened example.
If you were to cast Dispel on a creature who has had Fear cast on them, and for the sake of argument we'll say they critically failed their check so are frightened 3 and Fleeing, what happens? Can you dispel the spell? If so what effect does that have? None?
Dirge of Doom operates similarly, but instead of having a duration dependent on the frightened condition, it is simply 1 round. Are you saying that no matter what, being effected by Dirge of Doom inflicts frightened 1 for 2 turns against a foe with no save or any way of combating it?
Then if you really want to mince words, there is the wording of Dirge of Doom, Demoralize and Fear:
Foes within the area are Frightened 1.
Compare to Demoralize:
Critical Success The target becomes frightened 2.
Success The target becomes frightened 1.
And Fear says that the target:
Success The target is frightened 1.
Failure The target is frightened 2.
Critical Failure The target is frightened 3 and fleeing for 1
round.
Comparing either Dirge of Doom or Fear directly to Demoralize doesn't really pan out. Demoralize has no duration, and states that the target, "becomes frightened," with no further need for Demoralize to "be". Dirge states that foes within the area, "are frightened," which implies that if they are not within the area they are not. Fear states that the target, "is Frightened," which implies that under the effects of Fear they are Frightened.
Simply put, the effects of a spell with a duration only effect a target so long as the spell effects the target. If you defeat the spell with Dispel Magic, the effect ends. If you defeat the effect with some other curative, like say the Fighters Bravery, the spell ends.
Feeblemind has to specify how long you are Stupefied for, because Stupefied doesn't have its own built in Duration. Frightened does. You are not comparing like Conditions.
Persistent Damage would be a more fair Comparison. Most Spells don't specify how long Persistent Damage lasts, because they don't have to. It lasts until you Succeed at your Flat Check.
Is there a spell that only inflicts Persistent Damage that has a Duration of "Varies"?
You are correct that Feeblemind does specify how long you are stupified, but that is not as strong an argument as you think it is. Fear doesn't specify how long you are Frightened because it does not have to for the exact reason you say, frightened has a built in duration. But Fear derives it's duration from the built in duration of frightened.
Okay, I honestly picked Feeblemind because it was literally on the same page as Fear. But compare to Power Word Stun, which has a duration of "varies" and can stun based on the level of the target up to 1d6 rounds.
Stunned has a built in timer, Frightened has a built in timer. So are you saying that Power Word Stun can't be dispelled? Because I'm pretty confident that it can. What would be the point of having a duration on Power Word Stun if it could not?
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Power Word Stun specifically defines the duration of its stun in the text of the spell itself - overriding the default duration/decay rate of stunned where relevant and contradictory to those rules. Exactly like how dirge prevents Frightened from decaying below Frightened 1... as well, Stunned in this case is the direct effect of the spell, so you can dispel it and remove stunned. If it created a wall or other effect that then caused Stunned, you could remove that effect- but not the secondary consequences if caused.
If you Dispel Dirge of Doom, you prevent new foes entering the (former) area from becoming Feightened - you no more removed Frightened from characters already in the area than you heal characters damaged by a wall of Fire by dispelling it...
Power Word Stun specifically defines the duration of its stun in the text of the spell itself - overriding the default duration/decay rate of stunned where relevant and contradictory to those rules. Exactly like how dirge prevents Frightened from decaying below Frightened 1...
If you Dispel Dirge of Doom, you prevent new foes entering the (former) area from becoming Feightened - you no more removed Frightened from characters already in the area than you heal characters damaged by a wall of Fire by dispelling it...
Power Word Stun actually does both. Against higher level targets, they become Stunned X, and against lower level targets they are Stunned for X rounds. Both cases are handled within the Stunned Condition I'll note.
And yes, you are preventing new foes from entering the area. But you are also removing the spell effect that had effected any foes in the area. Comparing Dirge of Doom to Wall of Fire is apples to Oranges. Wall of Fire doesn't deal conditional damage that only applies while the Wall is active. It just deals damage. Dirge of Doom applies a condition as it's effect. A better comparison would be literally any curse, which has an affliction that is removed when you remove the curse.
Or do you never lose the effect of a curse, despite having removed said curse?
If a character failed their save against Baleful Polymorph, and someone used Remove Curse on that creature, would they remain morphed until 1 minute passed or they passed their Will Save?
What is the difference between Baleful Polymorph and Fear? There really isn't one when you break it down. They both have a duration of "varies" and they both inflict a condition. The Curse trait doesn't specify that it's effects end when the curse is removed, so why would you assume that this was true?
Dirge of Doom operates similarly, but instead of having a duration dependent on the frightened condition, it is simply 1 round. Are you saying that no matter what, being effected by Dirge of Doom inflicts frightened 1 for 2 turns against a foe with no save or any way of combating it?
Not at all. As specifically stated by Dirge of Doom, if the foe leaves the emanation then it can tick down as normal.
As for you comparison to Demoralize, I think that actually makes my case stronger. You are suggesting that something that costs both a feat and then composition cast is markedly worse than something that basically everyone can do. Frankly, if merely leaving the emanation were to remove the effect and if the effect automatically ends at the start of the Bard's next turn, Dirge of Doom would be a pretty horrible spell. For starters, the only time it would be worth it to cast would be if there were at minimum two foes in the area. To do this though the bard is placing herself almost certainly within attacking range of those two foes, which is a very risky proposition given how squishy the bard is going to be. If either of those foes has a ranged attack then its a really stupid move on the bard's part as the foe just laughs at the bard's feeble attempt and if intelligent probably mocks the bard for not using demoralize instead. So now you've rendered an activity that requires both a feat and a composition to be an extremely corner case use.
Honestly, why would you ever use Dirge over Inspire Courage or Inspire Defense? I can't think of a single reason to do so in that case, and Inspire Courage doesn't require any investment other than a composition and is free in character creation. Heck, even with Harmonize you are better off going with Inspire Courage and Inspire Defense and saving the feat that you would have used on Dirge. You are much, much better off going with the less costly (resource wise) compositions and Demoralize. Especially since Dirge puts off Harmonize for another couple of levels. Seriously, why would you actually pick Dirge given this ruling? I mean, I realize that a lot of options are less than ideal, but this seems would be a pretty significant less than ideal decision. Even the language penalty of Demoralize can be compensated for with a feat if you are concerned enough about it.
Dirge of Doom operates similarly, but instead of having a duration dependent on the frightened condition, it is simply 1 round. Are you saying that no matter what, being effected by Dirge of Doom inflicts frightened 1 for 2 turns against a foe with no save or any way of combating it?
Not at all. As specifically stated by Dirge of Doom, if the foe leaves the emanation then it can tick down as normal.
As for you comparison to Demoralize, I think that actually makes my case stronger. You are suggesting that something that costs both a feat and then composition cast is markedly worse than something that basically everyone can do. Frankly, if merely leaving the emanation were to remove the effect and if the effect automatically ends at the start of the Bard's next turn, Dirge of Doom would be a pretty horrible spell. For starters, the only time it would be worth it to cast would be if there were at minimum two foes in the area. To do this though the bard is placing herself almost certainly within attacking range of those two foes, which is a very risky proposition given how squishy the bard is going to be. If either of those foes has a ranged attack then its a really stupid move on the bard's part as the foe just laughs at the bard's feeble attempt and if intelligent probably mocks the bard for not using demoralize instead. So now you've rendered an activity that requires both a feat and a composition to be an extremely corner case use.
Honestly, why would you ever use Dirge over Inspire Courage or Inspire Defense? I can't think of a single reason to do so in that case, and Inspire Courage doesn't require any investment other than a composition and is free in character creation. Heck, even with Harmonize you are better off going with Inspire Courage and Inspire Defense and saving the feat that you would have used on Dirge. You are much, much better off going with the less costly (resource wise) compositions and Demoralize. Especially since Dirge puts off Harmonize for...
Actually, that's not what Dirge says at all. Dirge never mentions what happens to a foe that leaves the area: It doesn't have to. If a creature leaves the area of a spell that has an area, they are no longer effected by that spell unless otherwise noted. Dirge doesn't state that it continues effecting someone that leaves it. Neither does Triple Time. Does an ally that leaves Triple Times effect continue to benefit from Triple Time?
Dirge has several benefits over Demoralize. There is no save or check involved. Enemies can't become immune to it. It effects everyone in it's area for 1 action. Demoralize is something that anyone can do, but does require some skill feat investment at minimum to really be effective.
As to a Bard having to position themselves closer to enemies, well sure. Slightly closer than if they are supporting their allies with Inspire Courage or Inspire Defense, both of which are the same range, and require the Bard to be essentially in the same spot they would need to be in to use Dirge effectively. Unless you have an all ranged party I suppose.
Also: Why would Paizo design every other composition cantrip to only effect targets within their radius then make Dirge the sole outlier? Again, I believe the only reason that Dirge states that enemies within the area can't reduce the value is to prevent foes with Bravery style effects from bypassing it.
Dirge does not say that enemies that leave the area remain frightened. It doesn't say that the enemy is even mundanely frightened. You are mistaking magical fear for mundane fear. The two are (slightly) different.
Edit: My bad on the Ranges of Inspire Courage and Defense. Haven't played with a Bard in a while.
Still doesn't require the bard to be any closer than a Cleric trying to use Bless or Bane effectively. You could even say that Dirge of Doom is the superior Bane in just about every aspect. And that is a spell that requires a slot, not an all day cantrip.
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You are all making this WAY overcomplicated. Dirge adds a specific Condition value and prevents it from decaying while they're within the area of effect.
If they leave the area it does NOT cause the Condition to be removed but it DOES allow it to decay normally which is otherwise prevented if they're in the area. If that were the intent it would state as such, otherwise, you're left with an enemy that is Frightened 1 until the end of their own turn at which point it will be removed if they're no longer in the area of the Dirge.
I'm really struggling to understand how people are getting tripped up by this, you're all getting lost in the minutiae and general rules of durations and at the same time wholesale disregarding how the Frightened Condition itself is universally handled via end-or-round decay.
Actually, that's not what Dirge says at all. Dirge never mentions what happens to a foe that leaves the area: It doesn't have to. If a creature leaves the area of a spell that has an area, they are no longer effected by that spell unless otherwise noted. Dirge doesn't state that it continues effecting someone that leaves it. Neither does Triple Time. Does an ally that leaves Triple Times effect continue to benefit from Triple Time?
It's funny as you kind of convinced me back. I was defending the fact that both interpretations were correct. But the fact that ruling Dirge of Doom to work that way would make it work like all the other bardic compositions is in my opinion a strong argument towards RAI.
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Dirge would have no advantage over inspire defense. Seriously. Inspire defense gives a bonus to ac and saves in a larger area for a longer duration AND gives resistance to physical damage. The bonus to AC and saves is the same as the penalty from frightened.
If it were to be interpreted as you suggest you are literally getting a shorter effect in a smaller area over a lower level (feat-wise) composition. By far, the better play would be inspire courage plus Demoralize, especially since a bard is going to have a fairly easy time getting Demoralize to work.
The whole argument is premised on the position that the general rule of spell duration Trump's the specific rule of frightened. But specific trumps general, not the other way around.
Seriously what would be the advayin ever choosing dirge over defense? To make it more likely the foe slips on a slippery surface? Make it more difficult for a for to climb up a wall? These are extremely corner case scenarios.
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I've quickly read through the posts, so maybe I missed it, BUT I don't think anyone took into account the general rule for conditions:
"Conditions are persistent; when you’re affected by a condition, its effects last until the stated duration ends, the condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition cause it to end." CRB 458
Dirge Of Doom has no "duration" stated, so fork 1 is not applicable.
No one is talking about removing the condition (like casting remove fear), so that's not applicable to the discussion.
So we are left with the third fork - its effects last until the terms dictated in the condition cause it to end.
So the Frightened condition "PERSISTS" until it goes away per the Frightened condition rules, which is that it reduces by 1 at the end of your turn. CRB 620
So, you move OUT of the Dirge of Doom radius, you are still Frightened, then you reduce your Frightened 1 by 1 at the END of your turn, so are no longer Frightened, then the next character takes their turn (so you are not frightened when opponents act (unless they took a reaction during your turn). If you choose to stay within the radius, you remain Frightened as the spell prevents you from reducing your Frightened condition.
You are all making this WAY overcomplicated. Dirge adds a specific Condition value and prevents it from decaying while they're within the area of effect.
If they leave the area it does NOT cause the Condition to be removed but it DOES allow it to decay normally which is otherwise prevented if they're in the area. If that were the intent it would state as such, otherwise, you're left with an enemy that is Frightened 1 until the end of their own turn at which point it will be removed if they're no longer in the area of the Dirge.
I'm really struggling to understand how people are getting tripped up by this, you're all getting lost in the minutiae and general rules of durations and at the same time wholesale disregarding how the Frightened Condition itself is universally handled via end-or-round decay.
This isn't accurate. Dirge doesn't add a condition. You have a condition while you are effected by Dirge. The same could be said about any emanation effect that has an effect. You wouldn't argue that an ally walking out of Inspire Courage would retain their bonus to hit and damage if they left the emanation would you? Why exactly does Fear have a duration if all it did was give you the Frightened Condition? Why wouldn't it simply be an instantaneous spell?
Dirge would have no advantage over inspire defense. Seriously. Inspire defense gives a bonus to ac and saves in a larger area for a longer duration AND gives resistance to physical damage. The bonus to AC and saves is the same as the penalty from frightened.
This isn't true either. Dirge has plenty of advantages over Inspire Defense. It is just as useful offensively as it is defensively, applies a debuff to your opponent rather than a non-stacking Status buff to your ally.
If it were to be interpreted as you suggest you are literally getting a shorter effect in a smaller area over a lower level (feat-wise) composition. By far, the better play would be inspire courage plus Demoralize, especially since a bard is going to have a fairly easy time getting Demoralize to work.
It is also one of the only offensive composition cantrips the Bard has access to. Know what the range of the other offensive composition is? 30 feet. Weird that.
Demoralize also has it's own issues. You can only use it once per opponent for example, as they become temporarily immune. Unless you take at least Intimidating Glare you must share a language or take a hefty -4 penalty. And it has a chance of failure in the first place. Dirge of Doom has no save or check and your opponent never becomes immune to it.
The whole argument is premised on the position that the general rule of spell duration Trump's the specific rule of frightened. But specific trumps general, not the other way around.
I'd actually argue that Dirge of Doom and Fear would be the Specific Rules that trump the general rule that the Frightened condition is. They impose the limitations of Spells upon said condition, just as Power Word Stun imposes the same limitations on Stunned.
Seriously what would be the advayin ever choosing dirge over defense? To make it more likely the foe slips on a slippery surface? Make it more difficult for a for to climb up a wall? These are extremely corner case scenarios.
There are plenty of advantages to applying Frightened to your opponents. It stacks with Flat Footed for one, and doesn't take up the Status Bonus to AC/Saves that your party may very well have other abilities that cover. It applies to Every one of the opponents checks and DC's making everything 5% worse for them. You are not only increasing your allies defense by that 5%, but making hits 5% easier and Crits 5% easier not to mention any save based effects you may want to slap the opponent with. I'm currently playing a Fear based fighter and applying Frightened to opponents is Overwhelmingly good. Stacking that bonus with Flat Footed from a flank is devastating.
In a vacuum yes you must be closer to your opponents. But in practice, how many maps allow for a bard to realistically be 50+ feet away from any opponent? How often do you find yourself so far outside of 30 feet from your opponent that Dirge's range even matters? And if you are that far away, how effective are you really being? An Inspire Courage/Defense and a crossbow shot? Maybe a Daze if you're feeling frisky?
I've quickly read through the posts, so maybe I missed it, BUT I don't think anyone took into account the general rule for conditions:
"Conditions are persistent; when you’re affected by a condition, its effects last until the stated duration ends, the condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition cause it to end." CRB 458
Dirge Of Doom has no "duration" stated, so fork 1 is not applicable.
No one is talking about removing the condition (like casting remove fear), so that's not applicable to the discussion.
So we are left with the third fork - its effects last until the terms dictated in the condition cause it to end.
So the Frightened condition "PERSISTS" until it goes away per the Frightened condition rules, which is that it reduces by 1 at the end of your turn. CRB 620
So, you move OUT of the Dirge of Doom radius, you are still Frightened, then you reduce your Frightened 1 by 1 at the END of your turn, so are no longer Frightened, then the next character takes their turn (so you are not frightened when opponents act (unless they took a reaction during your turn). If you choose to stay within the radius, you remain Frightened as the spell prevents you from reducing your Frightened condition.
Dirge of Doom has no Duration?
DIRGE OF DOOM CANTRIP 3
UNCOMMON BARD CANTRIP COMPOSITION EMOTION ENCHANTMENT
FEAR MENTAL
Cast [one-action] verbal
Area 30-foot emanation
Duration 1 round
Weird. Maybe I'm imagining that Duration there...
When you cease to be a valid target for a spell, you are no longer effected by the spell unless the spell specifically says you are. If you walk out of an emanation you are no longer a valid target. So if you walk out of Dirge of Doom, you are no longer Frightened.
Dirge of Doom and Fear don't give the target Frightened. They are spells that have Frightened as their effect. Remove the Spell, you remove the effect.
I certainly believed that last bit, I posted as much on page one with enough conviction. But I have since realized that I was mistaken. Spell Effects are only effective while the spell is effective unless otherwise noted. If you are no longer under effects of Dirge of Doom, then you are no longer subject to it's effects. That effect is Frightened.
Frightened doesn't reduce AC it reduces DCs and checks. As for fear, the duration applies to fleeing.
Frightened is the specific rule. It is a condition with specific rules for when it reduces/ends. It is not an effect. The rules for spells and effects being cited are general.
It would be like saying that Ancient Elf (lost omens character guide) doesn't grant a multiclass feat because you have to be level 2 to get a multiclass feat even though ancient elf specifically says that doesn't matter.
Again, at best, almost all the time Dirge will do little more than cause an enemy to use a stride action if used the way you suggest. Seems super weak as a debuff. Also your argument about offensive compositions is not only rather irrelevant (since the wording of Dirge and frightened Trump what other spells say) but also inaccurate. Inspire Courage is 60 feet for instance.
You say you rarely get 50 feet to work with. I suppose YMMV. It's not all that uncommon in my experience. More to the point, 30-50 feet is very common. Sure, it won't always be the case that you have that distance, but frequently.
Regardless though, the GM is always free to rule things the way he or she wants. If that's how you want to rule it in your game that's certainly your right. But mechanically speaking, you'll almost certainly end up with bards deciding instead to take harmonize and combine courage and defense. It's far better in all respects.
Frightened doesn't reduce AC it reduces DCs and checks. As for fear, the duration applies to fleeing.
AC is a DC.
Attack rolls are compared to a special difficulty class called an Armor Class (AC), which measures how hard it is for your foes to hit you with Strikes and other attack actions. Just like for any other check and DC, the result of an attack roll must meet or exceed your AC to be successful, which allows your foe to deal damage to you.
Frightened doesn't reduce AC it reduces DCs and checks. As for fear, the duration applies to fleeing.AC is a DC.
Attack rolls are compared to a special difficulty class called an Armor Class (AC), which measures how hard it is for your foes to hit you with Strikes and other attack actions. Just like for any other check and DC, the result of an attack roll must meet or exceed your AC to be successful, which allows your foe to deal damage to you.
Ah, I stand corrected. Thanks for the correction. It's still a worse option by far though if ruled as suggested. No real point to using Dirge over the combo of Courage and Defense. Or even just Defense really.
Frightened doesn't reduce AC it reduces DCs and checks. As for fear, the duration applies to fleeing.
AC is a DC.
Armor Class
Attack rolls are compared to a special difficulty class called
an Armor Class (AC), which measures how hard it is for
your foes to hit you with Strikes and other attack actions.
Just like for any other check and DC, the result of an
attack roll must meet or exceed your AC to be successful,
which allows your foe to deal damage to you.
So Frightened applies.
Edit: As to Fear's duration only applying to the Fleeing condition, why? I've heard that before too, but I don't recall ever seeing a reasoned argument supporting that. And why would Fear have a duration of "varies" if the options are no duration (meaning it would be the only spell with a duration that can also be instant) and 1 round on a Critical Failure.
Frightened is the specific rule. It is a condition with specific rules for when it reduces/ends. It is not an effect. The rules for spells and effects being cited are general.
I disagree. Dirge of Doom is the Specific Rule that you are applying to a creature, which uses and modifies the general rule that governs Frightened. The spell would be the "more specific" rule in this case, as it is the actual ability being used, and only references Frightened. And Conditions are frequently the Effect of various spells and abilities. It says so in the section titled Effects.
While a check might determine the overall impact or
strength of an effect, a check is not always part of creating
an effect. Casting a fly spell on yourself creates an effect
that allows you to soar through the air, but casting the spell
does not require a check. Conversely, using the Intimidate
skill to Demoralize a foe does require a check, and your
result on that check determines the effect’s outcome.
It would be like saying that Ancient Elf (lost omens character guide) doesn't grant a multiclass feat because you have to be level 2 to get a multiclass feat even though ancient elf specifically says that doesn't matter.
But Ancient Elf does specifically say that you gain said feat even though you don't meet it's level requirement...
Ancient Elf
In your long life, you’ve dabbled in many paths and many
styles. Choose a class other than your own. You gain the
multiclass dedication feat for that class, even though you
don’t meet its level prerequisite. You must still meet its other
prerequisites to gain the feat.
So I don't know what you are trying to say here. That somehow because one rule says something specifically bypasses a requirement for a feat, a spell doesn't have to specifically state that it has a useless duration? Or something?
Again, at best, almost all the time Dirge will do little more than cause an enemy to use a stride action if used the way you suggest. Seems super weak as a debuff. Also your argument about offensive compositions is not only rather irrelevant (since the wording of Dirge and frightened Trump what other spells say) but also inaccurate. Inspire Courage is 60 feet for instance.
So you are saying that taking up 1/3rd of your opponents actions, and possibly making them leave combat is... bad? And my only argument about offensive compositions was to point out that only 2 of the Bard's compositions effect the enemy directly. One applies Auto Frightened with no save and the other is a Death Effect. Both are 30 foot range. Interesting coincidence that.
And wait, so the wording of Dirge and Fear trump other rules, but you were JUST arguing that Frightened was the Specific rule that would trump the general rules... so what is true?
You say you rarely get 50 feet to work with. I suppose YMMV. It's not all that uncommon in my experience. More to the point, 30-50 feet is very common. Sure, it won't always be the case that you have that distance, but frequently.
Regardless though, the GM is always free to rule things the way he or she wants. If that's how you want to rule it in your game that's certainly your right. But mechanically speaking, you'll almost certainly end up with bards deciding instead to take harmonize and combine courage and defense. It's far better in all respects.
Yeah, YMMV is correct. But I disagree that spending a Focus Point to Harmonize the Inspires is superior to just spending 1 action to apply all but One of the benefits of both of those spells to whatever enemies are within, a frankly generous, 30 foot area. The only thing that Dirge doesn't do is add +1 to damage. It literally does everything else that both of those cantrips do together.
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Yeah, I think I'm convinced Frightened has to tick down as normal, even though that is bananas good. What a feat.It is important to note, I think, that Buffing and Debuffing are what the bard primarily does. She's not going to be a big damage dealer on par with a wizard, sorcerer, rogue, fighter, barbarian, etc. She's not going to be a big time healer like a cleric. She's not going to stand up front and soak damage like a fighter or champion, etc. What she will do though is buff and debuff. Granted, there are damage dealing abilities available to the bard, not going to suggest otherwise, but the bread and butter of the class, at least as it pertains to combat (which is always going to be a pretty significant element of the game) is buffing/debuffing.
Sure, sure. But bards also have maybe the best out of combat utility too, and their higher level damage options are legit terrifying. Our last bard nuked the board with a phantasmal calamity, wiping most of the enemies out and stopping what looked like a TPK, but failed his save and died himself. Bards are... So good.
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Frightened doesn't reduce AC it reduces DCs and checks. As for fear, the duration applies to fleeing.AC is a DC.
Armor Class
Attack rolls are compared to a special difficulty class called
an Armor Class (AC), which measures how hard it is for
your foes to hit you with Strikes and other attack actions.
Just like for any other check and DC, the result of an
attack roll must meet or exceed your AC to be successful,
which allows your foe to deal damage to you.So Frightened applies.
Edit: As to Fear's duration only applying to the Fleeing condition, why? I've heard that before too, but I don't recall ever seeing a reasoned argument supporting that. And why would Fear have a duration of "varies" if the options are no duration (meaning it would be the only spell with a duration that can also be instant) and 1 round on a Critical Failure.
Frightened is the specific rule. It is a condition with specific rules for when it reduces/ends. It is not an effect. The rules for spells and effects being cited are general.I disagree. Dirge of Doom is the Specific Rule that you are applying to a creature, which uses and modifies the general rule that governs Frightened. The spell would be the "more specific" rule in this case, as it is the actual ability being used, and only references Frightened. And Conditions are frequently the Effect of various spells and abilities. It says so in the section titled Effects.
While a check might determine the overall impact or
strength of an effect, a check is not always part of creating
an effect. Casting a fly spell on yourself creates an effect
that allows you to soar through the air, but casting the spell
does not require a check. Conversely, using the Intimidate
skill to Demoralize a foe does require a check, and your
result on that check determines the effect’s outcome.It would...
Yeah I caught the part about AC, my bad.
That said, you are literally arguing that the specific wording of Frightened doesn't apply because of the general rule of spell duration. That's where my point about ancient elf comes in. Both ancient elf and frightened have specific wording that is contrary to certain general rules, yet you claim the general rules (duration) trump one while general rules do not trump the other.
Dirge applies a condition. That condition has specific rules for ending it. Dirge's specific wording actually extends the condition potentially rather than reducing it. Nothing in frightened ends the condition by having the foe move. Nothing in Dirge does either. Nothing in Dirge says it ends at start of next bard turn either. You are relying on the general rule of duration, which is why I personally disagree. Also Dirge doesn't apply the damage resistance, so it really wouldn't be as good.
Regardless, as I said the GM is always free to rule how he or she wants.
That said, you are literally arguing that the specific wording of Frightened doesn't apply because of the general rule of spell duration. That's where my point about ancient elf comes in. Both ancient elf and frightened have specific wording that is contrary to certain general rules, yet you claim the general rules (duration) trump one while general rules do not trump the other.
Dirge applies a condition. That condition has specific rules for ending it. Dirge's specific wording actually extends the condition potentially rather than reducing it. Nothing in frightened ends the condition by having the foe move. Nothing in Dirge does either. Nothing in Dirge says it ends at start of next bard turn either. You are relying on the general rule of duration, which is why I personally disagree. Also Dirge doesn't apply the damage resistance, so it really wouldn't be as good.
Regardless, as I said the GM is always free to rule how he or she wants.
I am arguing that Frightened wouldn't be the "specific" rule in this case. It is the general rule. Dirge or Fear alter the way that you apply Frightened to include all of their own limitations. In Fear's case it can be dispelled. In Dirge's case it can be dispelled and has a specific duration. But we can throw this entire argument out really: Even if you conclude that Frightened is the "Specific Rule" that trump's the general in this case, Frightened has a provision for that.
Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your
turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases
by 1.
I would argue that in Dirge of Doom's case, the spell's duration is specifying otherwise. And Fear uses the duration of Frightened as it's defacto duration anyway. Still waiting on someone to provide a good argument for why Fear has a duration at all if it is not referencing your Frightened Value.
You are correct in one regard. The DM is perfectly able to rule as they see fit. That at least I agree with.
You are correct that frightened says at the end of each of your turns, the value of the frightened condition decreases by 1 unless otherwise specified. You are also correct that Dirge specifies otherwise. It specifies that it doesn't decrease if you are still in the emanation. The "unless specified otherwise" refers directly to reducing the value of frightened at the end of your turn.
As Captain Zoom points out above, conditions are persistent with specific rules for reducing/eliminating them. Dirge applies the condition. The rules for duration are general whereas the rule for getting rid of frightened is specific.
When the bard casts Dirge, you then have to look to the specific rule for frightened to see what it does since frightened is a condition and as such, persistent. Frightened says specifically how to reduce/eliminate it. Dirge provides a specific instance in which frightened doesn't reduce as normal. The duration of Dirge states how long the area in question prevents frightened from being reduced. In order to rule that Dirge causes the frightened condition to go away at the start of the Bard's next turn, you have to turn to the general rules for duration.
Likewise, leaving the area doesn't immediately end the frightened condition, but it does allow it to tick down at the end of turn which Dirge would otherwise specifically provide an exception for.
You are correct that frightened says at the end of each of your turns, the value of the frightened condition decreases by 1 unless otherwise specified. You are also correct that Dirge specifies otherwise. It specifies that it doesn't decrease if you are still in the emanation. The "unless specified otherwise" refers directly to reducing the value of frightened at the end of your turn.
I contend that Dirge only states that you can't reduce your Frightened value below 1 to avoid creatures who have Bravery like effects from being immune. The duration of Dirge still applies to the effect of Dirge.
As Captain Zoom points out above, conditions are persistent with specific rules for reducing/eliminating them. Dirge applies the condition. The rules for duration are general whereas the rule for getting rid of frightened is specific.
Both of those rules are actually general. A specific rule would be an application of a general rule, especially one which alters or adds onto said rule. Like a Spell. For example: A check is a general rule. There are general rules that apply to checks. A strike is a specific check, making it a specific rule. A condition is a general rule, whenever something says you suffer from X condition, you follow that rule. A spell which inflicts a condition as part of or as it's entire effect would be a specific rule that references and possibly modifies that general rule.
And conditions are persistent. But let's examine the exact rules in play, shall we?
The results of various checks might apply conditions to
you or, less often, an item. Conditions change your state of
being in some way. You might be gripped with fear or made
faster by a spell or magic item. One condition represents
what happens when a creature successfully drains your
blood or life essence, while others represent creatures’
attitudes toward you and how they interact with you.
Conditions are persistent; when you’re affected by a
condition, its effects last until the stated duration ends, the
condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition
cause it to end. The rules for conditions are summarized
on page 454 and described in full on pages 618–623.
The stated duration in the case of a condition inflicted by a spell would be, by default, the duration of the Spell. So Dirge of Doom has a duration which specifies otherwise how long the frightened condition it inflicts lasts.
When the bard casts Dirge, you then have to look to the specific rule for frightened to see what it does since frightened is a condition and as such, persistent.
It actually isn't persistent in this case, as it is inflicted by a spell.
Frightened says specifically how to reduce/eliminate it. Dirge provides a specific instance in which frightened doesn't reduce as normal. The duration of Dirge states how long the area in question prevents frightened from being reduced.
No, Dirge has a duration that specifies how long it's effects last. You are claiming that the only part of Dirge of Doom that is effected by it's duration is it's area. You claim this despite no other spell operating in this way. When a spell's duration ends all of it's effects end, unless otherwise noted.
In order to rule that Dirge causes the frightened condition to go away at the start of the Bard's next turn, you have to turn to the general rules for duration.
No, you need to refer to the duration given by Dirge of Doom. Which is governed by a general rule, yes but is itself a specific rule. Dirge specifically has a duration of 1 round. This super cedes and modifies the way that frightened works when applied by Dirge.
Likewise, leaving the area doesn't immediately end the frightened condition, but it does allow it to tick down at the end of turn which Dirge would otherwise specifically provide an exception for.
This is an assumption, and one that I am guilty of having made earlier in this thread. But it is false.
If you are no longer a valid target of a spell, you are no longer subject to the effects of that spell. Dirge of Doom does not inflict frightened in the same way as demoralize. It states very clearly that foes in the area are frightened 1. Full stop. This implies that they are only frightened 1 as long as they remain within the area.
Remember all the way back when I quoted the Duration section of spells? In that section it notes that some spells have effects that aren't a part of the spell's duration entry and aren't magical in nature. It uses the example of deafness being inflicted by a sonic spell. Like this:
SOUND BURST SPELL 2
EVOCATION SONIC
Traditions divine, occult
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 30 feet; Area 10-foot burst
Saving Throw Fortitude
A cacophonous noise blasts out, dealing 2d10 sonic damage.
Each creature must attempt a Fortitude save.
Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The creature takes half damage.
Failure The creature takes full damage and is deafened for 1 round.
Critical Failure The creature takes double damage and is
deafened and stunned 1 for 1 minute.
This spell does not have a duration, but can inflict both Deafened and Stunned. This means that those conditions are not magical, and not tied to the spell's duration.
Compare to Dirge of Doom or Fear which make no attempt to differentiate frightened from their effects. Instead frightened is their effect. Then consider that both of these spells have the following Traits:
Emotion, Enchantment, Fear and Mental.
Each of these traits tell us that the spell itself is directly, and magically, altering the targets emotions, not simply causing natural fear. If Fear simply summoned some scary spectre that inflicted mundane fright in it's target, then you'd have a leg to stand on. But no, you are magically altering the foes mood to include fright, no different than a mind control spell or memory control spell.
You keep saying that the Fear Spell has a Duration because of the line "Duration: Varies". The problem is, no where in the Spell does it actually list a Duration for anything other than the Fleeing Condition on a Crit Failure. I think the Duration entry is simply an error, as nothing in the actual Description of the Spell effects lists a Duration. Otherwise, the Target is actually better off Crit failing, as being Frightened 3 for the 1 Round that they are going to be Fleeing anyway is substantially weaker than being Frightened 2, which lasts for 2 Rounds.
You keep saying that the Fear Spell has a Duration because of the line "Duration: Varies". The problem is, no where in the Spell does it actually list a Duration for anything other than the Fleeing Condition on a Crit Failure. I think the Duration entry is simply an error, as nothing in the actual Description of the Spell effects lists a Duration. Otherwise, the Target is actually better off Crit failing, as being Frightened 3 for the 1 Round that they are going to be Fleeing anyway is substantially weaker than being Frightened 2, which lasts for 2 Rounds.
How do you figure? If the duration was based on the frightened condition, how would the fleeing condition even factor in?
On a critical failure, the spell has a duration of 3 rounds, as that follows the duration of frightened. Really it's a little better or worse, depending on when the opponent goes.
I'll agree that the Duration could be more clear, but as is it works best using fright to determine the duration. The only other duration, as you note, that we have to work with is Fleeing, which I would argue is a non-magical byproduct similar to the deafness inflicted by Sound Burst.
Compare to the aforementioned Power Word Stun. What is it's duration? The duration of the stunned condition inflicted. That is the only metric we have that we could use to determine it's duration.
Frightened doesn't have a Duration. It has a Value that reduces by 1 at the end of your turn. That's not the same as a Duration.
Power Word Stun specifies a Duration. 1D6 Rounds, 1 Round, or in the case of Stunned 1, no Duration, the Target simply loses its next Action, whether that be next Round, or in 10 years if it is somehow prevented from taking Turns.
Frightened doesn't have a Duration. It has a Value that reduces by 1 at the end of your turn. That's not the same as a Duration.
But it is the only metric we can use to determine the duration of the Fear spell.
Edit: I'd even argue that any effect that lasts for more than an instant duration has a duration. The duration just doesn't have to be given in a set number of rounds.
Most effects are discrete, creating an instantaneous effect
when you let the GM know what actions you are going
to use. Firing a bow, moving to a new space, or taking
something out of your pack all resolve instantly. Other
effects instead last for a certain duration. Once the duration
has elapsed, the effect ends. The rules generally use the
following conventions for durations, though spells have
some special durations detailed on pages 304–305.
For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining
duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the
creature that created the effect. This is common for beneficial
effects that target you or your allies. Detrimental effects often
last “until the end of the target’s next turn” or “through” a
number of their turns (such as “through the target’s next 3
turns”), which means that the effect’s duration decreases at
the end of the creature’s turn, rather than the start.
Instead of lasting a fixed number of rounds, a duration
might end only when certain conditions are met (or cease to
be true). If so, the effects last until those conditions are met.
This would indicate that frightened does in fact have a duration, which is tied to it's value, and the "tick down" of it's value.
Frightened doesn't have a Duration. It has a Value that reduces by 1 at the end of your turn. That's not the same as a Duration.But it is the only metric we can use to determine the duration of the Fear spell.
Which is why I argue that the Fear Spell doesn't have a Duration and that's an error.
What gives the Frightened 1 inflicted by Fear a Duration, but not the Frightened 1 inflicted by Phantasmal Killer, Weird, or Horrific Visage? They all use the same "is Frightened X" wording.
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The debate has been heated during the night!
I answer to a few things:
There is no notion of specific trumps generic. Frightened condition has just an additional way of being removed. Nothing in Frightened description specifies that it removes the other ways of removing it. It's like Invisibiity, you can remove the Invisible condition by making a hostile action or waiting for the end of the spell. I think this is the error many people make about Frightened: Considering that the Frightened rules overrides all the rules about effect duration. But this isn't backed up by anything in the book.
Frightened doesn't have a Duration. It has a Value that reduces by 1 at the end of your turn. That's not the same as a Duration.But it is the only metric we can use to determine the duration of the Fear spell.Which is why I argue that the Fear Spell doesn't have a Duration and that's an error.
What gives the Frightened 1 inflicted by Fear a Duration, but not the Frightened 1 inflicted by Phantasmal Killer, Weird, or Horrific Visage? They all use the same "is Frightened X" wording.
I don't think anyone of us can bring an answer with certainty. Different spells have different effects. But I can see a pattern in here using the ongoing effect rules:
Phantasmal Killer's main effect is to kill you. If it fails, you may be traumatized by what you experienced and be genuinely Frightened. This Frightened condition cannot be removed by magic as it's a by product of Phantasmal Killer's effect.Fear just make you Frightened. You are not Frightened by something, you just experience the emotion. Once Fear is removed, you are no more Frightened.
An analogy would be Charm and any effect improving your Diplomacy skill. You can use magic to improve your Diplomacy skill and really convince someone to be your friend. Or you can use Charm and force him to be your friend. One wears off at the end of the duration the other don't.
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I'll agree that we can't be 100% certain, but way to cherry pick from my response.
Horrific Visage only inflicts Frightened. Just like Fear. I don't see any justification for Fear having a Duration but Horrific Visage not having a duration, other than the fact that Fear has a Duration for the Fleeing Condition.
After all that discussion, I think RAW and RAI are both in the ambiguous columns for me regarding Dirge of Doom specifically.
This is certainly an item we need to bring to the attention of the the devs for a FAQ. I think the duration entry on Fear is the other thing we found that needs to be brought up. Is there a mechanism for doing that?
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After all that discussion, I think RAW and RAI are both in the ambiguous columns for me regarding Dirge of Doom specifically.
This is certainly an item we need to bring to the attention of the the devs for a FAQ. I think the duration entry on Fear is the other thing we found that needs to be brought up. Is there a mechanism for doing that?
I still think this is an FAQ item that amounts to, "Does the Frightened condition imposed by spells follow the rules for the Frightened Condition if the spell is silent on the matter?"
Follow the rules for the Frightened condition except as explicitly stated by the spell - and in the case of Dirge of Doom, that is ONLY the part about it not being allowed to decay below Frightened 1 while in the area.
The argument presented here is that Conditions imposed by spells don't follow the base rules for that Condition, even when the spells don't say to do that.
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I contend that Dirge only states that you can't reduce your Frightened value below 1 to avoid creatures who have Bravery like effects from being immune. The duration of Dirge still applies to the effect of Dirge.
That's a really big assumption, and one that is made without any evidence. I mean things like fire giants, dragons, elementals and golems exist (just to name a few). So clearly, Paizo does not mind having enemies immune to PC abilities.
But here' the thing, the very existence of this part of Dirge is what required a duration entry at all. Were it not for this sentence, then putting a duration on dirge is redundant since the rules for when Frightened 1 ticks down are crystal clear (at end of turn). Adding this sentence though required a duration because without it, a foe could in theory be permanently frightened if it couldn't get out of the area. Thus, logic dictates that the duration applies to the area, not the frightened condition. Frightened doesn't need a duration as the rules for it going away are already baked into the description.
What seems far more likely is that the devs wanted to ensure that the whole party would have an opportunity to benefit from it without having to play games with delaying turns and the like. Consider the scenario:
Bard: Ok, so here's the thing guys, I can either make it so that when the creature attacks you it might have a penalty to hit you. Possibly. Depends on whether it moves first or not. I mean, it would at least force it to give up one attack even though the odds of the third attack hitting are likely pretty minimal. Also, its possible, but not really guaranteed that it could have a small penalty to its AC when you attack it. Though it just has to move to avoid that. So yeah, my thing might help you, might not.
Alternatively, I can guarantee that you get a bonus to your AC and resistance to physical damage from everything that attacks you. Or I could guarantee that I can give you a bonus to hit everything and a bonus to damage everything. Plus is the bigger fights, I can, for a time at least, guarantee both of those things (bonus to hit/damage/defense/resistance to damage) [Yeah, this assumes the bard doesn't take Dirge and instead takes Harmonize]
So which would you rather I do?
Half the people I've played with over the years would say give me the guaranteed defense buff. Half would say give me the guaranteed offense buff. None would pick the possibly a help, possibly not.
What this comes down to is that you are arguing that Dirge creates a condition called frightened 1 that does not actually behave like frightened. They called it frightened, have you look to the rules of frightened, but not actually follow them (as it pertains to ending it) without specifically telling you to ignore those rules completely (as you suggest we are supposed to do). If that was the outcome that the devs wanted, then Dirge should read:
"While within the area, foes take a -1 status penalty on all checks and DCs until the start of your next turn."
Simple. Clear. Concise. Has the exact outcome you call for. Even gets around bravery.
But they didn't do that. Your position seems to be premised on the belief that they decided to make the entry far more complex in order to prevent a few potential foes from being unaffected by it even though Paizo has no problem allow foes to be unaffected by PC abilities.
For what its worth by the way, I've enjoyed the discussion. I think everyone has been very mature about it and its a refreshing change of pace from a lot places on the web right now. :)
As long as we're discussing duration vs. conditions, how does the confused condition work with something like Warp Mind that is supposed to be permanent? Can you really just remove it by inflicting 1 point of damage every round until they pass the flat check? Are the asylums full of magically cursed crazy people who just managed to never stub their toe hard enough to shake it off?
As long as we're discussing duration vs. conditions, how does the confused condition work with something like Warp Mind that is supposed to be permanent? Can you really just remove it by inflicting 1 point of damage every round until they pass the flat check? Are the asylums full of magically cursed crazy people who just managed to never stub their toe hard enough to shake it off?
Stubbing your toe isn't an Attack or Spell.
But yes, it's pretty funny that to cure the permanent Confusion, you can cast Wish, or just slap the guy a bunch of times.
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As long as we're discussing duration vs. conditions, how does the confused condition work with something like Warp Mind that is supposed to be permanent? Can you really just remove it by inflicting 1 point of damage every round until they pass the flat check? Are the asylums full of magically cursed crazy people who just managed to never stub their toe hard enough to shake it off?
To be fair the trope of someone hitting their head really hard and having a personality change be reversed is VERY common in storytelling at large.
I also wouldn't consider stubbing your toe to be dealing 1 damage, not even non-lethal damage. Assuming that most of us humans here in meatspace have between 3-10 HP I would say that 1 HP would HAVE to be something rather more serious such as getting a concussion, properly smashing your thumb with a hammer, or cutting yourself pretty badly with a blade. Doing at least 1 damage constantly to pass the flat check would be more akin to ACTUAL self-harm that would involve bloodletting or breaking bones.
As long as we're discussing duration vs. conditions, how does the confused condition work with something like Warp Mind that is supposed to be permanent? Can you really just remove it by inflicting 1 point of damage every round until they pass the flat check? Are the asylums full of magically cursed crazy people who just managed to never stub their toe hard enough to shake it off?Stubbing your toe isn't an Attack or Spell.
But yes, it's pretty funny that to cure the permanent Confusion, you can cast Wish, or just slap the guy a bunch of times.
While the RAW technically permits this, I probably wouldn't let a simple strike that deals HP damage remove the condition.
After all, the condition is permanent. In my opinion, this means that it can't be removed via standard methods.
Specific methods (such as removal spells or Wish) would still work, but the whole "Imma slap some sense into you boi" shenanigans wouldn't fly at my table.
That being said, I think, as a GM, I would definitely enjoy watching PCs slap their fellow party member to death and wonder why it's not working.
As long as we're discussing duration vs. conditions, how does the confused condition work with something like Warp Mind that is supposed to be permanent? Can you really just remove it by inflicting 1 point of damage every round until they pass the flat check? Are the asylums full of magically cursed crazy people who just managed to never stub their toe hard enough to shake it off?
I am pretty sure (like, 78.3%) that the "The target is confused permanently." overrides any duration or ending effect that would conflict with the extremely specific 'permanent', unless the spell is Counteracted.
As long as we're discussing duration vs. conditions, how does the confused condition work with something like Warp Mind that is supposed to be permanent? Can you really just remove it by inflicting 1 point of damage every round until they pass the flat check? Are the asylums full of magically cursed crazy people who just managed to never stub their toe hard enough to shake it off?I am pretty sure (like, 78.3%) that the "The target is confused permanently." overrides any duration or ending effect that would conflict with the extremely specific 'permanent', unless the spell is Counteracted.
I can't see any reasonable way to distinguish the crit fail of the Confusion spell (confused for 1 minute), the fail condition of Warp Mind (confused for 1 minute), and the crit fail condition for Warp Mind (confused permanently) in how they interact with the base confused condition rule that any attack gives you a DC 11 flat check to end the condition. They should probably just errata that out, confusion effects have been sufficiently nerfed from PF1 in other ways.
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Frightened doesn't have a Duration. It has a Value that reduces by 1 at the end of your turn. That's not the same as a Duration.But it is the only metric we can use to determine the duration of the Fear spell.Which is why I argue that the Fear Spell doesn't have a Duration and that's an error.
What gives the Frightened 1 inflicted by Fear a Duration, but not the Frightened 1 inflicted by Phantasmal Killer, Weird, or Horrific Visage? They all use the same "is Frightened X" wording.
I'll agree that the existence of Phantasmal Killer, Weird and Horrific Visage are interesting cases.
For the first 2, the simplest answer is that Paizo didn't want to add a duration to spells who's primary effect was damage, which could lead to confusion as to whether they continue to deal their damage on subsequent turns. This would mean that their fright effects would be non-magical.
Horrific Visage is an interesting case. In my opinion, Horrific Visage is a case of exactly what others think that Dirge and Fear do: A temporary magical effect that causes essentially mundane fear. But it's wording on the frightened effect is the same as Fear, which leaves some interesting questions. Can the fright caused by Horrific Visage be dispelled? Was the intention of Fear to be able to be Dispelled?
Imo, any spell with a duration can be dispelled, and their effects are removed as soon as that happens. If a spell does not have a duration, whatever effects it caused, even if they have their own discrete durations, are mundane in nature as the Duration section of spells describes. This also applies to any spell with both a duration and area such as Dirge of Doom.
I will definitely agree that there should be a clarification on this matter.
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As long as we're discussing duration vs. conditions, how does the confused condition work with something like Warp Mind that is supposed to be permanent? Can you really just remove it by inflicting 1 point of damage every round until they pass the flat check? Are the asylums full of magically cursed crazy people who just managed to never stub their toe hard enough to shake it off?I am pretty sure (like, 78.3%) that the "The target is confused permanently." overrides any duration or ending effect that would conflict with the extremely specific 'permanent', unless the spell is Counteracted.
But why? Confused always comes with a Duration, and the rider of the Condition specifically ends the Condition.
Why should it end a 1 minute Duration but not a Permanent Duration? Where do you draw the line? What if the Duration was a Day? Week? Year? Century?
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I've found another effect with a Frightened condition that is removed on end, Dragon Roar:
"You bellow, instilling fear in your enemies. Enemies within a 15-foot emanation must succeed at a Will save against your Intimidation DC or be frightened 1 (frightened 2 on a critical failure). When a creature frightened by the roar begins its turn adjacent to you, it can’t reduce its frightened value below 1 on that turn. Your first attack that hits a frightened creature after you roar and before the end of your next turn gains a +4 circumstance bonus to damage.
After you use Dragon Roar, you can’t use it again for 1d4 rounds. Its effects end immediately if you leave Dragon Stance. Creatures in the area of your roar are then temporarily immune for 1 minute."
And clearly, stating that the Frightened condition is not one of its effects would be bad faith.