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Hey everyone.
I have been working on a conversion of the D&D 3.5e Warlock to Pathfinder 2e. I know that pathfinder doesn't officially have a warlock class but this is the closest I can get to what I think they would put out for it. Please rate this conversion and critique it to hell. If there is anything that I can improve on or if it's over/under-powered at all, please let me know how best to re-balance it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fCx_MEAVDQXFH_K7WdcTIif0kvuoGnAv/view?usp= sharing
Thank you for the help with my little project.
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From a very quick lunch break scan:
- needs one expert save. I don’t think there are any classes without one
- touch attacks don’t exist anymore
- you should be able to both crit succeed and crit fail with a blast
- it seems like damage should simply be every odd level ending at 9d6 similar to cantrips
Oh I missed it was one action . I guess that was the reason it doesn’t allow crits
Either way if it remains one action it should definitely have “attack” (and therefore MAP) and not scale up to 7d6 as that is out of step with other single action “at will” attacks (weapons in this case)
Thank you for the feedback. I'll be resubmitting the class after I have a few more inputs to adjust it. Here are my responses to your comments:
The Eldritch blast needs some tuning. Currently, it's a 1-action cantrip with no MAP and doesn't align with the flow of spells in 2E. If you want it to remain a 1 action, I would suggest that you add [Attack] . This will also help it line up with some of the abilities like Dual Blast that you've included.
That makes a lot of sense and I'll add that in to the Eldritch Blasts discriptions. Also i didn't put a MAP into it because I'm not sure how to. If you have a suggestion please let me know.
In your focus spells, the number of Actions to cast the spell is equal to the number of components. A spell with Verbal and Somatic components, should take 2 actions to cast. All but one of your spells are 1 action and 2 components.
I'll adjust them to either 2 actions or remove one of the components then. I wasn't aware of that restriction. I could also adjust a feat to make the focus spells take one action for two components as well. Which do you think would be a better option to do?
For Celestial Patrons, is it your plan that the Eldritch blast can heal creatures/harm undead only? Vice versa for the Fiend? This may tread on the toes of healers quite a bit. Some abilities that grant Positive/Negative energy attacks specifically state that they do not heal.
I wasn't planning on having it heal/harm exclusively. I'll put into the description that it does not heal. I was just doing that for flavor really. I was looking for something to make the patron's more unique between each of them.
For Force damage, I'd probably scale the dice down to d4s given the absence of resistance and ability to effect incorporeal etc.
I was thinking that since it's a spell all the eldritch blast abilities could affect incorporeal being. If there is not resistance to Force damage then I could choose a different damage type to go with. What do you think would be the best option?
Pact of the Tome allows a character to learn cantrips equal to their Charisma modifier. Pact Mastery then says up to 5 cantrips. Is this meant to be a hard cap or in addition to the ones that were already learned? Legendary Pact makes it clearer that the spells are in addition to ones already in the tome. Also if the Warlock's charisma modifier increases, do they gain additional cantrips? If it's >5, does the hard cap limit that?
I was thinking that the 5 cantrips would be a hard cap since at 1st level its hard to get higher than an 18 in any one stat. I'll switch it to 2 or 3 additional cantrips instead.
- needs one expert save. I don’t think there are any classes without one
The expert save is determined by the patron chosen at 1st level.
- touch attacks don’t exist anymore
My intention is to have touch attacks just remove the item bonus from AC. I might have to change the name of this type of attack so if you have any suggestions can you please let me know.
- you should be able to both crit succeed and crit fail with a blast
Crit effects are gained by taking class feats. I did this because the warlock wouldn't know how to strike critical points on things until they have trained to do so.
- it seems like damage should simply be every odd level ending at 9d6 similar to cantrips
I'm not scaling the damage that high because I don't want this to be an overpowered technique. It can be altered be blast essence and blast shapes so a lower powered attack seemed more reasonable to me.
Oh I missed it was one action. I guess that was the reason it doesn’t allow crits.
That is part of the reason.
Either way if it remains one action it should definitely have “attack” (and therefore MAP) and not scale up to 7d6 as that is out of step with other single action “at will” attacks (weapons in this case)
I will be adding the [Attack] to it and adding a MAP. And what would you have it scale up to then, or would you recommend that it be a two action ability?
Thank you again for all the inputs. I was also wondering what people thought of the Pact of the Cloak I put in. I noticed that in D&D 5e the warlock is a glass canon and I wanted to rectify this if I could.
I apologise in that I appear to have jumped in too quickly after only reading the headlines quickly so my points may not have Ben that useful!
I should note that I am intrigued by this as what you have done is likely to be a lot closer to what kineticists will be like that some of the crazy direct swaps people suggested early on. Just switching patron themes for element ones. Even the choice of good save makes sense there as well (reflex for air, fortitude for earth etc) - so that is a very interesting idea
So I will certainly return to this and have more of a detailed look. Notably because it will be interesting how you have overcome the lack of official spell slots
Re: touch attacks - I don’t think this will ever be a thing in 2E and the way proficiency works they do not need to be. If they were going to exist there are enough spell attacks that used to have them that would have inherited them. But this is your homebrew and removing item bonus isn’t massive
I apologise in that I appear to have jumped in too quickly after only reading the headlines quickly so my points may not have been that useful!
...
So I will certainly return to this and have more of a detailed look. Notably because it will be interesting how you have overcome the lack of official spell slots
Re: touch attacks - I don’t think this will ever be a thing in 2E and the way proficiency works they do not need to be. ... But this is your homebrew and removing item bonus isn’t massive
Your points were very useful. Thank you again for the input. And I have overcome not having spell slots by having a very limited number of spells that can be done at any level. At level 1 it's a maximum of 2 invocations known and at level 20 is only 11 invocations unless you focused on spells only. To make up for the lack of spell options or versatility the spells have been made inherent at-will spells. At most at level 20 (and this is with only focusing on spells known) you can have 31 invocations. I don't think anyone would choose to go that route since every other aspect of your character would be weak.
An alternative to the Touch attack mechanic, would be to give a class ability feat that allows minimal damage on a miss. At X level, on a failed attack roll, the damage is treated as if all 1s on the dice roll. This does not apply on a critical failure.
I will add that into the critical effects feats and see how that works. Do you think that removing of the item bonus for armor is too strong or should I do one or the other only?
Also here is an updated version of the Warlock with all your guys' inputs taken into account.
Correction to my last post. At max the Warlock could have 22 invocations with just focusing warlock feats on them and maybe an additional 5 if they take the general feat Adopted Ancestry feat to take the human Natural Ambition feat or if they are human having an additional 5 from their ancestry feat Natural Ambition. So at most with a focus on invocations that's 27 invocations max.
- it seems like damage should simply be every odd level ending at 9d6 similar to cantrips
A bit off topic, but don't cantrips end up at 10 dice at 19? They are heightened to 1/2 level rounded up and tenth level spells are a thing
... don't cantrips end up at 10 dice at 19? They are heightened to 1/2 level rounded up and tenth level spells are a thing
Yes cantrips do go up to 10dX. I'm not having the eldritch blast go up to 10d6 since it can be altered and enhanced to be far better than a cantrip and is able to be used at-will.
Are there any other suggestions for improvements to my warlock conversion class? I'm going to be submitting it to a magazine soon for publishing. I want to make sure that this class is well balanced before I do that though. Any other balancing or flavor improvements that anyone has?
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I will chip in and say that ignoring the item bonus from AC is IMO a bad idea for several reasons.
From a design standpoint, it's just not something that 2e does. The math is tight. If the warlock has accuracy appropriate to his level, then he doesn't need this extra bonus.
From a play standpoint, it's fiddly. It forces players to look up their item bonus in the middle of the fight, but it's even worse on the other side - most monsters and even most NPCs simply don't have an item bonus to AC, meaning it's a mechanic that is both fiddly and mostly doesn't do anything.
If you are worried about the warlock's accuracy because he doesn't have magic weapons to boost his accuracy, a much better solution would be to either a) introduce such an item or b) just give him flat accuracy bonuses at certain levels. Work with the system, instead of against it.
Are there any other suggestions for improvements to my warlock conversion class? I'm going to be submitting it to a magazine soon for publishing. I want to make sure that this class is well balanced before I do that though. Any other balancing or flavor improvements that anyone has?
I agree with MaxAstro, you should drop the blast 'bypassing' the item bonus of armor. By your attacks using your CHA for both to hit and damage, that should be addressing much of that.
Pact Mastery and Legendary Pact are problematic. At seventh level you are granting them the ability to pick any magic item property rune that would be found at tenth level. I'm not certain, but I'm not certain if the intent is for them to be able to change it every time they call their item, or not.
Pact Mastery should be limited to runes at or below the warlock's level, and should probably be decided at leveling up. (allowing runes to be swapped at reaching a new level)
Legendary Pact, I'd say limit the property rune to one of the warlock's level, or two, who's highest + 1/2 the lower does not exceed the warlock's level.
I have some concerns about scaling of the one action eldrich blasts, damage-wise, but I note you are keeping them from doing normal extra damage on a critical at start, so I see at least that as an attempt to curtail it. I noticed they have a relatively nice range... since lots of decent damage ranged spells have ranges more like 30. Actually, your feats boosting the damage die size, when combined with the automatic progression of your damage as you level is really pushing it. Also your ability to for an action turn every blast into a cone become really overpowered. One action, at the beginning of their turn, and they could blast their next 5 actions as blasts, and forcing numerous relex saves with no concerns for MAP seems way too overpowered. Perhaps shape adjustments other than Hideous Blow, should be patterned more like metamagic, and have to be done immediately before the eldritch blast and only affect the one blast.
I also am concerned with the Tome effects, and making casting of quite a few first level spell auto-heightened as highest level slots. It seems like it is written for 5th edition, and trying to use a normal spell slot table, and then push it to be more like the 5th edition warlock where all spells are cast at the same level. It seems to create an enormous block of spellcasting resources at their disposal.
That is a balance concern, and I'm not entirely certain exactly how the invocation spells are supposed to be handled by what you have written. It seems like you are trying to make the warlock have access to first through fourth level spells, but converting them into cantrips with the 'balance factor' being you are cutting the 'spell level' of them by half. This seems problematic. Many non-cantrips are probably simply not balanced in a way to allow them to be at-will spells, so I'm really concerned about that. But I'm not completely certain I understand how you are proposing they will work. For instance, when you get to 5th level, are you saying their lesser invocations can then cast second level spell from the traditions second level spell list, or that they are then still first level spells that get their power heightened to be that of a second level spell?
Might want to make it clearer, and/or use examples.
it seems like the goal is to have the class so you can have someone blasting out powerful damaging spells round after round with no end. doing multiple eldrich blasts per round, and then at moments where there is a group of enemies nearby, blasting with something like an at-will burning hands ability round after round. while sounding kind of cool in general concept and story, it doesn't seem like it is very balanced.
I liked how you provided flavor, both in skill associations, damage association, and magical traditions based off of the nature of your patron however. I definitely appreciated that flavor being included.
It looks like you are trying to use a P1 form for your Damage resistance. I think what you want, in P2 terms would be Resistance: Physical attacks 5 (except silver) or Resistance: Physical attacks 10 (except silver). And the higher leveled portion, you mention senses, not resistance in the text.
Your master's eyes action, I think I'd recommend giving it a concentrate trait, and probably making it something that is/can be sustained for a minute, rather than just a single action that gives you an ability for the minute.
Hope the feedback helps.
Thank you for all the inputs. I have had some technical difficulties on my end so i haven't been able to check this post in a bit. I will go through and make the necessary balancing adjustments. I also got some input from a friend on discord. Here is what he put, what do you guys think of his input as well?
Right off the bat, Eldridge blast needs to be a two action ability. Give them feats to modify it. 1 feat reduces it to 1 action. 1 feat keeps the two actions, but makes it so they shoot twice without incrementing the current attack penalty. Can't have both at once, but you can freely switch them during your morning preparations...
The MAP as they call it is automatically calculated multiple attack penalty. It just says that "Each subsequent attack made on your turn adds a -5 penalty to the attack roll and the third attack adds a -10 penalty." So you don't actually have to do anything with that. Your wording of "Make a ranged spell attack" is enough to let people know to apply the penalty.
I'd make the damage dice increases part of feats. Just add a little blurb at the bottom, "Oh, by the way, the number of damage die has gone up by 1."
Pact of the Tome doesn't need to say "innate at will" It just needs to say "Must be within five feet to cast these cantrips."
Also, how do you feel about making that grimoire even better? Give them the ability to learn all the rituals in the game if they take the time to copy it into the grimoire.
All classes get a Lore skill training, too. Make this one "Eldridge Lore" Or add a third skill and make sure it's a lore in the Patron table on page 2. You know, tailored for each Patron. If you want. That's a lot of work coming up with 8 different lore titles...
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Masters eyes is... Goofy. My ranger has an animal companion that he can use to attack and give orders to. It takes an action to use, but grants two actions for the companion. I think Master's Eyes should do something similar. You can either order it to take up to 2 actions if it's within 60 feet or possess it and it only takes 1 action if it's within 1 mile of you. Speaking of which, 200ft isn't really very far. Probably to your neighbor's house if you live in the 'burbs...
"There is no MAP for the attacks" as in Twin blast seems to imply that the Eldridge Blast will NOT be affected by the attack penalty whilst at the same time causing it to increase... Meaning you can shoot three E. Blasts with no penalty, but if you try another form of attack, the penalty will apply. "Both attacks use the current attack penalty and the first attack doesn't cause the penalty to increase" is more clear. Same with Triple Blast. Making it 2 actions eliminates the need for the flourish trait.
I wouldn't allow 3 actions that all have 10d6 damage in my game, let alone adding the Improved Eldridge Blast feat on top of it that makes it 3x 10d8... LET ALONE adding MASTER Eldritch Blast!
Second and Third Patrons are odd... If I was a patron and I found out you were serving OTHER patrons, I'd be pretty pissed and might just decide to pay you a visit in person... Unless I was the Great Old One, then I could probably give a s%~+. Secondary Patron prerequisite: Great Old One patron.
Also, If I was a secondary patron, I would refuse to work with a Third Patron that was opposite of my alignment (Good/Evil.)
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How about "Pact of the Shadows" that allows you to go invisible, teleport various distances, cast illusions, etc using Focus points and/or multiple actions?
Greater Invisibility Feat 14
prerequisite: blah
You are able to maintain invisibility when you make ranged attacks.
Shadow Stalker Feat x
prerequisite: xxxxxx
You are able to teleport between areas of dim lighting or darkness within 30/60/90 feet of you.
You too.
(Just stream of conscious before I forget. I'm still looking at your warlock...)
Eldritch Focus is probably unnecessary. It only takes 10 minutes to refocus a single point.
The creature with the most HP in the game only has 550HP. At level 20, with the right feats, your Eldritch blast has the potential to one-shot it before you ever add criticals into the mix, let alone triple damage. Eldritch Blast needs some serious nerfing.
The most powerful spell in the game does 21d10 damage, but you can really only cast it once per day (Twice if you burn another feat for the second slot.) Your powered up Eldritch Blast can deal 15d10 damage per turn, assuming all three attack actions hit the target. It can do 10d10 on a critical, and assuming you never get more than one crit per turn, that's 20d10 on turns when you DO get a crit. And you can cast that s@#$ all day long.
If you get a crit on a powered up Quad blast, you're dealing out 80d10 damage with a single action. And you're allowed to try for a quad blast every. Single. Turn. A barbarian with a Sky Hammer can do 12d6 fire damage PLUS 6d10 bludgeoning damage on a turn where he lands all three attacks and one is a crit. Granted, that's essentially equivalent to 13d10, but that's for an entire turn's worth of actions with critical damage applied. I think Eldritch blast needs some serious work, and I can't in good conscious allow it in my game until it's brought down to reasonable levels.
How about E. Blast deals 1d6 damage base. you can make it d8/d10 via feats. You add your Eldridge Lore skill modifier to the damage (With a feat, ofc.) At Level 1 that's 1d6 +3 +CHA modifier. Feats can take your Eldridge Lore skill up to Expert/Master/Legendary by level 20 which would be 1d10 +30 +CHA mod... maybe. It's a starting point, anyway.
Looks like sound advice on their part. Also note that there's no inherent link between number of actions to cast a spell and number of components, and various spells have a mismatch. You can totally have a V, S spell cost 1 action.
I have been working on all the changes that have been suggested to me and am taking longer than I expected to finish them. My appologies for the long wait for the changes to everyone helping me with this. Below is the updated base class and multiclass portions that I have completed so far. I will have the updated feats and focus spells soon. Thank you again for your patience.
Warlock 2ePF Class v1.2
Warlock 2ePF Multiclass v1.2
If there are any suggestions that I missed or overlooked please let me know and I will make the recommended improvements.
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Thank you to everyone that assisted me with this conversion. I have created another post chain implementing a lot of the changes suggested in this post. If you would like to follow that chain it is here. It took me a while to balance everything out and work out a lot of the kinks, and I thank all of you for your assistance.