Sometimes i make high level duels with my friend. He is a fan of archery combat and divine or matrial classes. After one duel(we played brawlers, he used mutagenic archetype, me venom fist and mutagenic mauler) he said, that brawler is not so strong as UnMonk. I diasgreed with his opinion
I think Brawlers and UnMonks power is the same:
B and UnM have the same unarmed damage progression
Ac bonus from level
Can wear and use monk armor/feats
Have Full BBA
Have Flurry(UnM flurry is little better)
Stunning fist and knockout
Bonus feats
On other hand UnM have cool ki abilities, style strikes, bufs from ki,fast movement and such. Brawler can take and wear monk/fighter feats, have maneurs bonuses, can use some maneurs in flirry, matrial flexibility, close combat master,not need 13 Int gor feats.
UnMonk how as normal monk need much characteristic: Str for damage and attaxk, Dex for Ac, Con for Hp, Wis yo Ac and Ki. For Brawler ain stats are Str, Dex and Con
UnMonk Ac(without defencive spin)is lower then Brawler in chain shirt. Brawler,unlike UnMonk can wear monk armor and armor with enchantment for fighters(for example brawling)
Monk can deal much of damage, but for that you need high Strengh and another stats must be lower. Ki also helps with attacks and some another bonuses, but you need have many ki points.
Brawler have the same damage, but he can take some fighters feats, like weapon specialization to bonus damage. Also you can go in maneuvers with bonuses and more feats, unlike UnMon, and can have some situational feats due to matrial flexibility
What are you think about diffences about that classes, and who is stronger?
It's the UnMonk that's stronger outside a duel at least. A brawler who dumps Wis is going to have a very painful time against enemies using will save effects. Style strikes are definitely useful (mobility may matter, may not in a duel but it definitely matters normally), and a brawler can't get barkskin as a ki power; this is an AC advantage to the monk if they have any idea a fight might be coming.
BTW several maneuvers just replace attacks and can be used in a flurry easily. Trip, disarm & sunder.
It's the UnMonk that's stronger outside a duel at least. A brawler who dumps Wis is going to have a very painful time against enemies using will save effects. Style strikes are definitely useful (mobility may matter, may not in a duel but it definitely matters normally), and a brawler can't get barkskin as a ki power; this is an AC advantage to the monk if they have any idea a fight might be coming.
BTW several maneuvers just replace attacks and can be used in a flurry easily. Trip, disarm & sunder.
Yes, UnMonk ki buffs and style strikes are good option. But its means that Brawler weaker then UnMonk?
Yes, IMO.
Also UnMonk flurry adds attacks at full bonus, brawler adds them at TWF penalties. If spending ki the UnMonk gets generally more attacks too, though the break points are at different levels.
(Monk: 1st 1 bonus, 4th 1+possible ki bonus, 11th 2+possible ki bonus. Brawler 2nd: 1 bonus, both attacks at -2, 8th 2 bonus, normal attacks at -2, bonus -2/-7, 15th 3 bonus, normal attacks at -2, bonus -2/-7/-12.)
Yes, IMO.
Also UnMonk flurry adds attacks at full bonus, brawler adds them at TWF penalties. If spending ki the UnMonk gets generally more attacks too, though the break points are at different levels.
(Monk: 1st 1 bonus, 4th 1+possible ki bonus, 11th 2+possible ki bonus. Brawler 2nd: 1 bonus, both attacks at -2, 8th 2 bonus, normal attacks at -2, bonus -2/-7, 15th 3 bonus, normal attacks at -2, bonus -2/-7/-12.)
Thats if we talking about the damage. But Monks are more stat expensive: You need high Str for attack and damage,high Wis to ki Ac, Dex to Ac And Con to xp. To make thats stats 16 or lower you need dump Int and Cha. And with dumping stats not will be so high
Brawlers who don't have a decent Wis run away or become confused or get used as puppets. Seriously, their not getting anything from Wis is not an advantage.
I can make two analyses about the topic: PFS legal and non-PFS legal.
Tell me which one to go with.
Thats if we talking about the damage. But Monks are more stat expensive: You need high Str for attack and damage,high Wis to ki Ac, Dex to Ac And Con to xp. To make thats stats 16 or lower you need dump Int and Cha. And with dumping stats not will be so highYes, IMO.
Also UnMonk flurry adds attacks at full bonus, brawler adds them at TWF penalties. If spending ki the UnMonk gets generally more attacks too, though the break points are at different levels.
(Monk: 1st 1 bonus, 4th 1+possible ki bonus, 11th 2+possible ki bonus. Brawler 2nd: 1 bonus, both attacks at -2, 8th 2 bonus, normal attacks at -2, bonus -2/-7, 15th 3 bonus, normal attacks at -2, bonus -2/-7/-12.)
Btw this is the worst argument to make ever.
Being stat expensive is not a problem for Pathfinder characters unless you are starved with 15 point buy or something.
I don’t know who would win in a straightforward duel but outside of that I’d definitely say an unmonk.
They have more versatility in speed and ki abilities than is easily achieved with Brawlers martial flex. Also for what it’s worth, it’s much more difficult to get the most out of martial flex then monk abilities. From an action economy standpoint and from just requiring massive knowledge of combat feats to get the most out of it.
Also the fact that unmonks require wis means they normally end up with no weak saves and get things like evasion. Ergo, defensively stronger than Brawlers.
I think the only time Brawlers really stand out is with the mutagen brawler or just generically for being a manouver pro.
In terms of generic fighting, utility, defence and ease of use I’d vote unmonk.
Also as an aside.
I actually don’t bother with strength on Unmonks.
They get Barkskin and it advances quicker than getting an amulet of natural armour. So I just wait and get an amulet of agile mighty fists.
It’s not cheap but they don’t need to buy armour, a simple wand of mage armour is gonna be better than armour for them and is super cheap compared to enchanted armour I don’t use a weapon I use jabbing style and I obviously don’t use an amulet of armour.
Suffice to say it doesn’t take long for the cost of armour, amulet and weapon to be significantly higher than the amulet of agile mighty fists. Assuming you spend no more than 50% on one item you should get em by level 5.
Edit: for the record, they’re my 2 fave martial classes.
I'll agree that the UnMonk is generally better than the Brawler. The Brawler does have a few advantages, though. It can be better at a maneuver. And it can benefit more from weapons, shields and armor.
I can make two analyses about the topic: PFS legal and non-PFS legal.
Tell me which one to go with.
I always use legal information, but listen about non legal will intresting too