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For that matter, you still find people posting threads "autopsying" 5e, and people who want to work off the premise of "why it failed"
When its obviously a huge success.
Yeah whenever I see someone saying that 5e was a mistake or that it ruined the tabletop scene I have to laugh.
It is like arguing that apple releasing the iphone was a mistake. Or that accessible college education ruined university masters degrees.
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Lol, that's a good point. The internet is a, ahem, wondrous place.
It's not remotely *that* bad with PF2. But there's still a lot of talk about the success of the edition. The small Reddit communities. The lack of games on Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds. But the fact it's even in question and there's any debate rather answers the question.
I'd like to point out that for the first year+ after 5e was released, there was a lot of debate on both sides about whether 5e was successful. The fact that people are discussing PF2's success just 5 months after release has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is actually successful.
I get the sense that Paizo is playing the long-game with PF2, and as long as they are still able to keep the business running they're comfortable with the way things are headed. I haven't seen any signs that they can't keep the business running.
For that matter, you still find people posting threads "autopsying" 5e, and people who want to work off the premise of "why it failed"
When its obviously a huge success.
Let us not go to Camelot the Internet. It is a silly place.
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In my experience, Pathfinder generally attracts people based on two factors:
1. Adventure Paths. They are generally good, always really well produced, there's loads of of them, and they're an absolute godsend for people wanting to play but also have a life outside TRPGs. (Homebrews take lots of time and effort.)
2. Tinkerers. People that like to build and/or play mechanically creative and powerful characters. Here PF1 excels like no other game I've seen. It even easily surpasses build-oriented computer games like DDO.
so...
1. There's only one solitary lonely companionless AP out for PF2 atm, and the paint is still wet on it. PF1 has 24 APs. (Plus loads of stand-alone stuff, plus PFS scenarios.)
2. There is one rule book out, and a shy smattering of additional rules and options so far. Pathfinder 1 has what, like more than a hundred books full of archetypes, feats, titanium turbochargers, classes, and whatnot.
From what I have seen, PF2 will surpass PF1 in delivering quality in both these areas, just from its chassis. And now there's new factors to attract people with as well, like a fun and working game system. So let's see in one or two years how it does.
There’s a reason why my first big project was AP conversion.
By the way, there’s 3 more close to book1 release.
There’s a reason why my first big project was AP conversion.
By the way, there’s 3 more close to book1 release.
Are you sharing those online anywhere?
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Well to be fair the massive influx of degrees HAS reduced the perceived quality of education leading to folks coming out of higher education still struggling to find entry level positions.
To be fairer, the perceived quality of education has not diminished due to the number of available degrees, what has happened is that the modern myth of "go to college get a better paying job" has met reality and found that the workforce training and professional development that warrants higher wages and the baccalaureate coursework provided in college are two very different things.
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Well said, Razcar. For me, those are certainly my top two reasons for liking Pathfinder, with the Adventure Paths being #1. A common refrain of mine during the playtest was that as long as the APs continue to deliver quality, I would end up playing 2e even if I otherwise hated the system.
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393 ratings at Amazon!
The 8% of 1-star reviews ratio somebody did brandish earlier as a proof that something is very amiss with the game and needs some urgent housrules to be workable has fallen to 5% over the course of last few weeks - like I said, backlash "YOU'VE BETRAYED MY PRECIOUS FEELINGS" reviews are drying up. Of course it will take some time to reach PF1's average rating and % of 1-stars but ... it's getting there.
Maybe I'll do a countdown to 400 if it makes enough people ang happy.
The Adventure Paths are a major reason for me being here as well. I just also happen to love the system (so far). Age of Ashes was a thematic miss for me, but the next two both have bones of ideas I've wanted to run for over a decade, so I'm excited! I rarely played PF1, but I always made sure to check in on the APs.
Extinction curse really hooked me with the concept, I hope it is good. Not sure if I would ever run it, but it is always worth reading adventures for ideas.
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393 ratings at Amazon!
The 8% of 1-star reviews ratio somebody did brandish earlier as a proof that something is very amiss with the game and needs some urgent housrules to be workable has fallen to 5% over the course of last few weeks - like I said, backlash "YOU'VE BETRAYED MY PRECIOUS FEELINGS" reviews are drying up. Of course it will take some time to reach PF1's average rating and % of 1-stars but ... it's getting there.
Maybe I'll do a countdown to 400 if it makes enough people
anghappy.
That's a pretty impressive change in percentage, because it means most of the incoming reviews from Christmas were not 1 star reviews (as the number of reviews nearly doubled, but the percentage almost halved).
Exciting stuff!
And I'll toss a vote out there for the countdown to 400, your updates are the biggest reason I keep refreshing the thread.
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Age of Ashes is fun, and a good introduction to the system, but it definitely suffers from having been developed in parallel with the system.
There are some design choices that I think are not reflective of the final design direction, and there are some bits that feel a little sloppy or rushed - likely because of last minute updates to the rules that required changing parts of the AP. I'm still having fun with it, definitely, and my players love it, but I am excited to see how Extinction Curse turns out as the first AP fully written with the final rules in mind.
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In my experience, Pathfinder generally attracts people based on two factors:
1. Adventure Paths. They are generally good, always really well produced, there's loads of of them, and they're an absolute godsend for people wanting to play but also have a life outside TRPGs. (Homebrews take lots of time and effort.)
2. Tinkerers. People that like to build and/or play mechanically creative and powerful characters. Here PF1 excels like no other game I've seen. It even easily surpasses build-oriented computer games like DDO.
I agree with all of this. Although I have been gaming since BECMI, I joined my current group near the end of 3.5e/beginning of PF1. We have played a combination of GM-created adventures and Pathfinder 1e APs. Sometimes it starts as an AP and then goes off the rails and has to be GM-created either from that point on, or just until the GM can find a way to get back to the Path somehow.
Given your 2 points you wrote above, and my party still playing our Giantslayer campaign and not wanting to play any 2e because they say it would create rules confusion between the 2 systems, I'm pretty much left with rules tinkering. I have always been a Tinkerer, no matter the game, but in my mind some games it is just "I love these rules and want to create more stuff with them!" (like D&D 5e for me), and sometimes it's "some cool ideas, but I see a lot of things I would do differently/that need fixing!" (like PF2e for me). I've even written new entire game systems from scratch, just for fun!
We'll see how the party votes after we finish Giantslayer (we are just starting book 5), but they are already signaling a desire to play more PF1e paths instead of switching to PF2e, they say.
Are you sharing those online anywhere?There’s a reason why my first big project was AP conversion.
By the way, there’s 3 more close to book1 release.
There’s a thread in this forum, one on r/pathfinder_RPG and a few more in smaller 2e communities. I’m sharing as much as I can until we set up some sort of permanent site (not enough material to justify it yet).
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393 ratings at Amazon!
The 8% of 1-star reviews ratio somebody did brandish earlier as a proof that something is very amiss with the game and needs some urgent housrules to be workable has fallen to 5% over the course of last few weeks - like I said, backlash "YOU'VE BETRAYED MY PRECIOUS FEELINGS" reviews are drying up. Of course it will take some time to reach PF1's average rating and % of 1-stars but ... it's getting there.
Maybe I'll do a countdown to 400 if it makes enough people
anghappy.That's a pretty impressive change in percentage, because it means most of the incoming reviews from Christmas were not 1 star reviews (as the number of reviews nearly doubled, but the percentage almost halved).
Exciting stuff!
And I'll toss a vote out there for the countdown to 400, your updates are the biggest reason I keep refreshing the thread.
There have been forty reviews since the last 1* one (that was early in November), which accounts for the change.
I must admit as a librarian I find the number of people complaining about case binding and thinking it's fragile to be amusing. They seem to expect perfect binding, which is far worse.
There's one 3-star review where the customer complains about the condition the Pathfinder book arrived in but the other book in the same package was fine so rounded up it's three stars. Amazon.
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I'm still sort of confused about the "building a character takes forever" complaints. It may be because I paid close attention to the playtest, but with the exception of gear and spells (if applicable) I can make a character in under 5 minutes in my head.
Like my Extinction Curse character is a Chameleon Gnome Monk with the Aerialist background, stats are 12 Str 18 Dex 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 12 Cha, level one feats are Tiger Stance, Cat Fall, and Unexpected Shift. Trained in Acrobatics, Athletics, Rope Lore, Thievery, and Survival. I can figure out gear at the table. I have written down nothing about this character before this post and don't need to write down anything else to make them playable (thought obviously they still need a name, a backstory, a personality, a physical description, etc.)
This is by far the easiest character creation I've seen outside of a "deliberately rules lite" game in the d20 family. If nothing else, the elimination of feat interdependencies from PF (e.g. "okay, by level 6 I need improved unarmed strike, combat expertise, dodge, and weapon focus... how can I get those?") means that at level one all you need to do is allocate stats and select- a class, an ancestry, a heritage, a background, one ancestry feat, and one class feat. There's neither need to nor benefit from figuring out your choices at levels 7-15 at chargen, unlike PF1 where planning out at least the first 12 levels was recommended.
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I’ve recently helped a friend convert a 7th level 1E Life Oracle to 2E (APG playtest), using just the CRB and playtest pdf’s and printed character sheet. Took about an hour, including gear, picking spells, etc. - granted oracle feats pretty limited at this point. On a side note, even with dedicating most general and skill feats to Medicine skill stuff, it made the character a very effective healer, but still interesting and capable of a broader range of activities, instead of really getting to do nothing but be the party healbot.
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No point buy math and less of an emphasis on fiddly bonuses from character options I feel like has left PF2 chargen super streamlined, even if there are things I miss about point buy.
Online tools will probably become more significant quality of life enhancers as we get more and more books, but right now there just aren't that many of them anyways.