Interest Check -- High-Powered Gestalt and Mythic Historical Game about the Mongol Conquest of Persia


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Right sorry, that was worded poorly on my behalf! XD

The first part was a universal statement, the second part about your character going into the camp was directed at you. This is what happens you when do a quick post and don't pay attention!

Edit: Also I highly suggest people watch these videos. It would help you get an idea of who this mighty leader was and ever some insight into mongol war style. Such as each warrior carrying their own food stores and how the army was broken up.


Sechen Spirit Speaker wrote:
If I'm correct, Mongols actually don't have forts or walls.... They live in yurts and are nomadic in nature. You could just walk into camp, assuming the guards would allow that. Now they did leave cities that surrendered standing to pay tribute but they never took them as mongol city.

I looked up some images that looked like a palisade fort when I was trying to figure out about what kind of camp structures they might have had, and there was a 'fort' of Genghis of some kind that was just found in Mongolia. I'll try to do some more research on this.


Egyptian here, didn't have the time to review all the concepts out forth.

But, would love... a Prince of Persia, Saracen, Dervish type.


This Is the fort I believe you're talking about no? It is believed that the fortress was constructed in 1212, and was most likely commissioned by one of Genghis Khan’s top officials. However they are not sure, and because of its placement upon the silk road and very close farm land it could have been made before the mongols took it over. Ancient mongols didn't build because of their nomadic nature, preferring to take over other places and reusing them like how they would take doctors, scholars, and artisans and move them throughout the kingdom.


I'm still working on the story -- also read there were Chinese forts in Jurchen territory -- I might make the opening area one of these which the Mongols have taken over.


Ali ibn Sabbah wrote:

Egyptian here, didn't have the time to review all the concepts out forth.

But, would love... a Prince of Persia, Saracen, Dervish type.

You're welcome to submit something.


Sebecloki wrote:
Ali ibn Sabbah wrote:

Egyptian here, didn't have the time to review all the concepts out forth.

But, would love... a Prince of Persia, Saracen, Dervish type.

You're welcome to submit something.

Silly question, but... build rules aside, who are we? What's the story about... if you have a plan... What side of history? Are we pro- or anti- -Mongol or -Persia?

From the Paladin/Holy Warrior concept playing, we're good guys on the good/evil morality spectrum? Or Lawful? Who are we, as a force... loyal to?

Love the megafauna... I'm imagining a large battlecat with an intimdating roar!

Setting is very reminiscent of Conan's Hyborian Age and the Black Dragons (military force)!

Robert E Howard's Hyborian Age of Conan There is a list of Kingdoms, Regions & Ethnic Groups that could help, I think. I could very well be off the mark!


I was planning on most or all of the PCs being Mongols or Mongol camp followers. We can work something else in depending on your story idea.

Yes, I am somewhat inspired by the Hyperborean Age.


Sebecloki wrote:
The idea is to basically make a point buy system that's completely modular but still use the base PF chassis. Between the large number of feats, the archetype packages, and the gestalting, including VMC multiclassing and the gestalt HOPF, you should be able to get any combination of abilities you could possibly imagine.

Giddy...


Quick post about potential motivation for Razan al-Amin in a mongol army. Let me know if this works.

**************************************************

Razan is very much commited to the cause of protecting others. In particular, the Nestorian branch of Christianity: the Church of the East. There were Nestorians in Persian lands, in China, and in the Khan's court in time:

Quote:
Nestorians also spread to Egypt, where monophysite Christianity acknowledged only one nature in Christ. In China a Nestorian community flourished from the 7th to the 10th century. In Central Asia certain Tatar tribes were almost entirely converted, Christian expansion reaching almost to Lake Baikal in eastern Siberia. Western travelers to the Mongol realm found Nestorian Christians well established there, even at the court of the Great Khan, though they commented on the ignorance and superstition of the clergy. When during the 14th century the Church of the East was virtually exterminated by the raids of the Turkic leader Timur, Nestorian communities lingered on in a few towns in Iraq but were concentrated mainly in Kurdistan, between the Tigris River and Lakes Van and Urmia, partly in Turkey and partly in Iran.

Razan does seek to visit Jerusalem at some stage but he feels compelled to fulfill his mission first. The Nestorians in the Khan's forces can have great need of champions, given the dangers of this world. And perhaps his example will convince others of the truth of the teachings of Nestorius.


Another facet of Razan I should elaborate upon: channelling.

He's going to able to do a lot of channelling, and with VMC into "Order of the Star" they should be potent indeed. Demons shall know the wrath of the Almighty!


I was reading some more up on the last Ice Age to try to come up with a plausible explanation for this version of Earth. Apparently, one theory is that the megafauna went extinct in post-glacial weather changes. In other words, they were fine with the cold, it's the warmth that killed them off eventually (that or humans or a meteor).

I think the glacial climate on this earth stayed longer, and that this is somehow tied to the presence of both the megafauna and of magic. The huge legendary monsters are somehow concordant with real arcane powers -- something like the mana levels of Earthdawn.


I tried to find some more information on the Ghengis Khan fort from the article -- it looks like it was basically a defensive mound.

I did some research on the early conquests, and the Jurchen fortress of Wusha was one of the earliest to fall to the horde. I think this is closer to what I had in mind, so I think the story will probably begin in this fort.


@Sebecloki: What do you think of my above rationale for why Razan has joined the horde? Feel free to suggest alterations to make him fit in better.

For Razan's other race, I'm debating between Azata-born aasimar and a race builder "aasimar" celestial warrior-type.


I was also thinking of suggesting he was pursuing rumors of Prestor John or was somehow associated with the crusades taking place at the same time.


Rumours of Prestor John or a crusader off-course would certainly explain him being in the area. I also aimed for reasons for him to both join the Mongols and lead forces.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Interesting. I generally shy away from super high powered games, but this seems like I can wrap my head around the power level, and the setting is quite interesting as well.


So, something that might need to be addressed. At least for Mongolian characters like myself. The Mongolian bows was a power house in it's time. Because of the shape and culture that made it, the bows are made to be used from horse back and hit with the strength comparable if not surpassing that of the longbow. I don't believe, I maybe wrong, that Pathfinder has a weapon for this. Are we just reskinning a longbow? Or are we making another weapon all together?


Timeskeeper wrote:
So, something that might need to be addressed. At least for Mongolian characters like myself. The Mongolian bows was a power house in it's time. Because of the shape and culture that made it, the bows are made to be used from horse back and hit with the strength comparable if not surpassing that of the longbow. I don't believe, I maybe wrong, that Pathfinder has a weapon for this. Are we just reskinning a longbow? Or are we making another weapon all together?

I know that of which you speak -- the strength to shoot from horseback while riding was immense as well.

Would you like to design something?


*_*

Yes! I'd gladly make something! ^_^


Another example of how this earth relates to history -- period accounts of the battles between the Mongols and Khwarazem put the number of the Mongols at 800,000 and those of the Persians at 400,000. This is a wild exaggeration according to most modern historians, who place the numbers closed to 100-200,000 and 40,000.

In this world, that's not an exaggeration. The Persian army, including camp followers and auxiliaries, local police forces and militia, etc. is about 500,000, and the same figure for Genghis' forces is a cool 1 million.

The Persian army numbers among its forces giant terror birds called simurgh, as well as scaled rino-like creatures known as karkadaan.

The mongol siege equipment is drawn in part by megacerops and other megafauna.

Most of the legendary creatures are going to be plausible mutations of megafauna, like they were mutated by a weird magnetic field or something, if I can figure out good equivalents.


Timeskeeper wrote:

*_*

Yes! I'd gladly make something! ^_^

I hereby bequeath unto thee the sacred and fearful task of quantifying that most noble of weapons.


Sebecloki wrote:
Timeskeeper wrote:

*_*

Yes! I'd gladly make something! ^_^

I hereby bequeath unto thee the sacred and fearful task of quantifying that most noble of weapons.

Challenge Accepted!


Just double-checking the feats progression (I included the human bonus since we're all humans). I wasn't sure if the example you listed included the feats from Chopping Down the Christmas Tree or not, so I wrote this up to double-check. Please let me know if I got this correct:

Level 1:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt due to Fighter-like bonus = 2 total
• 1 feat for Chopping Down the Christmas Tree
• 1 feat for being human
• Level 1 TOTAL: 6 feats

Level 2:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt due to Fighter-like bonus = 2 total
• Level 2 TOTAL: 4 feats

Level 3:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• 1 feat for Chopping Down the Christmas Tree
• Level 3 TOTAL: 3 feats

Level 4:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt due to Fighter-like bonus = 2 total
• 1 feat for either a Gift or a Knack feat from Chopping Down the Christmas Tree
• Level 4 TOTAL: 5 feats

Level 5:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• Level 5 TOTAL: 2 feats

Level 6:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• 1 feat for Chopping Down the Christmas Tree
• Level 6 TOTAL: 3 feats

LEVELS 1 TO 6 GRAND TOTAL: 23 feats


To be fair though, the sling was the most lethal weapon in ancient times, but it has yet to get it's due in any RPG I've ever seen.


Coinshot wrote:

Just double-checking the feats progression (I included the human bonus since we're all humans). I wasn't sure if the example you listed included the feats from Chopping Down the Christmas Tree or not, so I wrote this up to double-check. Please let me know if I got this correct:

Level 1:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt due to Fighter-like bonus = 2 total
• 1 feat for Chopping Down the Christmas Tree
• 1 feat for being human
• Level 1 TOTAL: 6 feats

Level 2:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt due to Fighter-like bonus = 2 total
• Level 2 TOTAL: 4 feats

Level 3:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• 1 feat for Chopping Down the Christmas Tree
• Level 3 TOTAL: 3 feats

Level 4:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt due to Fighter-like bonus = 2 total
• Level 4 TOTAL: 4 feats

Level 5:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• Level 5 TOTAL: 2 feats

Level 6:
• 1 feat for each side of the gestalt = 2 total
• 1 feat for Chopping Down the Christmas Tree
• Level 6 TOTAL: 3 feats

LEVELS 1 TO 6 GRAND TOTAL: 22 feats

The progression I put was without class bonus feats, hybrid, combat stamina, and skill tricks, or the Xmas tree stuff. I'll check this later.


And also remember friends that the Mongols used early gunpowder and fire lances, so alchemist and/or gunslinger builds of certain kinds are also possible.


Sebecloki wrote:
The progression I put was without class bonus feats, hybrid, combat stamina, and skill tricks, or the Xmas tree stuff. I'll check this later.

Okay, cool. I actually had to edit the post because I forgot the bonus knack/gift feat for level 4. That is a LOT of feats, lol. Awesome.


and remember you also have the elephant in the playground feat tax rules in effect so you don't have to spend all that on silly things.


Sebecloki wrote:
and remember you also have the elephant in the playground feat tax rules in effect so you don't have to spend all that on silly things.

Does the Elephant in the Room affect Mythic versions of the feat? For example, do characters automatically gain Mythic Power Attack for free since the normal Power Attack is free?


Coinshot wrote:
Sebecloki wrote:
and remember you also have the elephant in the playground feat tax rules in effect so you don't have to spend all that on silly things.
Does the Elephant in the Room affect Mythic versions of the feat? For example, do characters automatically gain Mythic Power Attack for free since the normal Power Attack is free?

If there's an obvious corollary yes


Sebecloki wrote:
Timeskeeper wrote:
So, something that might need to be addressed. At least for Mongolian characters like myself. The Mongolian bows was a power house in it's time. Because of the shape and culture that made it, the bows are made to be used from horse back and hit with the strength comparable if not surpassing that of the longbow. I don't believe, I maybe wrong, that Pathfinder has a weapon for this. Are we just reskinning a longbow? Or are we making another weapon all together?

I know that of which you speak -- the strength to shoot from horseback while riding was immense as well.

Would you like to design something?

Orc hornbow. Composite, 2d6, rule it otherwise as a shortbow. It does have a shorter range increment, but for us that may not matter.


Composite shortbow or Orc hornbow would make the most sense. Composite allows you to pump the strength and damage, and historically the bows of mounted archers were never as long-ranged as longbows. Powerful, yes. But shorter-ranged.

PS: I still love this concept. I just don’t think I could handle the build rules. I normally build in HeroLab, and there’s no way I could do this in HeroLab. I’m not sure I have the time/energy to do it all by hand, especially since I’m not familiar with the Christmas Tree and HOPF stuff, among others.


I'm super curious what all the other folks are building. I've seen the Paladin//Bard, and I think Vrog made a Fighter//UnMonk, but haven't heard much else from others. For my part I'm going as a super sneaky Monk//Druid. Will have to get Trapfinding through some other means (like the Trait that most people use).


Ouachitonian wrote:

Composite shortbow or Orc hornbow would make the most sense. Composite allows you to pump the strength and damage, and historically the bows of mounted archers were never as long-ranged as longbows. Powerful, yes. But shorter-ranged.

PS: I still love this concept. I just don’t think I could handle the build rules. I normally build in HeroLab, and there’s no way I could do this in HeroLab. I’m not sure I have the time/energy to do it all by hand, especially since I’m not familiar with the Christmas Tree and HOPF stuff, among others.

A couple of the posters are players in other games I run who are friendly and good w/ builds. Maybe you could get as far as you can in herolab and decimus and monkeygod could help you finish up with suggestions for the other stuff. I was going to do a round up at the end to make sure everyone is roughly on the same power level and has a decent niche before we get started.


I did say that Sechen is to be a Oracle/Medium


Roughly what positions in the army/society are our PCs allowed to hold? How high up can we be?

I'm wondering if maybe our base starting level maybe should be a little higher than six if we're supposed to high ranking members.

Edit: Before I get too hyped into my concept, are the Legendary classes by Legendary Games allowed?


I was thinking like the head of a squad, not that high up yet. I feel like some of those who are interested are already a little overwhelmed with the custom rules, I think making it a lot higher level is going to decrease the number who make characters, but I'm willing to put it up to a common consensus.


Yes on legendary classes


Monkeygod wrote:

Roughly what positions in the army/society are our PCs allowed to hold? How high up can we be?

I'm wondering if maybe our base starting level maybe should be a little higher than six if we're supposed to high ranking members.

Edit: Before I get too hyped into my concept, are the Legendary classes by Legendary Games allowed?

The CR bin effectively puts us as lvl 12 characters, which is pretty high. I’m always fine going higher as well though, lol.


Sebecloki wrote:
I was thinking like the head of a squad, not that high up yet. I feel like some of those who are interested are already a little overwhelmed with the custom rules, I think making it a lot higher level is going to decrease the number who make characters, but I'm willing to put it up to a common consensus.

I was honestly thinking only an increase to level 8 base, which allow us just a little bit more in terms of power, but nothing too crazy.

Mind, I haven't even really started to truly look at class combinations yet, so this isn't my trying get a specific class feature.

However, if you don't want us to be too overly important yet, that's understandable. Again, there's nothing I'm trying to obtain by asking, it was mostly in terms of flavor and where the PCs stand overall in society.


It would be a very different campaign depending -- if we did level 16 like we were thinking for another campaign, you'd probably be the sons or generals of Ghengis, or generals in the Persian army. You'd be personally talking to your gods, and we might use mass combat rules to reflect the clashes with the huge divisions you'd be leading.


Let's just take a survey -- what level does everyone want to be?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

@Ouachitonian: I have something of the same problem. I'm getting around it (somewhat) by basically building two gestalt mythic characters.

Re: orc hornbows -- they're composite, they do greater damage, they have a range 10' longer than standard composite shortbows (80' instead of 70'). All that really has to change is weight and fluff. Seems perfect for Mongol horse-bows.

@Coinshot: I did a bit of a sum-up on Attributes and Feats here --

Wyrm Sums wrote:

Feats: The standard 1 every odd level is replaced with 2 every odd level, 4 every even level, for an average of 3 per level. An additional 2 are given at 1st level (as per the Fighter bonus feats). As everyone is human, everyone will get an additional feat. 6 x 3 = 18 + 2 = 20 + 1 = 21. CDtCT rules grant additional feats -- one at first level, one at 3rd level, and one every 3 levels after that, for a total of +3 additional feats. In addition, CDtCT grants a Gift/Knack feat at 4th and every 4 levels (for 1 at the standard character level).

(...) This sums to 6 x 3 = 18 + 2 = 20 +1 = 21 + 3 = 24, plus a gift/knack feat.

Yours is correct with the exception that you missed the +2 'Fighter-like' bonus feats at L6.

Sebecloki wrote:
Let's just take a survey -- what level does everyone want to be?

I am very good with where you have it. It allows us to be powerful without automatically needing to be in command of troops and armies; we get to be heroes, instead of having to be generals, stuck with shepherding along the 'normal' members of our forces. I don't think this means we wouldn't be able to be sons of the generals of Genghis; my character is Erkliğ, son of Jirqo'adai, of the blood of Erkliğ Han, from the Besud clan of the Taichud tribe.

Human (Erkliğ Han bloodline):

Human (Erkliğ Han bloodline)
Type: Humanoid (Human; 0 RP)
Size: Medium (0 RP)
Base Speed: Normal (0 RP)
Ability Score Modifiers: Advanced (+2 to Physical, +4 to Wisdom, -2 to Charisma; 4 RP)
Languages: Linguist (1 RP)
Racial Traits:
. Ability Scores: Advanced Intelligence (+2, 4 RP), Advanced Wisdom (+2, 4 RP)
. Feat and Skills: Flexible Bonus Feat (4 RP), Skilled (4 RP)
. Movement: Fast (x3, +30 to base movement, 6 RP)
. Senses: See in Darkness (4 RP)

Total: 4 + 1 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 6 + 4 = 1 + 6 + (4 * 6) = 1 + 6 + 24 = 1 + 30 = 31 RP

Erkliğ Han, the god of the far sky, the high celestial, is the Mongol god of the stars, the planets, meteors, comets -- all manner of celestial objects; when he shifts stars in the sky, there are meteors, or 'hot arrows'. One of the meanings of his name is 'Freedom', and is derived from 'Erli', meaning 'strong'.

Generations ago, Erkliğ Han took an interest in a woman of the Besud clan, part of the Taichud tribe. He promised her that their children would labor at the forge and understand hard work, yet come to be great leaders, and so it has come to pass. Jirqo'adai has become Jebe, 'Arrow' or 'Weapon', Chinggis Khan's great general, and his son Erkliğ has become нум, Num, 'Bow', a great warrior as well, blessed directly by Erkliğ Han.

Jirqo'adai is Jebe, one of the greatest generals of the Mongols and mentor of the great Subutai; Jirqo'adai was a blacksmith by trade before becoming a warrior, just as Erkliğ was a bowyer.

Having 6/6::3/3::+6 (or as it'll work for Num, 9/9::3/3::+3) makes for an amazing start -- power and strength and likely some amount of influence, but without necessarily being chained to one spot, or one group.

---------------------

Speaking of videos, catch some of The HU (it's a band); all these links are to their videos on YouTube, and they really give a great Mongol Horde vibe.

The Great Chinggis Khaan
Wolf Totem
Yuve Yuve Yu

Reading the translation really helps, particularly with the last one ...


Sebecloki wrote:
Let's just take a survey -- what level does everyone want to be?

I'd be fine either at current level, or higher.

The Wyrm Ouroboros wrote:

@Coinshot: I did a bit of a sum-up on Attributes and Feats here --

Yours is correct with the exception that you missed the +2 'Fighter-like' bonus feats at L6.

@The Wyrm Ouroboros, you're right that I totally missed that at level 6, but by my count that would be 25 total feats, not 24 stated in your write-up? Did I somehow give myself an extra one? Is it because I added the human feat and yours didn't?

I can't believe I have more feats than I know what to do with, lol.


Sebecloki wrote:
It would be a very different campaign depending -- if we did level 16 like we were thinking for another campaign, you'd probably be the sons or generals of Ghengis, or generals in the Persian army. You'd be personally talking to your gods, and we might use mass combat rules to reflect the clashes with the huge divisions you'd be leading.

Heh, I had forgotten that's what we would end up being level wise. I was thinking 8 base and still +6, for a total of 14.

6 and 6, for a potential total of level 12 is fine, no need for us to possibly be level 16.


Okay lets stick w/ the current build rules then.


Oh, and we just clarified in the Numenera game with these rules that:

*We're going to have favored class bonuses on both sides of the gestalt

*For the mythic feats, the same feat tax rules as for regular feats applies where there's a direct corollary mythic feat. I'll update the build page with those clarifications tomorrow.


Sebecloki wrote:

Oh, and we just clarified in the Numenera game with these rules that:

*We're going to have favored class bonuses on both sides of the gestalt

*For the mythic feats, the same feat tax rules as for regular feats applies where there's a direct corollary mythic feat. I'll update the build page with those clarifications tomorrow.

Seb, do we also get favored class bonuses for any classes gain via the gestalt HOPF ?


Monkeygod wrote:
Sebecloki wrote:

Oh, and we just clarified in the Numenera game with these rules that:

*We're going to have favored class bonuses on both sides of the gestalt

*For the mythic feats, the same feat tax rules as for regular feats applies where there's a direct corollary mythic feat. I'll update the build page with those clarifications tomorrow.

Seb, do we also get favored class bonuses for any classes gain via the gestalt HOPF ?

no you only get the benefits it explicitly mentions in the feat description.

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