With Hero Points being awarded and discarded at the start (and end respectively) of each session, I was curious if anyone has altered this paradigm for shorter or longer play sessions?
For example, if a group is planning on a marathon 12 hour game session, I wonder if handing out 1 hero point at the start of the session puts them at a disadvantage over a group that plays a 4 hour session. Obviously the longer session gives PCs more opportunities to earn additional hero points, but the baseline "automatic" hero point handout changes considerably with the PCs in a group playing 4 hour sessions having a minimum of 3 times as many hero points over the course of that block of time.
On the opposite side, my group typically plays 2 hour sessions and I worry that that a "Get out of death free" card every single session will take a lot of the threat out of the game as there's only so many combats you could get into in 2 hours.
Just generally curious if anyone has made adjustments and if so how that went?
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The hard part, as a DM, is remembering to hand out extra hero points *during* a session.
I think you should probably be handing out enough hero points to roughly match what it would be if the sessions where split?
You could also just schedule a break every 4 hours, and treat the return from break as a new game session for the purpose of gaining hero points.
I give all my PCs 2 hero points when the session begins.
Too irritating trying to micromanage every single encounter's play of the game.
The system is very swingy and most of the time they just use the second hero point on things they really want to have happen-- usually Recall Knowledge rolls, or Diplomacy versus non-important NPCs.
The system is already so pitted against the PCs that I can't imagine playing without them.
I would certainly allow my players to use as many as they want as long as the action they are currently making seems extremely important for their character and as long as they describe it the way it should.
Otherwise, everyone keeps them for saving throw critical failures, and considering the number you have, it removes nearly all chances of such thing to happen.
I give Hero Points resets at each level (which, being milestone-based, happen after major thematic moments). You can start a session at zero, or at three. I do grant them moderately often, but this lets people make use of their accomplishments even if they're late in the session.
I completely forgot to mention that I also have the Hero Point reroll add +10 to the number if it's below 11.
Natural 20 is still only a Natural 20, but 1s are 11s and 10s are 20 without a critical effect.
Even with this I feel like Pathfinder 2 is sometimes prohibitively difficult. Maybe it's just Age of Ashes, but my 6 person party often barely survives fights and I'm not looking forward to how bad things get in 10 levels.
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I haven't had any issues with a party of 4-6 so far. The first sessions were a bit rough with elite mobs at level 1 but when people started to learn how to play better it was fine.
But you cannot get rid of them because they are the intended counter to swingy critical ranges unbalancing the game. These are my simple changes to make them fit the narrative and not your playtimes.
Hero points are reset only after downtime. Makes sense as you stopped being a hero during downtime. If PCs want to blow their unused one crafting/working that is fine.
Good feedback all around, but I particularly like this idea!
We are working with 1 point at the start of each Char Level with the option of gaining more through that level, but when a char levels up its reset back to 1 again.
We are working with 1 point at the start of each Char Level with the option of gaining more through that level, but when a char levels up its reset back to 1 again.
Yeah, works fairly well.
I wish there were more uses for Hero Points. As a player, I've yet to spend one, despite starting each session with 2. (I get an extra for keeping a game log.) I always like being able to spend such things for minor narrative effects in RPGs. The bartender is actually an old family friend. The long sword we found was actually a rapier. That sort of thing.
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I wish there were more uses for Hero Points. As a player, I've yet to spend one, despite starting each session with 2. (I get an extra for keeping a game log.) I always like being able to spend such things for minor narrative effects in RPGs. The bartender is actually an old family friend. The long sword we found was actually a rapier. That sort of thing.
I use the Plot Twist cards from first edition, giving one to each player per hero point. Each player gets one for showing up and a second for showing up on time and ready to play. More can be given out during the session if players and/or their characters do something helpful/awesome. Helpful would be a player reminding me about something I forgot (a recent example is that I forgot to play one enemy during a fight for one turn). Something awesome would be anything the character does that greatly enhances the story (often this involves the use of another card, so it basically can pay for itself).
They can be used as hero points, or used as the card describes (subject to my discretion since they were meant for first edition). The players really seem to like them, and use them more often than they used hero points in the playtest, even though they were given roughly the same amount. Hero points were hoarded (with many sessions having none used) whereas cards are used every single session by at least one player and sometimes all players.
Here is the relevant portion of my house rules document, in case anyone is interested:
Plot Twists
One Plot Twist card will be given to each player at the start of each session, with a second being given to each player who arrives on time and ready to play. A third can be earned during play for exceptional roleplaying or especially cool/heroic activity, at the GM’s discretion.
-Players may suggest that the actions of a fellow player are worth a card if the GM doesn’t immediately award one.
-Cards may be awarded to players who help keep the GM honest regarding things forgotten during a session.
-No more than three cards can be held by a player at any time.Plot Twist cards can be used as Hero Points, in which case the cards function as Hero Points as outlined in the Core Rulebook on page 467.
-One card equals one Hero Point.Plot Twist cards can also be used to alter the story being told, per one of the four narrative elements on the card or with the mechanical element on the card.
-When using the narrative element of a card, the player will describe to the GM what effect they wish the card to have over the story. The GM will then adapt the story to fit the player’s request, within reason. Any idea the player suggests that is unreasonable can be ignored at the GM’s discretion and the player retains the card for future use.
-Cards can be played at any time, in combat or not, on anyone's turn, as appropriate to the card.
-Players will not reveal their cards to anyone until they are played; this is to encourage each player to direct the story to their own desires and not have other players play their cards for them.
-A second player may play a card at the same time as another player if the cards synergize to improve the story or make for a more dramatic moment.
-The mechanical element of the card may be modified or ruled inappropriate by the GM as these pertain to first edition rules.As Plot Twist cards are used they are returned to the deck.
-Unused cards at the end of a session will be returned to the deck.
I use the Plot Twist cards from first edition, giving one to each player per hero point. Each player gets one for showing up and a second for showing up on time and ready to play. More can be given out during the session if players and/or their characters do something helpful/awesome. Helpful would be a player reminding me about something I forgot (a recent example is that I forgot to play one enemy during a fight for one turn). Something awesome would be anything the character does that greatly enhances the story (often this involves the use of another card, so it basically can pay for itself).
They can be used as hero points, or used as the card describes (subject to my discretion since they were meant for first edition). The players really seem to like them, and use them more often than they used hero points in the playtest, even though they were given roughly the same amount. Hero points were hoarded (with many sessions having none used) whereas cards are used every single session by at least one player and sometimes all players.
Here is the relevant portion of my house rules document, in case anyone is interested:
...Plot Twists
One Plot Twist card will be given to each player at the start of each session, with a second being given to each player who arrives on time and ready to play. A third can be earned during play for exceptional roleplaying or especially cool/heroic activity, at the GM’s discretion.
-Players may suggest that the actions of a fellow player are worth a card if the GM doesn’t immediately award one.
-Cards may be awarded to players who help keep the GM honest
I quite like this, though I'm a little wary about rewards for impressing the GM. Depending on the group, some people may feel unappreciated or "less than". I tend to be very involved as a player, and I find that the RP and increased table time is reward enough for that. But rewarding people for showing up on-time and ready? LOVE that.
During the playtest it was one hero point for showing up on time and another one for completing the player surveys (for the first session of parts 2-7 anyway). One player in particular would always be on time but was rarely ready to play; sometimes it would take an hour for him to be ready. When we jumped into Age of Ashes I added one for being ready and since then he has been ready every single time, so I call that a big win for the group. I'd much rather the game be easier on the PCs (since the Plot Twists cards can be extremely helpful) than have four people waiting around for the fifth.
I'm not sure "impressing the GM" is a good way to put it (it's more like the rulebook describes: "performing heroic deeds—something selfless, daring, or beyond normal expectations"), but even so I have a great group that has been together since before the playtest and we get along great, so it's not a big deal for me.
I think the assumption is that a session lasts four hours, which I believe is the average length for a Society game.
Honestly, I'm not sure if the "problem" people are having with too few hero points is because they haven't looked at RAW. I mean, from the core rulebook p507:
In a typical game, you’ll hand out about 1 Hero Point during each hour of play after the first (for example, 3 extra points in a 4-hour session). If you want a more over-the-top game, or if your group is up against incredible odds and showing immense bravery, you might give them out at a faster rate, like 1 every 30 minutes (6 over a 4-hour session). Try to ensure each PC has opportunities to earn Hero Points, and avoid granting all of the Hero Points to a single character.
(AoN link: http://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=572)
Also, in the sidebar on "Off-Session Gaming" there's a note about awarding hero points for things players do off-screen (AoN link: http://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=503) and to keep things simple for myself, I typically award 2 hero points for most players at the start, because they usually help out in some way off-screen. One player regularly starts with 3 hero points, mostly because he buys all the food & snacks (though if someone else brought more snacks to share, they would also start with 3).
This is kind of normal in my group. If someone is extra funny, or brave, they get a hero point. Occasionally, if it was something awesome at the end of a session, I'll let that one roll over to the next session if they don't use it, because it would suck to get one, to just have it go away in the next 10 minutes of play.
Also, birthdays get special hero points, that keep. Those simply boost the degree of success to a Success, or a Critical Success if it was already a Success. And no this isn't RAW, but it's fun, so it stays.
(since the Plot Twists cards can be extremely helpful)
What Plot Twist cards?
What Plot Twist cards?
Paizo product link (1st edition product)
I haven't actually seen/used the plot twist cards, but I've seen similar products and they're often a little too extreme in story impact for my tastes, but that's super subjective, and again - not based on reviewing this particular product.
On a similar note, I've been using the critical hit/fumble decks for 2e, and I've tweaked the provided rules there to interact with the hero point system.
On a natural 1, the player gets the choice to either suffer the Critical Fumble card's effect or use a hero point to reroll (as normal, but they can choose after seeing the card). NPCs/monsters get no choice and have to suffer the effects (which has swung some fights pretty severely - these cards can be really harsh with things like Sickened 3). I'd say these cards are higher-impact than the critical hit cards, on average.
Obviously, this only applies to attacks, but it provides a simple currency and makes it so that making attack rolls (weapons or spells) aren't being arbitrarily punished when they roll a natural 1 compared to spells with saves. Sure, bad stuff can happen, but they tend to accumulate extra hero points, too, and it provides an incentive to actually spend them on something other than stabilizing.
The cards come with a rule about saving your critical hit cards to cancel fumbles, I basically took this idea and just made hero points the currency by which you do it.
For the most part, I give everyone the starting 1 hero point per session, and maybe 1 more to everyone after a big fight/story accomplishment in a session (we usually play 2.5-4 hours). I'm not sure if my players hoard their points because I don't give enough or I don't give enough because my players don't spend theirs anyway. Using the cards the way I do has made hero points a more active currency, and probably more interesting overall.
That said, in the last 2 sessions three different players used hero points to stabilize (and one was doomed and dying 2 after suffering a brutal crit card - he had no interest in making a literal do-or-die dying check).
Yeah, I like the idea of using hero points to balance the crit/fumble dynamics. But I also worry about compounding good luck might make those who have bad luck unhappy, I dunno.
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For 1st edition, we used Table Hero Points.
Instead of each person getting one, the Table got the same sum, pooled together.
And they were used on a consensus basis - everyone had to agree when they got to be used - so if a character is consistently rolling poorly, the group could step in to change their luck.
As a DM, I always appreciated hearing my group strategize about how to use them collectively, because it was another mechanism that brought Teamwork to the forefront.
This would make it easy to add one to the pot every hour of play, with or without describing a behavior exhibited by one of the PCs.
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I could see this system breaking down if the group has antagonisms that are not worked out, however.
Group hero points are a cool idea - the Fantasy Flight Star Wars system has a similar mechanic, only every time you use one the GM gets the equivalent to use against you, so it feels arbitrarily zero-sum, which undermines it.
I think hero points as a group resource might be worth considering, but the main potential drawback I suspect is that there will always be players that are more inclined to spend them than others.
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I think hero points as a group resource might be worth considering, but the main potential drawback I suspect is that there will always be players that are more inclined to spend them than others.
If that player can convince the table, then they are free to do so.
Again this only works if the players have a healthy working relationship!