Please Add Some Synergy with the Aldori Duelist


Swashbuckler Playtest

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The Aldori Duelist has been one of my favorite character types since it was originally released, but, just like in 1e, I find myself wishing it fit better with the Swashbuckler, which, thematically, seems like it would be a perfect fit!

The problem is that the abilities are both redundant and don't synergize. For example, Dizzying Parry is exactly the same as Aldori Parry except the latter requires the use of an Aldori Dueling Sword (and nothing else) instead of any weapon with the Parry trait (of which there are surprisingly few) and it does not work with the Storm of Parries feat. Suggestion? Add a line at the end of Dizzying Parry/Storm of Parries that for a character using Aldori Parry the Aldori Dueling Sword counts as having the Parry trait for the purpose of interacting with Swashbuckler abilities. And maybe some sort of bonus if someone has both Aldori Parry and Dizzying Parry at once?

Similarly Duelist's Edge and Aldori Riposte work mechanically exactly the same as Swaggering Initiative and Opportune Riposte (with a few obvious caveats, like the former two only working with the Dueling Sword, and not interacting with Panache or counting as a Retort).

I know that most people will probably say: they're not meant to combine. They're two different roads to get the same flavor. But... the Aldori are supposed to be the best duelists in the world. I don't want most of their signature moves to be the same as those of a base class, unless they can combine their toolset with said class to be even better. Anyway, I thought that maybe by putting this plea in at this early stage I might get my wish to see some built-in synergy instead of having to wait four years for a compatible archetype...

Thank you for your time.


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The Aldori Duelist already had this problem with the other class well suited to Einhander styles, the Fighter. I'd submit that the problem is the archetype, not the classes. The onus was on Aldori Duelist to come up with unique ways to use its unique weapon and it failed. That's not the swashbuckler's problem.

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It actually looks pretty viable for a Braggart Swashbuckler using Unnerving Prowess. I doubt you'd take any of the other feats, though.


It is not Aldori Swordlord dedication. So we can hope swordlord has some monkish feat to help your builds.

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@Arachnofiend: Ah, yes, of course the onus was on the archetype to make sure it was distinct from the class that hadn't even been written yet rather than the writers of said class to not simply copy/paste the majority of the archetype's already existing abilities and provide no synergy. Silly me. -_-

@KitsuneWarlock: True, and I suppose that could be viable if one never wanted another dedication. I still really hope they bake in a bit of synergy since we are still in the design phase for it. If just one writer adds just a few words to a few swashbuckler abilities it could make all the difference between the Aldori being the premiere duelists they are supposed to be and a bunch of mostly wasted space. :-/

@Wumiao Xue: I am sorry, I don't quite understand what you are saying here.

@All: Whether I agree with you or not, I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply. Thank you for your time.


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I don't consider that a problem.

Yes, it overlaps. So what? Dedications make you better at something your class normally doesn't do well. No point being a duelist when your base class already does that.

Run an Aldori Duelist as a precision ranger, or as a fury barbarian, or as an investigator, or whatever else - but aldori fighter is just like lastwall champion, you're already the best at that and will gain very little. Archetypes aren't about number stacking, they're about access to abilities.


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AsmodeusUltima wrote:

@Arachnofiend: Ah, yes, of course the onus was on the archetype to make sure it was distinct from the class that hadn't even been written yet rather than the writers of said class to not simply copy/paste the majority of the archetype's already existing abilities and provide no synergy. Silly me. -_-

@KitsuneWarlock: True, and I suppose that could be viable if one never wanted another dedication. I still really hope they bake in a bit of synergy since we are still in the design phase for it. If just one writer adds just a few words to a few swashbuckler abilities it could make all the difference between the Aldori being the premiere duelists they are supposed to be and a bunch of mostly wasted space. :-/

@Wumiao Xue: I am sorry, I don't quite understand what you are saying here.

@All: Whether I agree with you or not, I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply. Thank you for your time.

The best duelist will get the title called "swordlord". which can be a new archetype which like the Hellknights.


I'm with Wumiao - I feel like the Aldori Duelist archetype is more for people who are new-ish to the Aldori Style. I suspect we'll see another archetype down the road for representing a true Swordlord. Probably end up being similar to those higher-level archetypes in the Lost Omens Character Guide, where you can't even start on them until at least level 10 or thereabouts.


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This all things are rubbish.

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Well, I hope Mr. Seifter and co. feel differently about the situation than all of you. :/

In regard to the idea that there may be another, more prestigious archetype for the more advanced Aldori, well, that just further makes the current one feel overlapped, redundant, mostly useless.

In regard to the idea that the archetype is meant for classes that don't already have access to similar powers, well... you are correct that it is not about number stacking, and I never implied it should be. But this idea goes against lore. Just look at 1st ed Aldori: NPCs were invariably fighters and swashbucklers. Fighters and swashbucklers are the ones that got Aldori specific archetypes. I want to see an Aldori archetype for 2nd Ed that works well with fighters and swashbucklers, not be redundant with those classes and only useful for oddball builds that would, according to lore, be the exception and not the rule.

I know that more likely than not the more elegant way to achieve this would be via errata to the archetype itself than to the core classes (little things like adding a line to the Aldori Dedication feat stating that an Aldori dueling sword counts as having the parry trait when wielded by a swashbuckler). And if that is what it takes, I am willing to wait. I just want to make sure that the design team wants to know that at least a few of us (and I hope the fact that no one has actually taken my side here doesn't mean that I really am the only one) love the Aldori and want to play them in a lore-appropriate form at some point down the road.

I think that is pretty much all I have to say on the subject. Hopefully I am not upsetting anyone or stepping on anyone's toes by having these opinions. Take care, my fellow Pathfinders, and happy gaming!


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I think "there's a level 2 version, and a level 6+ version" is going to be a common theme for archetypes that are associated with organizations.

My hope is that the eventual Swordlord archetype does not require taking the Aldori Duelist Archetype first, like how both level 6 Hellknight Archetypes require Armiger (it's particularly difficult to reach the armor proficiency requirements on a caster aiming for Signifer.)

But a fighter or swashbuckler who already is proficient with the dueling sword and can already do a bunch of parry/riposte/free hand stuff should be able to just go straight to Swordlord.

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