If you put a gun (or crossbow, or laser gun etc) right against someone's head and pull the trigger, would it count as a coup de grace? I would say yes, or at least an automatic critical (as it's hard to see how a bullet to the brain count NOT be a critical hit.)
Is the victim helpless? Then you can spend a full round action to coup-de-grace. Otherwise, no.
Pathfinder RPG doesn't really simulate situations like these very well. It's frustrating because the hostage/human shield scenario is a staple of many genres, but game designers have tended to shy away from it because some folks don't find it terribly fun to play when they're the victim.
Yeah what you're describing is a coup de grace.
Pathfinder doesn't have "facing" so you can't reliably sneak up "behind" them to pull this off.
So if they're asleep/bound/paralyzed/etc, sure you can do this.
(FYI your premis wouldn't be limited to a gun(ish thing), you could say the same about lining up a greatsword or pick or whatever.)
Ok, I would rule you at least have the grapple them (and maybe even pin) because, ya, just being able to walk up to anyone and say "I shoot them right in the head" and have it be a coup de grace would be way overpowered (even if it takes a full round action and grants AoO.) A sneak attack might work too but only if your right next to them so you can put the gun right against their head.
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...as it's hard to see how a bullet to the brain count NOT be a critical hit...
Because of the wonderful abstraction that are hit points.
A level 9 barbarian with Con 16 knows how to take a hit. Even if you have him at point-point-blank range, he'll duck and twist at the last second, and that otherwise fatal shot will ride along his skull--a nasty, bloody wound, but not instant death by any means--as he pulls out his rune-sword and splits you in half...unless, of course, you're a level 9 rogue, at which point you also know how to roll with the punches. Not as well, but still a lot better than your average joe.
If I'm helpless tied to a chair, I might be able to beat the fort-save if you fire a d8+squat bolt into my head. (A 2hPA clobberin' stick, not so much.)
If you put a gun (or crossbow, or laser gun etc) right against someone's head and pull the trigger, would it count as a coup de grace? I would say yes, or at least an automatic critical (as it's hard to see how a bullet to the brain count NOT be a critical hit.)
In a word: no.
A thing to remember is that actions in combat are taking place simultaneously. While one character has set up a "gun to the head" physicality, the victim's actions are happening at the same time, and they may have performed some "move my head" activity.
The game spells out how and when coup de grace is permitted. Helpless being the key factor. If a victim isn't helpless, they are able to prevent the gun-to-the-head scenario from being enacted.
If you need help imagining this, I'd recommend perhaps the Netflix Daredevil show. As a fist-fighter, the lead character takes a heck of a beating, and is often nearly physically defeated. I don't recall if there's a literal gun-to-the-head moment, but there are plenty of times he's about to be finished. But he's a very, very competent fighter, and he typically surges into activity right before something fatal might happen, as he knows he has to. Force of will. What looks like a done-deal isn't because he's always got a little bit more fight in him. That's a PC who is not helpless. They're always fighting back.
The micro-actions aren't documented in the system. They're just assumed to happen. You don't get "call shots" where you designate where you hit someone, and in return you don't have to explain how you defend yourself from attacks to specific, vulnerable, immediately fatal attacks.
I mean it more for situations when a bad guy has a hostage (be it a civilian, another PC, or adventurer NPC on the good guy's side). It just seems silly that at high levels someone having you in a headlock (which I could easily see a grapple representing) and holding a gun to their head would just be something you could shrug off i.e
Villain: "Stop or I'll..um... reduce his hp by 20 percent."
PCs and hostage "So?"
Also the whole thing would apply to crossbows as well which I mentioned (using a regular bow for this doesn't really make sense for multiple reasons (requires 2 hands to operate, the arrow probably can't get moving fast enough to kill if it's that close etc.)
I suppose if you're treating it as a coup de grace then holding someone hostage with a nine lives stealer would be a bit more threatening. Since the victim would be forced to make 2 fort saves and failing either one results in instant death.
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To put this into a bit of perspective, a barbarian can rip your still beating heart from your chest and it will grow back in 1-4 days.
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It just seems silly that at high levels someone having you in a headlock (which I could easily see a grapple representing) and holding a gun to their head would just be something you could shrug off...
In the situation you've described, the hostage is helpless. They're not tied up or unconsciousness, but they're still "helpless".
In a grapple, you can no more "put someonein a headlock and hold a gun to their head" as you can "put someone in a headlock and draw a knife across their throat." Hit points. It's all about the abstraction of hit points. The all-out, at-all-costs struggle of mortal combat simply doesn't allow the casual lining up of instantly fatal blows.There are a ton of cinematic moments where one character has the drop on another, but the ambushed is still not "helpless". Such characters are usually seasoned combatants or hardened in some way.
Most non-combatants aren't going to fight with every ounce of their being until they're dead. They'll be surprised and afraid, and then they'll surrender, becoming "helpless".
This works fine for NPC's. You can even bend the rules for PC's, if your players trust you enough to take away their agency from time to time.
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I mean it more for situations when a bad guy has a hostage (be it a civilian, another PC, or adventurer NPC on the good guy's side). It just seems silly that at high levels someone having you in a headlock (which I could easily see a grapple representing) and holding a gun to their head would just be something you could shrug off i.e
Villain: "Stop or I'll..um... reduce his hp by 20 percent."
PCs and hostage "So?"
Still no.
Grappled is not helpless. Pinned isn't even helpless.
I get where you're coming from here, but for every movie you've seen that scene in, I'm sure you've seen another where the victim turns the tables with a well-timed head-butt or kick to the 'nads and gets away. The combat system in 3.5e/PF simulates many things, and I am of the opinion this is one it gets right. Even the rolling of initiative works well to avoid the standoff situations you describe. If an NPC takes another NPC hostage and demands surrender, everyone rolls for the initiative and if a PC beats the hostage-taker, that hostage-taker could be utterly incapacitated before they can pull the trigger. Surprise... we were faster on the draw.
I know you want this to work. But it shouldn't, from a balance standpoint. If you want single-attack kills (coup de grace), then get the target paralyzed.
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long ago I was introducing a different game system
RuneQuest is a fantasy role-playing game created by Steve Perrin, set in Greg Stafford's mythical world of Glorantha, and first published in 1978 by Chaosium. RuneQuest is notable for its system, designed around percentile dice and with an early implementation of skill rules, which became the basis of numerous other games. There have been several editions of the game.
to a group of gamers who played D&D.
This was one of the points that just really brought the differences in the game systems home.
In the span of a weeks gaming time, in both games, an NPC levels a crossbow at someones PC and says... "Don't move or I'll shoot!"...
In the D&D setting, the player comments that "After he shoots me, I'll pull the bolt out and bite the head of it off..."
But in the RQ game, everyone froze... We had started calling guys with arbalest (heavy crossbows) "surgeons" because "they remove body parts". Kick the door down and there, 10 feet into the room, is a Dwarf with a loaded arbalest, pointed at the PCs thru the doorway.
Player A: "You know dwarf, there's 4 of us."
Dwarf: "You know human, I got an 85% to hit with this, then there's likely to be three of you..."
Player B: "He's got a point..."
Player C - the one in the doorway: "yeah, I can see the light gleaming off it from here."
Player D: "You know we except ransom... maybe we can talk this over?".
I mean it more for situations when a bad guy has a hostage (be it a civilian, another PC, or adventurer NPC on the good guy's side). It just seems silly that at high levels someone having you in a headlock (which I could easily see a grapple representing) and holding a gun to their head would just be something you could shrug off i.e
Villain: "Stop or I'll..um... reduce his hp by 20 percent."
PCs and hostage "So?"
This is exactly the scenario that Pathfinder RPG sadly doesn't model well. The closest I've found is the Throat Slicer feat, which (in specific circumstances) reduces the coup de grace to a standard action and thus lets you ready it. You'd still have to have an unconscious/bound/pinned opponent; you'd have to be using an appropriate weapon; and you'd have to keep expending your standard action to ready the slice. And, like many things that shouldn't be considered exceptional, you have to burn a feat to even try it.
I mean it more for situations when a bad guy has a hostage (be it a civilian, another PC, or adventurer NPC on the good guy's side). It just seems silly that at high levels someone having you in a headlock (which I could easily see a grapple representing) and holding a gun to their head would just be something you could shrug off i.e
Villain: "Stop or I'll..um... reduce his hp by 20 percent."
PCs and hostage "So?"
"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy."
What you describe is not a grapple, what you describe counts as helpless, and thus your character would be CdG'able*. That's a guaranteed crit, and even if you survive the 4x damage, you have a 95% chance to fail the resulting fortitude save.*) Strict RAW, you can't CdG with a firearm, but that's obviously an oversight. I'd rule that you still need an attack roll to see if you misfire, though.
I mean it more for situations when a bad guy has a hostage (be it a civilian, another PC, or adventurer NPC on the good guy's side). It just seems silly that at high levels someone having you in a headlock (which I could easily see a grapple representing) and holding a gun to their head would just be something you could shrug off i.e
Villain: "Stop or I'll..um... reduce his hp by 20 percent."
PCs and hostage "So?""A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy."
What you describe is not a grapple, what you describe counts as helpless, and thus your character would be CdG'able*. That's a guaranteed crit, and even if you survive the 4x damage, you have a 95% chance to fail the resulting fortitude save.
Now you've got the problems of what completely at an opponent's mercy means (i.e how to actually achieve that situation) and how to deal with players achieving that on your NPCs.
But then, since this is going to buff rogues the most, it's probably not that big of a problem...
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@Yqatuba This actually came up in
THIS THREAD a few years ago. The party totally derailed the game by assuming they could coup de grace enemies from behind (and strong-arming the GM).
There were obviously some other major problems with the group, but this one changed mechanic being incredibly OP was a big part of how it worked. The game rrally isn't balanced around things like this working.
Regarding a gun to the head in combat, imagine THIS SCENE from The Matrix ("Dodge This"). How would it play out in Pathfinder?
Scenario 1 - Player acts out scene then rolls dice:
GM: Neo is on the ground and the agent is standing over him, trinity, it's your turn.
Player: I walk up to the agent, put my gun against his temple - "Dodge This." - and blow his brains out. <Rolls - Nat 15> <Rolls - 32 damage>
GM: You damage the agent. It looks like that hurt, but he's still up.
Player: But my gun was against his temple! He should be DEAD!
GM: Well then just as you pulled the trigger he stood up straighter. He has a wound in his shoulder that looks like it'll never heal, but he's still got a gun in his other hand.
(Argument ensues)
Scenario 2 - player rolls dice then acts out scene:
GM: Neo is on the ground and the agent is standing over him, trinity, it's your turn.
Player: I attack the agent <rolls - Nat 20> <confirms crit>
GM: Describe to me how you kill the agent
Player: I walk up to the agent, put my gun against his temple - "Dodge This." - and blow his brains out.
(Celebration ensues)
A lot of moments like these - if acted out in pathfinder - would be heavily dependant on dice rolls. If you played through the plot of the matrix you'd probably end up with different moments getting the slow-mo treatment as your dice would dictate when those moments come.
As far as a hostage scenario, if it's NPC vs NPC then sure, have them auto-crit (and even fort-save vs death). It'll add tension to the game and encourage the PCs to take it seriously. It's also a bit open to interpretation what "completely at your mercy" means, so you could have a hostage bound to a chair, or unconscious, or whatever other thing you consider "completely at the opponent's mercy" (including having someone just bawling their eyes out and begging for mercy).
If there's a PC involved then it gets a bit trickier, the main thing to remember is that you don't want to take away player agency. You can kill them (I've had 2 of my PCs die in our Carrion Crown game, and it makes us take things seriously), but don't do it by breaking the rules.
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Keep writing things like that and you'll have to change your name to Mr. Wisdom.
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Regarding a gun to the head in combat, imagine THIS SCENE from The Matrix ("Dodge This"). How would it play out in Pathfinder?
Exactly. People think they can tell us what happens, then roll the dice. But the dice show us what's possible and what happens in any given moment, so we need to declare our intent and approach first, then roll, then figure out how exactly things go down.
Regarding a gun to the head in combat, imagine THIS SCENE from The Matrix ("Dodge This"). How would it play out in Pathfinder?Exactly. People think they can tell us what happens, then roll the dice. But the dice show us what's possible and what happens in any given moment, so we need to declare our intent and approach first, then roll, then figure out how exactly things go down.
Well said young Quixote, I couldn't have said it better myself.
When I describe how Hit Points work to a new player, I like to illustrate that this is a both a representation of how much punishment you can take before becoming unconscious but also a representation of how much damage you can avoid/mitigate by being aware of and able to defend or dodge an attack (hence the rolling of dice to see if you hit and how much damage is inflicted). For example, a Fighter and a Sorcerer both get hit by the same Fireball for 40 damage but the Fighter may have 20 HP left, but the Sorcerer may have -10 HP and is now unconscious/dying. This is a representation of how tough the Fighter really is. However, a dagger through the eye is still a dagger through the eye, no matter how tough you are, a dagger is only 1d4 dmg but that's a brain shot and you'll die regardless of your "HP" or how much dmg the dagger is "supposed" to do. Per pathfinder rules, this "dagger straight through the eye" scenario can really only happen in a Coup de Grace, and there are rules for Coup de Grace (full-round action, helpless target, etc.).
Your "gun to the head" scenario is exactly similar to the "dagger through the eye" scenario, if you put a gun to someone's head and they are not helpless in some way, then you cannot perform a Coup de Grace. However, if they ARE helpless, then yes, this is a Coup de Grace and the target will die.
This might be a bad example, but consider John Wick when the guy puts the gun to the back of his head and fires. Wick dodges it at the perfect moment (because he's not helpless) and then pwns the bad guy.
Maybe just make a ranged weapon version of throat slicer? That said, what should it be called?
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Maybe just make a ranged weapon version of throat slicer? That said, what should it be called?
Head Banger
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Head HunterMaybe just make a ranged weapon version of throat slicer? That said, what should it be called?Head Banger
"Dodge This"