Hi there,
I was wondering if this could work correctly
Divine wall champion feat
Quote: Prerequisites You are wielding a shield.
You use your shield to harry your enemies, preventing them from stepping away from or around you. All spaces adjacent to you are difficult terrain for your enemies.
Using a buckler, whose hand will be used to wield a 2h weapon.
Reading the feat the only requirement is to wield a shield. So this should work, whether I am using it ( raise shield action ) or I am able to use it ( buckler with occupied hand ).
In both situations we are going to have a character not using his shield, and still being able to benefit from the feat.
Am I missing anything?
I think you're probably not wielding the shield if that hand is occupied with a weapon.
But it could use clarification.
"Wielding" was a big problem in PF1, looks like some things never change.
To me the wielding thing is ok.
What is not ok is that the effect seems to work without the raise shield action.
Shortly, you will be slowing enemies by simply owning a shield and having it equipped. Even if you have your arm not raised.
That is strange ( I am considering they forgot to add the raise shield part ).
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I think wielding is an issue here. "Your character must be wielding a shield in one hand to make use of it" (CRB 277). Divine Wall requires that you are wielding a shield. I don't there are any examples of "wielding" a shield without actually dedicating at least one hand to it.
Sapient wrote: I think wielding is an issue here. "Your character must be wielding a shield in one hand to make use of it" (CRB 277). Divine Wall requires that you are wielding a shield. I don't there are any examples of "wielding" a shield without actually dedicating at least one hand to it. Buckler does not require a hand since it is strapped on your forearm.
You could eventually use a torch, which is L bulk, and still be able to rais your shield.
So you can wield a shield either with a free hand or not.
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K1 wrote:
Buckler does not require a hand since it is strapped on your forearm.
You could eventually use a torch, which is L bulk, and still be able to rais your shield.
So you can wield a shield either with a free hand or not.
Well, The game says
Wielding Items wrote: Some abilities require you to wield an item, typically a
weapon. You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding
it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively.
When wielding an item, you’re not just carrying it
around—you’re ready to use it. Other abilities might
require you to merely carry or have an item. These apply
as long as you have the item on your person; you don’t
have to wield it.
I'd argue that if you are wielding a 2-handed weapon, your buckler is not ready to use. What does it mean to "use" a buckler? We are given some examples. You can "Raise Shield", but you can't do that with a buckler if the hand is holding another weapon. You can Shield Bash, but you can't do that if the hand is holding another weapon.
Even if Divine Wall does not specifically say that wielded bucklers must be in a free hand, or in one carrying one Bulk L item, I think it is pretty clear that this is what is intended. How could you "effectively" "use" a buckler to "harry your enemies" with a buckler that is not free to move around? I think it is clear that you are not "wielding" a shield when your buckler hand is gripping a 2-handed weapon.
Seems like the only limit is using raise sheild. So divine wall would work.
It is not exactly overpowered.
Sapient wrote: K1 wrote:
Buckler does not require a hand since it is strapped on your forearm.
You could eventually use a torch, which is L bulk, and still be able to rais your shield.
So you can wield a shield either with a free hand or not.
Well, The game says
Wielding Items wrote: Some abilities require you to wield an item, typically a
weapon. You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding
it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively.
When wielding an item, you’re not just carrying it
around—you’re ready to use it. Other abilities might
require you to merely carry or have an item. These apply
as long as you have the item on your person; you don’t
have to wield it.
I'd argue that if you are wielding a 2-handed weapon, your buckler is not ready to use. What does it mean to "use" a buckler? We are given some examples. You can "Raise Shield", but you can't do that with a buckler if the hand is holding another weapon. You can Shield Bash, but you can't do that if the hand is holding another weapon.
Even if Divine Wall does not specifically say that wielded bucklers must be in a free hand, or in one carrying one Bulk L item, I think it is pretty clear that this is what is intended. How could you "effectively" "use" a buckler to "harry your enemies" with a buckler that is not free to move around? I think it is clear that you are not "wielding" a shield when your buckler hand is gripping a 2-handed weapon. Yeah that must be the right interpretation.
What still bothers me is the you could be able to slow enemies without using your shield. Like having a dead arm with a shield attached to it.
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K1 wrote:
Yeah that must be the right interpretation.
What still bothers me is the you could be able to slow enemies without using your shield. Like having a dead arm with a shield attached to it.
Since Divine Wall requires a wielded shield, I'd argue that Divine Wall would not work, as a dead arm can't wield (effectively use) a shield.
Sapient wrote: K1 wrote:
Yeah that must be the right interpretation.
What still bothers me is the you could be able to slow enemies without using your shield. Like having a dead arm with a shield attached to it.
Since Divine Wall requires a wielded shield, I'd argue that Divine Wall would not work, as a dead arm can't wield (effectively use) a shield. What I mean is that it is not raised.
So it is down.
And how a downed shield is supposed to slow enemies?
But maybe I am just overthinking and the whole stuff is fine in terms of balance.
I was thinking about using a 2h weapon to perform 2x attack, and then release the hand with thr buckler.
Then at the start of my turn redo the same, 1 action to grip, 2 attacks. Release. Repeat.
Dunno, seems extremely stupid.
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You won't be able to take AoOs with your 2h weapon then... if you have any AoOs to take, it works better with a two-handable one-hand weapon.
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K1 wrote: What I mean is that it is not raised.
So it is down.
And how a downed shield is supposed to slow enemies?
Oh, I see. Sorry I misunderstood you. I think "Raise Shield" really means you are raising it to serve as an active piece of armor. If you are using Divine Wall, you would have it up, without using it to defend yourself.
K1 wrote: I was thinking about using a 2h weapon to perform 2x attack, and then release the hand with thr buckler.
Then at the start of my turn redo the same, 1 action to grip, 2 attacks. Release. Repeat.
Dunno, seems extremely stupid.
I think that is totally fine narratively, mechanically, and in terms of balance.
Sapient wrote: K1 wrote: What I mean is that it is not raised.
So it is down.
And how a downed shield is supposed to slow enemies?
Oh, I see. Sorry I misunderstood you. I think "Raise Shield" really means you are raising it to serve as an active piece of armor. If you are using Divine Wall, you would have it up, without using it to defend yourself.
K1 wrote: I was thinking about using a 2h weapon to perform 2x attack, and then release the hand with thr buckler.
Then at the start of my turn redo the same, 1 action to grip, 2 attacks. Release. Repeat.
Dunno, seems extremely stupid.
I think that is totally fine narratively, mechanically, and in terms of balance. Yeah I changed my mind after have read fuzzy reply. I completely forgot about aoo.
Thank guys.
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