Natural Weapons - Dex or Str?

[Thunderfrog]

I've got a character I want to play in a campaign setting that allows beastkin. This is the stat block for them.

Beastkin Stats:

Racial Traits
Beastfolk are humanoids and members of a noble race.
Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence, +2 to one other stat, see below
Small: Beastfolk are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Normal Speed: Beastfolk have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Beastfolk can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Keen Senses: Beastfolk receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Natural Armor: Beastfolk have fur and hide that offers a +1 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class.
Natural Attacks: 1 bite for 1d4 or 2 claws for 1d2/1d2 (player choice).
Languages: All Beastfolk speak Common,
Beastfolk vary in the following ways, based on animal type:

Feline - cat, lion, tiger, jaguar, puma, cheetah, or leopard heritage.
+2 Charisma
Impassive: +2 on Bluff checks

Canine - wolf, dog, fox, or coyote heritage.
+2 Intelligence (cancels -2 penalty)
Social: +2 on Diplomacy checks

Ursine - bear, sloth, panda, or racoon heritage.
+2 Strength
Individualistic: +2 on Survival checks

Rodent - rat, mouse, squirrel, beaver, or rabbit heritage.
+2 Constitution
Sneaky: +2 on Stealth checks

Avian - hawk, owl, eagle, or falcon heritage.
+2 Dexterity
Flighty: +2 on Fly checks and on Acrobatics checks to jump.

1. I want to use this race to create a natural weapons character who is strong in melee. This probably means having at least claw claw bite.

2. They don't have to equal fighter output, as long as there's some other perks in there as well, like neat skills or other class features.

3. Only the core book plus custom site content is allowed. They really hate strong characters here and try to keep it easy for their DMs. Certain things are allowed case by case, from the APG.

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Here are my current thoughts.

A. A rogue type melee character, using the claws with sneak attack. I kinda consider this somewhat better than a halfling with twf, because the beastkin get 1 Nat Armor and move 30ft. They wont get the crit range of a kukri though. =(

B. I've been told the nat weapon ranger specialization is available. That would probably make the Aspect of the Beast worth taking, because then I have the d4 bite as a racial and the d4 claws from the feat.

C. There's an easy to access prestige class that at 5th level gives you scent and a pair of claws. It also gives you the following SLA's each once per day by its 5th level: Beast Shape I, II, and III Plant Shape I and II, Barkskin, Spider Climb, Water Breathing, Gaseous Form, Longstrider, Enlarge Person, Reduce Person, Bears Strength, Cats Grace, and Bears Endurance.

D. There's also an annoying to access prestige class (Animal Affinity, Self Sufficient, and some skill tax) that does something crazy. If you take a character with an animal companion, you basically have a shared HP pool, can attack in unison, and combine each others natural weapon damages.

You cant wear armor or use manufactured weapons, but you do gain a +1 thru +5 enhancement bonuses (that dont beat DR =( ) to your nat attacks.

E: The prestige class mentioned in C has some charisma based abilities. Maybe a sorc thru 5 levels before switching over?

F: Totem barbarian seems legit. I wouldn't need the bite rage power, and it could eventually grant me pounce.

25 point buy.

Help please. What do you folks think?

[Aleister VII]

Go canine for the INT and be an Alchemist, beastmorph + Vivisectionist is very strong, feral mutagen gives you claw x2 and bite, beastmorph slowly add a few bonuses and vivisectionist give you sneak attack, you can later on add things like wings and other interesting alchemic stuffs like tumor familiar.

[Steve Vermin]

Aleister VII wrote:

Go canine for the INT and be an Alchemist, beastmorph + Vivisectionist is very strong, feral mutagen gives you claw x2 and bite, beastmorph slowly add a few bonuses and vivisectionist give you sneak attack, you can later on add things like wings and other interesting alchemic stuffs like tumor familiar.

Alchemist isn't Core. and Thunderfrog did say "Only the core book plus custom site content is allowed."

I'd think Rogue would be good, esp. depending on what other PCs there are in the party. Though, maybe Paladin would be a twist too, as long as you are getting "charisma based abilities"? Something like a "Lion Beastkin" - which should be Lawful Good (ala. Lion King).

[Thunderfrog]

Regarding the Party, there's a Druid, Wizard, Pally, Cleric, and Ranger. It's a mostly wilderness campaign, so if I went rogue I may want to look at an APG archetype and apply for that.

Sadly, alchemist isn't allowed.

[Steve Vermin]

Thunderfrog wrote:

Regarding the Party, there's a Druid, Wizard, Pally, Cleric, and Ranger. It's a mostly wilderness campaign, so if I went rogue I may want to look at an APG archetype and apply for that.

Sadly, alchemist isn't allowed.

Elven Rogue maybe? Concentration on Stealth, and the use of the Long Bow, so that you get Sneak Dice from cover and can snipe. The APG would (maybe?) give you Scout or Sniper, both good in a wilderness campaign. Beastkin flavored for the "Rodent - squirrel" or maybe pack-rat?

Though, from looking at the other PCs I personally would take a Core Bard, but then I am partial to Bards. I could see a PC "Squirrel" scampering up a tree, where he spends the rest of the combat chattering (Bardic Performance) and throwing acorns at the Mooks.

[Heather 540]

If you don't go with Rogue, I'd maybe lean towards Str rather than Dex. Natural weapons can only be enhanced using an Amulet of Mighty Fists, which can only have an enhancement level of +5, you want to save a slot on it that would otherwise be used for Agile.

[Secret Wizard]

Hi mate!

With 25 point buy, you have a ton of good options.

If some monk archetypes are allowed, I think your race would make an absolutely killer monk.

Weapon Adept archetype focusing on unarmed strikes would be pretty good. The fact that you are small and get more AC and more attack is a pretty sweet deal.

You can boost up your damage with Boar Style for bleed.

I'd distribute my stats as such:

S14 D16+2 C14 I10-2 W14+2 CH10

I'd jump into Weapon Finesse, then boar style feats, then dimensional dervish for mobility.

[Bloodrealm]

They hate strong characters, but they're using Core-only, 25 point-buy, and allow Wizard and Cleric... Have they read the game?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Natural Attacks don't normally allow Dex-to-Damage, so in principle, I'm not super sanguine about Dex-based Natural Attacks.

Unchained Rogue would allow Dex-to-Damage with 1 of your Natural Attacks, but Unchained Rogue is not Core.

Core-only, how will you lock in your Sneak Attack Damage? Will they allow you to take Dirty Trick Feats? If you have to resort to Improved Feint, taking a Move Action to Feint, you relegated to 1 Standard Action Attack to do your Sneak Attack Damage.

Can you take 2 Weapon Feint, say Feint with 1 Claw then Full Attack with your Bite and other Claw? I am by no means certain that that is legal per RAW, but you can ask your GM.

You could stick with Strength-based Natural Attacks, and be a Barbarian. Your +4 Strength will offer a +2 Attack and Damage to all your Attacks. Maybe you can take those Rage Powers + your special Race to get Claws, bite, and a Gore.

[Meirril]

I think you either go rogue or barbarian given your allowed sources and party composition. Rogue is going to be squishy and quite honestly weak. The relatively low hp, low AC, and high damage output makes a rogue a huge target. Now add in that you don't get any advantage from your build if you spend a move action to reach your target and that kills a lot of the advantage of a natural attack rogue.

The barbarian seems like a better choice. Better HD, better BAB, movement bonuses, a way to pick up 2 claw attacks at 2nd level, pounce at 10th. While you don't get sneak attack dice everything you do get should offset that. Being able to pull off 2 claws at full attack value, and a secondary bite (-5 to hit) from 2nd level on is a huge bonus. Even at first level you can pull off 2 handed weapon + bite (at -5 to hit with the bite).

If you don't mind doubling up class then you might consider Druid. That animal companion PRC sounds interesting, and the shapeshift druid class ability will let you start pouncing way earlier and with potentially more attacks that you'd ever be able to gain otherwise. The main drawback would be a lower BAB but you can overcome that with buffs.

But I think for party harmony you're better off with a core Barbarian.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Meirril wrote:

The barbarian seems like a better choice.... If you don't mind doubling up class then you might consider Druid.

Barbarian/Druid has a lot of potential. Take Shaping Focus and Natural Spell, and then take levels in Barbarian. Take Animal Fury for a Bite Attack either Lesser Beast Totem or Lesser Fiend Totem, Wild Shape into an Arsinotherium or Triceratops, or Wildshape into an Allosaurus, and you get Claws, Bite, and Gore, plus the Strength bumps from both Wild Shape and Rage modifying all your attacks. I would have you take levels in Warpriest so that your Natural Attacks do Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage instead of regular Natural Attack Damage, but you probably aren't allowed to take levels in Waripriest. I'm thinking the better combination is to favor Arsinotherium because it's Gore Attack is especially good, then use your Rage Powers to get Bite and Claw Attacks: Animal Fury and Lesser Beast Totem.

Another advantage of being a Barbarian/Druid is that coming out of Barbarian Rage leave you Fatigued, and Lesser Restoration is a Druid Spell that removes Fatigue.

I suppose it's possible your GM is using older rulebooks, and if so, he might let you use the older version of the Feral Combat Training Feat which allows a Natural Attack to do Monk Unarmed Strike Damage, and then it would behoove you to take levels in Monk, say 3 levels in Monk and take Monastic Legacy so 1/2 your nonmonk levels count as Monk levels for you Unarmed Strike Damage. If you became a Barbarian/Druid/Monk though, you'd need to be a Martial Artist Monk: the only kind of Monk with no Alignment restriction. I do seem to recall a Trait that lets you be a Lawful Barbarian, but I don't remember the name or if you'd be allowed to use it.

[Ferious Thune]

If Agile is not available (due to the game mostly being Core), then the decision is easy. Go Strength. Barbarian, as noted, is a good option for that and should work out well using mostly Core rules.

[Meirril]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Barbarian/Druid has a lot of potential. Take Shaping Focus and Natural Spell, and then take levels in Barbarian.

If this character is being played from level 1 then I strongly disagree. Once you gain the ability to wild Shape (4th level) it isn't a good time to immediately stop progressing the ability. Being stuck in a single form for a 4 hour adventuring day once you enter the first combat seems like a bad idea. If you stick it out to 8th level you'll be able to transform 3 times per day, and the max duration is 8 hours per transformation. The number of times you can transform is more important than the duration since you can use Wild Shape as a semi-utility spell to up your mobility as well as combat potential.

Also every 2 levels from 4th to 12th you gain more forms you can transform into. So just to recap the gains from sticking to druid instead of dipping Barbarian every 2 levels you gain 2 extra hours of duration for Wild Shape, 1 additional use of Wild Shape per day, an improvement to the size and types of creatures you can wild shape into, and a whole new spell level.

I don't think you gain enough from dipping barbarian to make up for what you could of had as a straight druid. And again the only reason I'd go druid for this particular character is to qualify for the PRC the OP talks about and once you meet the qualifications you immediately dive into the PRC and don't look back so you stop stepping all over the other Druid PC's role.

[Ferious Thune]

Shaping Focus bumps your effective Druid level for Wildshape up to your character level (max 4 levels) similar to how Boon Companion works. So you would continue to advance Wildshape until 8th level, at which point you can do the things you say, even if you took Barbarian levels from 5 on. I don't know the specific build, but that part of it works.