How does your group avoid 'squishy' getting squished?
This is been on my mind after some responses to a few of my other threads. I was mentioning that we often had problems keeping wizards and sorcerers alive long enough to be major contributers. I got a lot of comments that basically boiled down to "if your wizard/sorcerer is ever in danger you are playing like an idiot!" Maybe not quite that extreme, but that is the general jist of it.
That just kind of amazed me. I guess it surprises me that so many people feel a properly run wizard will never be exposed to danger. I mean sometimes the other guy can do something right or he wouldn't have survived to become the BBEG.
As a player, whenever possible I ambush my opponent and usually target the spell caster first. Even if I can't ambush and it is a fair fight my 1/2orc barbarian would often overrun through the front line taking several AoO to close with the casters in the back. Our archers, sneaks, and spell casters would also often target the enemy spell casters. We put alot of effort to make sure the enemy spell casters do not have time to buff/summon/blast/debuff. Don't most groups operate that way at least alot of the time?
If it is a valid (meaning winning) tactic for the PC's, won't intelligent BBEG's realize that and try to use it on the PC's?
Does nothing like that ever happen to your groups? You're never ambushed, you always know if what is on the other side of the door is worth buffing up, the bad guys never specifically target the guy that is making life difficult for them?
I will grant you, our group is not always the best at the 'team' approach. But I don't think we are horrible at it. But we have found it very difficult to always keep the 'squishies' out of harm's way. Especially when greatly out numbered or faced with reach/flying/incorporeal opponents.
How do your game experiences compare?
Scroll of Raise Dead and a one week pass to a resort to get over the trauma.
When I play squishies, I usually hang out in back, and let the bashers get in first.
That one time a demon teleported next to me, I 5 foot stepped and cast Displacement.
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Oh, I never have trouble with it. My DM never targets them, and the fighters stay between the monsters and the squishies!
Pretty much this in my experience while DMing. Best example I remember was a campaign where fights frequently went as such: the party sorcerer racing to the front, shooting lightning and cackling (player's description), the party wizard hanging back, behind the fighter, monk, and rogue and taking potshots. I believe it was better than three quarters into the campaign before the latter was ever attacked in melee, and that took a teleporting demon. The group I run for tends to be pretty solid about keeping the softies behind a wall of steel.
I think it really depends on what you are fighting against.
IMO, the DM should be running baddies like they would behave, not playing the game as a player vs the PC's. I also think that the PC's as well, should be behaving with charater knowledge, not player knowledge.
My wizard has occasionally gotten his licks. Playing through Kingmaker, and the Stag Lord definitely targetted him.. but he was smart / experienced / high level enough to realize that the guy at the back casting web and glitterdust and what not was a bigger threat than the rogue trying to flank his minions.
When fighting a dumb monster.. why would they go for the squishy at the back? The barbarian in front of him looks like a much nicer treat to eat, plus he is pissing the monster off by hitting him!
In my experience, the "squishies" aren't all that squishy.
Some reasons why:
Pathfinder mins out at a d6 HD.
Favored class bonuses for such characters in the games I play in / run generally go to HP.
Long-lasting defensive spells like False Life and Resist Energy help stretch that HP further.
Pathfinder gives more feats to sorcerers/wizards/etc. than 3.X and its version of Toughness is better for them; it's a reasonably common choice in my games.
Such characters often craft +CON magic items as priorities. (Not the first thing I made with my last sorcerer, but I'm positive it was one of the first five.)
Add it all up and sometimes the arcane casters end up with the highest HP totals in my parties, even if, yeah, their AC is usually still terrible.
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I've run a few squishies and I stay back, away from the front and DO NOT use melee touch attacks ;-) I also use mage armor, shield and the before mentioned false life.
Also, not doing a lot of direct damage through spells helps a great deal with the "avoiding attention" aspect. Later on I use invisility and fly a lot.
Stealthing and metamagic feats can also help avoid these issues. Keeping the front and second lines buffed out the hoo-hah is also a valid strategy as then they can't be ignored because they present way to big of a threat ;-) A selfish spellcaster is often a dead spellcaster.
That just kind of amazed me. I guess it surprises me that so many people feel a properly run wizard will never be exposed to danger. I mean sometimes the other guy can do something right or he wouldn't have survived to become the BBEG.
As a player, whenever possible I ambush my opponent and usually target the spell caster first. Even if I can't ambush and it is a fair fight my 1/2orc barbarian would often overrun through the front line taking several AoO to close with the casters in the back. Our archers, sneaks, and spell casters would also often target the enemy spell casters. We put alot of effort to make sure the enemy spell casters do not have time to buff/summon/blast/debuff. Don't most groups operate that way at least alot of the time?
Are you metagaming? How do you know if he is a spellcaster untill he casts? If it is clothing, simple, just wear a hat of diguise to be wearing full plate. Even than, Clerics are spellcasters and they wear armor.
...the DM should be running baddies like they would behave...
That is kinda my point. if the baddies can take down a couple of squishies they can then concentrate on the hard to kill melee types. Just like we do as players. It makes more sense to me than that they would never target the casters.
...I also think that the PC's as well, should be behaving with charater knowledge, not player knowledge...
I think it is perfectly legit for the normal experiened adventurer to realize that taking out the caster is often a good tactic.
... he was smart / experienced / high level enough to realize that the guy at the back casting web and glitterdust and what not was a bigger threat than the rogue trying to flank his minions...
Sure, but you are making my point. Your rogue was trying to get past the front line and take out the caster. So why would he not be intelligent enough to assign some of his minions to do the same.
...When fighting a dumb monster.. why would they go for the squishy at the back?...
I agree the really dumb ones have not been as big a threat to the rear rankers.
... My DM never targets them...
I guess to me that is the hard to understand part.
Don't any of your PC's ever target the spell casters? Do you always work through all of the blockers first?
...The group I run for tends to be pretty solid about keeping the softies behind a wall of steel.
We usually try to do that. But with a std 4 person group melee/tank, healer, caster, and sneak you only have 1 or 2 people to do all that blocking.
Just for an example: our last fight had a caster, his demon ally, and 12 minions. Throne room was over 100' across. If the melee stays to be a wall, he can not block all 12 minions, and the caster would get probably 5 rounds to cast spells at all of us before we can even start moving toward him. Instead the ranger charged across the room and immediately got right in the casters face because we realized he was serious threat to everyones survival.
... Are you metagaming? How do you know if he is a spellcaster untill he casts? ...
That is usually one of our first questions, "does one of them look like an obvious caster?" Often he looks like the classic caster. Robes and staff screaming for the minion to kill us. Even if we cann't tell but are suspiscious there is a caster, 1 or 2 of us will hold our action until we see someone start to cast a spell.
... just wear a hat of diguise to be wearing full plate. Even than, Clerics are spellcasters and they wear armor.
I do plan to do some disguising this time. But as soon as I start casting it will blow my cover.
Clerics are not usually as squishy or offensively dangerous. But if that is the only caster the bad guys had my grappler would still try to dance with him.
Don't have a sneak, have a non-rogue or multiclassed into martial trapfinder. Make that cleric a melee build or even better a battle oracle. Now you have three front line fighters. Enlarge a couple and get them combat reflexes and decent dexterity and getting close to the caster can be seriously risky.
I can see how it goes, but I think I will have a tough sell getting the other players to disrupt their builds just so I can survive.
Not sure what class you are, but expeditious retreat lets you get away fast if they get too close.
Always move on your turn. I forgot to once, and ended up with a dead sorcerer! Try to anticipate what enemies might do.
Use summoned monsters defensively. Summon more than one to both give the meleers some flanking and have something to stand between you and danger. Or use silent image to make it look like you have a defender. Some monsters might be fooled by a human-shaped dancing lights and attack it, if they're unintelligent.
Levitate, displacement, vanish, mirror image, gaseous form, spiderclimb... Try to have some scrolls of good escape/evasion spells you wouldn't normally have memorized.
That said, low level is tough on arcane casters, for obvious reasons. Remind your party of that, and use your own movement to stay in relative safety.
Other than everything that's been mentioned in this thread already...
Mirror Image is your friend. It's probably the second most regularly cast spell in my campaign (other than haste) and never goes completely out of fashion. Secondly, flying keeps you out of the way of melee, and unless the enemies have a whole bunch of archers, a mix of miss chances and mirror image should keep you safe.
Lastly, the teleportation subschool makes you very hard to pin down. The demon teleports next to you? A swift action puts you on the other side of the BSF (bonus points if you have dimensional agility).
That's just my experience with having played a couple of wizards. I found that they are extremely hard to kill other than by another spellcaster.
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Oh, I never have trouble with it. My DM never targets them, and the fighters stay between the monsters and the squishies!Pretty much this in my experience while DMing. Best example I remember was a campaign where fights frequently went as such: the party sorcerer racing to the front, shooting lightning and cackling (player's description), the party wizard hanging back, behind the fighter, monk, and rogue and taking potshots. I believe it was better than three quarters into the campaign before the latter was ever attacked in melee, and that took a teleporting demon. The group I run for tends to be pretty solid about keeping the softies behind a wall of steel.
I think this on is serious.
Why would any intelligent monster not target the casters before the melee, if they are able.
Closing on the Melee puts the melee into their advantageous position (aka able to make full attacks) while closing on casters puts then at a disadvantage (need to cast on the defensive).
The goal of the party is to protect the squishies in the back, but this isn't the goal of any intelligent creatures you would fight.
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I think this on is serious.
Why would any intelligent monster not target the casters before the melee, if they are able.
Closing on the Melee puts the melee into their advantageous position (aka able to make full attacks) while closing on casters puts then at a disadvantage (need to cast on the defensive).
The goal of the party is to protect the squishies in the back, but this isn't the goal of any intelligent creatures you would fight.
Just because their goal is to get to the squishies doesn't mean they can achieve it. That's the point people are trying to make.
Provided that the melee characters know how to act as interceptors, and the squishy characters know how to utilize control abilities, there is just so many ways to keep the squishies out of harms way. This is another big reason why the people who run casters around these boards favor initiative bonuses so much. If you act before the baddies and consequently prevent them from moving for a round or two...
In single enemy encounters...one of the issues the SoS casters tend to have is they are very vulnerable to swarms of under CR creatures since unlike other classes they have an AC low enough to still be hit but under CR creatures.
Yes you can burn a control spell...if they are coming from one direction and you have the right one memorized...
Wizards aren't exactly known for high perception checks.
In our Age of Worms game I am playing a level 12 conjurer. I always have teleports D doors prepped plus a spell-like ability to teleport short distances everyday I am fine to let the rest of the party do their thing and I can be wherever I need to be whenever I need to be there. Also plenty of summons keep me safe and support the melee types. From this totally mobile position I can then blast away and stay safe. But that kind of ability only kicks in at higher levels.
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... Are you metagaming? How do you know if he is a spellcaster untill he casts? ...That is usually one of our first questions, "does one of them look like an obvious caster?" Often he looks like the classic caster. Robes and staff screaming for the minion to kill us. Even if we cann't tell but are suspiscious there is a caster, 1 or 2 of us will hold our action until we see someone start to cast a spell.It is my opinion that a worldly NPC or monster will either do the same or look hard for a caster in any group. Even if the PC has a hat of disguise, if his mannerisms and behavior aren't typical for a fighter, he is still liable to be targeted.
A friend of mine was a combat photographer in the USMC. He bragged once about how he was 4th on the list to be shot if his group was ambushed.
Machine Gunner
Radio
Command
Photographer
Everyone elseHis reasoning was as simple as, "people will target intelligence because the camera makes us look different."
I think wizards always get hammered first if in robes (machine gunner) and close to the top if in a hat of disguise (radio or photographer).
It is simple logic to target the caster, at least the arcane caster.
They are the one not wearing armor.
If you want to dress up a monk as a caster, I'd let that fly, but if you encounter a group of adventurers it isn't hard to tell who is there to hit you with a sword and who is casting arcane spells.
Divine can be more fuzzy (although many, many adventures say enemies target the healers) but arcane casters are pretty easy to spot.
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I like how people completely ignore the concept of "your build can compensate" and just zero in on the obvious weakness, without thinking. Not to sound insulting though, sorry if it did.In single enemy encounters...one of the issues the SoS casters tend to have is they are very vulnerable to swarms of under CR creatures since unlike other classes they have an AC low enough to still be hit but under CR creatures.
Yes you can burn a control spell...if they are coming from one direction and you have the right one memorized...
Wizards aren't exactly known for high perception checks.
It did, but I insult people all the time so it's only fair :)
I don't want to get into the "I could have this" game, as unless one side is willing to post a build they can always have anything.
The fact is Wizard generally dump wisdom and don't have perception as a class skill.
Can they take things to compensate? Sure.
Can Rogues get really high UMD scores and cast spells, sure.
Does that make them casters?
When confronting Sorcerers and casters, the best approach is to take them out first, as they generally are easier to take out quickly, and being close to them is a detriment to what they like to do while being close to a melee class is an advantage to what they want to do.
Don't stand in front of the monsters that will squish you, make yourself less squishy by not dumping con and taking toughness, and choose spells that hamper the enemy's movement/ability to squish you.
I tell you what, even if I was a silly orc, I think if a dude just nuked 30 of my buddies with a snap of his fingers, that's a FAR larger threat than that guy over there in the full plate.
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The caster can get away.
Casting provokes an AoO unless on the defensive which comes with a penalty. Moving, of course can also provoke an AoO.
Caster gets charged "Oh crap, oh crap, burn defensive spells, run away...:
Resources not devoted to killing thing attacking caster burned.
Melee gets charged "Sweet, I'm trading a single attack for a full attack in return. score."
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Due to our campaign fluff, the majority of the populace 'know of' magic and the danger every spell casters represents.
Granted their knowledge is sourced primarily from government propaganda designed to encourage a specific perception of spell casters.
Being a caster is akin to being socially cursed.
Casters, within society, are generally lynched, burnt, battered. The lucky ones find themselves incarcerated and quickly involved in a lengthy perceptual re-alignment scheme (system brain washing).
In combat, assuming their talents are known, they are typically targeted first, regardless of the actual threat they pose.
Hype and fear!
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The results are:
Casters tend to keep a low profile - especially at low levels.
Casters take Toughness/Survival-focused feats.
Casters take levels in other classes.
Casters tailor themselves towards 'espionage' style skill packages and setups.
Casters who survive to high levels are generally cunning, scheming, slippery bastards.
So, in a way, the stories the common folk hear are perfectly TRUE!
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Side note: Some might think this discourages folk from playing casters.
For us, it's been the opposite - everyone and their dog wants to get in on the cloak&dagger espionage magickery, the pariah with an agenda!
..Yes, it is common strategy to identify the biggest threat, and attempt to eliminate it...Last I checked, this wasn't a debate of "can casters die easily?" Cause I'm pretty sure the answer was already obvious. Isn't the point of this thread to explain why the caster isn't auto-f**ked? Isn't THAT the advice the OP wanted? Wasn't he asking how people compensate for their squishiness?...
Sorta yes and sorta no.
A lot of people (look at several of the first replies) say their casters are never targeted and never in danger. If your caster is ever in danger either you are a lowsy player or your GM is out to get you.
When I was working on a survivable caster build, many posters impied that was a waste of time. You just cast a handful of buffs then several debuffs/controls and you are safe. Apparently they always have time to do that.
Some people seem to feel that worrying about the AC, HP, and saves of casters in not worth while.
I was kinda curious/confused as to how their experiences could have generated that attitude.
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Sorta yes and sorta no.
A lot of people (look at several of the first replies) say their casters are never targeted and never in danger. If your caster is ever in danger either you are a lowsy player or your GM is out to get you.
Your GM should not be out to get you, personally.
You GM is running NPC's and monsters that are, in fact, out to get your party.
If you have a bad GM, you may not have to worry about every being targeted.
Hence the reason YMMV.