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The spell in question was Fire Storm but this applies to all shapeable spells. The player wanted to place the cubes so that it affected bad guys on either side of the party. Putting one cube to the right and then another up on a ridge and few more to the left.
I said that "shapeable" meant you can only do one contiguous shape. The player argued she should be able to place her cubes anywhere and that the sides of the cubes did not have to touch each other. She said she can make whatever shapes she wanted within the range of the spell.
Who is right by RAW?
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with "(S)," you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes. Three-dimensional volumes are most often needed to define aerial or underwater effects and areas.
I agree with your player. Nothing in the rules states that the shape constituting the spell's area must be contiguous.
That smuggles in the assertion that a singular shaped area must be contiguous--i.e., that you can't have one area with two or more disjoint portions. Whether that is what the design team was asserting, I do not know.
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Raw, there's nothing stopping you from creating multiple non-contiguous area effects with shapeable spells. I personally am of the opinion that that is not RAI and will always houserule that shapeable spells must be contiguous in my games.
But RAW, yep, your player is correct until you houserule otherwise.
I agree that it's not called out explicitly in the rules. However, I've always been under the impression that fire storm allowed discontinuous areas.
I would like to point out that neither Ball Lightning nor Meteor Swarm have the shapable tag and so by the logic given by some in this thread both of these spells would absolutely be limited to continuous areas. Even though it's pretty obvious that Ball Lightning is supposed to act like a multi-flaming sphere and meteor swarm is supposed to act like a multi-fireball. Both, allowing targeting independent of each other's areas and locations. Even the spell Fire Snake doesn't have the shapable tag even though it feels like the very definition of being a shapable spell. I also feel like its the spell that gives players the idea that areas must be continuous. Even though Fire Snakes area is literally "see text", making it an explicit exception to the normal rules.
I would also like to point out the spell earthquake. It does have the shapable tag even though it's area of effect is given as simply an "80ft radius spread". I can only conclude that shapable allows the caster to negate squares within the specified area. I don't see any indication that shaping it differently would allow it to affect something more then 80 feet away from its center.
For this reason, I don't think the shapable tag has any bearing on if a spell's area is required to be continuous. Rather, it matters how the area is defined. As Azothath mentioned wall spells tend to specify a single wall covering a certain area. Within the defined area you can remove and/or rearrange squares so long as the resulting shape isn't less then 10 feet in any one dimension (as per the definition of shapable) unless the spell specifies otherwise (see wall of stone and thickness). If a spell defines that you get X AxA blocks then each AxA block can be placed however you wish within the given range of the spell. You could put them next to each other but you don't have to (as per Ball Lightning and Meteor Swarm). If a spell is shapable then you can adjust any combined area to be whatever shape you like so long as no one dimension is less than 10x10.
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Area: Some spells affect an area.
One area, not Several areas.
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with “(S),”
you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet.
Again, it speaks of one area, not multiples.
@LordKailas
Area four 40-ft.-radius spreads, see text
A specific case that explicitly says "see text".
Effect two or more 5-ft.-diameter spheres
No area at all, an effect.
So exactly what is your argument?
Area: Some spells affect an area.One area, not Several areas.
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with “(S),”
you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet.Again, it speaks of one area, not multiples.
@LordKailas
Area four 40-ft.-radius spreads, see textA specific case that explicitly says "see text".
Effect two or more 5-ft.-diameter spheresNo area at all, an effect.
So exactly what is your argument?
Ball Lighting I will concede. I only mentioned it because it had been brought up earlier in the thread. It is not a shapeable spell nor does it even have an area entry.
Do the areas given by meteor swarm have to connect or can they be separate? The spell text only talks about what happens when they overlap (granting an extra effect when this happens). It doesn't say anything about them not having to be continuous. Meaning that if continuity is a normal requirement of areas it would still apply to this spell as well.
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Area: Some spells affect an area.One area, not Several areas.
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with “(S),”
you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet.Again, it speaks of one area, not multiples.
@LordKailas
Area four 40-ft.-radius spreads, see textA specific case that explicitly says "see text".
Effect two or more 5-ft.-diameter spheresNo area at all, an effect.
So exactly what is your argument?
Ball Lighting I will concede. I only mentioned it because it had been brought up earlier in the thread. It is not a shapeable spell nor does it even have an area entry.
Do the areas given by meteor swarm have to connect or can they be separate? The spell text only talks about what happens when they overlap (granting an extra effect when this happens). It doesn't say anything about them not having to be continuous. Meaning that if continuity is a normal requirement of areas it would still apply to this spell as well.
Meteor swarm is a very powerful and spectacular spell that is similar to fireball in many aspects. When you cast it, four 2-foot-diameter spheres spring from your outstretched hand and streak in straight lines to the spots you select. The meteor spheres leave a fiery trail of sparks.
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Once a sphere reaches its destination, it explodes in a 40-foot-radius spread, dealing 6d6 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.
In practice, you fire four fireballs to four different spots. Again, what it do is fully described in the text of the spell. As written you can fire one North, one SoutEast, one West and one straight above or all four against the same spot (or whatever combination of directions and targets you want).
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Earthquake is a good catch as an oddball spell, but:
- spread say: "A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes."
- and burst: "A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends."
So what we have? An area of effect where the spell spread up to 80' from a start point and you should pay the distance cost of every turn you are forced to make to get to the point affected. You can exclude some spots into the area of effect as the spell is shapeable, but you must pay the turns to move around them. It seems exactly the description of a single area of effect.
In practice, you fire four fireballs to four different spots. Again, what it do is fully described in the text of the spell. As written you can fire one North, one SoutEast, one West and one straight above or all four against the same spot (or whatever combination of directions and targets you want).
That isn't how the spell is written though. Instead of giving an Area it would define it the same way ball lightening does as 4 separate effects. Additionally, if you actually fired four fireballs at four points, overlapping areas would allow a save against each fireball independently and any fire resistance the creature has would apply against each fireball it got hit by. Instead, its defined as an area, that you are allowed to place such that it overlaps with its self (as per the spell text). When the overlap happens you get to stack the damage, but the enemy only gets 1 save and its fire resistance only applies once.
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In practice, you fire four fireballs to four different spots. Again, what it do is fully described in the text of the spell. As written you can fire one North, one SoutEast, one West and one straight above or all four against the same spot (or whatever combination of directions and targets you want).That isn't how the spell is written though. Instead of giving an Area it would define it the same way ball lightening does as 4 separate effects. Additionally, if you actually fired four fireballs at four points, overlapping areas would allow a save against each fireball independently and any fire resistance the creature has would apply against each fireball it got hit by. Instead, its defined as an area, that you are allowed to place such that it overlaps with its self (as per the spell text). When the overlap happens you get to stack the damage, but the enemy only gets 1 save and its fire resistance only applies once.
If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. Despite stemming from separate spheres, all of the fire damage is added together after the saves have been made, and fire resistance is applied only once.
Four separate saves and a specific rule (again) that says "If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. Despite stemming from separate spheres, all of the fire damage is added together after the saves have been made, and fire resistance is applied only once."
What do you want more?You seem to have problems with the idea that specific rules override general rules.
Four separate saves and a specific rule (again) that says "If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. Despite stemming from separate spheres, all of the fire damage is added together after the saves have been made, and fire resistance is applied only once."
What do you want more?You seem to have problems with the idea that speci
I have no issues with it. I'm of the assertion that areas don't need to connect. Because it specifics x number of AxA areas. Same as firestorm and that this is independent of the shapable tag
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I have no issues with it. I'm of the assertion that areas don't need to connect. Because it specifics x number of AxA areas. Same as firestorm and that this is independent of the shapable tagFour separate saves and a specific rule (again) that says "If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. Despite stemming from separate spheres, all of the fire damage is added together after the saves have been made, and fire resistance is applied only once."
What do you want more?You seem to have problems with the idea that speci
You use unrelated examples that have specific rules to support something that hasn't the same or similar specific rules. It is like using oranges to explain the nutritional values of meat.
Area two 10-ft. cubes per level (S)
It never says that it can be divided into several smaller areas.
Without a specific rule saying otherwise, you default to the generic rule. And the generic rule says that you get an area. Not multiples.
You use unrelated examples that have specific rules to support something that hasn't the same or similar specific rules. It is like using oranges to explain the nutritional values of meat.
Area two 10-ft. cubes per level (S)It never says that it can be divided into several smaller areas.
Without a specific rule saying otherwise, you default to the generic rule. And the generic rule says that you get an area. Not multiples.
Area four 40-ft.-radius spreads, see text
both state you get x AxA areas of a particular shape. Since neither spell makes any statement regarding if these areas are required to be connected or not then i expect them to be treated the same.
i dont understand why you insist these spells would be different.