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Magic weapon is a first level spell that makes a weapon +1 striking. This lets players have a weapon 3 levels before they could normally buy it or enhance a backup weapon. I like the gameplay of a caster enchancing a main weapon for boss fights, so I want to allow heighting magic weapon to get access to higher levels of basic magic runes. I'm thinking:
The weapon glimmers with magic and energy. The target becomes a +1 striking weapon, gaining a +1 item bonus to attack rolls and increasing the number of weapon damage dice to two.
Heightened (6th): The target becomes a +2 greater striking weapon instead, gaining a +2 item bonus to attack rolls and and increasing the number of weapon damage dice to three.
Heightened (10th) The target becomes a +3 Major striking weapon instead, gaining a +3 item bonus to attack rolls and and increasing the number of weapon damage dice to four.
This makes resistances to weapon types and materials less effective against a well-prepared party, but I'm ok with that.
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Based on the levels you've chosen for the spell to heighten at, I don't see a problem.
You could at level 12 and 19 have the greater striking and major striking runes, and martial characters absolutely would.
So where this would come into play is your characters having a backup weapon that bypasses DR or exploits weaknesses, but honestly I think that should be encouraged. This is pretty niche, as it requires you to already have the right kind of weapon with you, and then spend an action in combat to raise it up to the effectiveness as compared to your main weapon, and you're only seeing the benefit of not having you damage output reduced on a monster with special resistances.
Overall, I like this.
Zapp, my concern would be allowing the heightened versions to grant bonuses before martial characters could buy them.
It's not necessarily a huge issue, but if you want to be certain there's no power creep I think you have to to leave them at 6th and 9th level spells at best.
But the spell cast at level 1 does grant the bonus before martials can buy it. So why not at levels 5 or 8?
Because we're talking homebrew and when it comes to measure of balance I wouldn't want to risk making something too good.
The difference between a +1 striking weapon and +2 greater striking weapon may not seem like that much, but is pretty significant.
Simply put, I hesitate to make it the same. But certainly no one would argue that it's too early if you make it available at a level when martial characters could have bought such a weapon.
The big part of that is "keep its existing...niche of being a temp source of magic weaponry before it's otherwise available".
I don't. And I don't see it as necessary for the spell to have utility as the OP outlined in.
My balance concerns are such that I wouldn't want to disturb the existing balance of things. By selecting 6th and 9th level spells no one could argue that you're harming balance because martials could already have those weapons.
By making higher level versions that you can obtain before martials could purchase the weapons you would definitely get arguments that it's not balanced.
That's my main point.
And that it doesn't need to keep the niche you're asking for.
I mean, I guess I disagree because it seems to be what the OP wanted.
I have to side more with Claxon on this one using Mage Armor as an example. Except for the initial level (as well as the first +1 to saves), the heightened versions land either on the same level martials could access or a level later.
It seems the balance towards bonuses are weighted towards martials first beyond level 4 and probably should remain that way when adding content.
I have to side more with Claxon on this one using Mage Armor as an example. Except for the initial level (as well as the first +1 to saves), the heightened versions land either on the same level martials could access or a level later.
It seems the balance towards bonuses are weighted towards martials first beyond level 4 and probably should remain that way when adding content.Mage Armor isn't a good comparison point because Mage Armor has a duration of 24 hours. It's a spell designed to replace normal armor for mages. It's designed to be cast at the beginning of the day, pre-combat.
Magic Weapon duration is 1 minute. The spell's effect has to be worth the two-action cost spent during combat.
Gee, if you wanna get that picky about it; heightened magic weapon doesn’t exist anyway. However, the spell is being used just like mage armor as a replacement for the runes. Making the new spell also allows for wands and staves to have it meaning you can recast it for free. Duration is the least important variable in the comparison or value of the spell.
Everyone is free to make believe whatever made up rules they want for their games!
Because we're talking homebrew and when it comes to measure of balance I wouldn't want to risk making something too good.
The difference between a +1 striking weapon and +2 greater striking weapon may not seem like that much, but is pretty significant.
Simply put, I hesitate to make it the same. But certainly no one would argue that it's too early if you make it available at a level when martial characters could have bought such a weapon.
This is the Mutagens argument all over again, where consuming an appropriate-level Mutagen will give you +1 more than the baseline of that level. Are we now going to say that Mutagens are overpowered and shouldn't function that way, even though Magic Weapon is in an identical state of usefulness right at the gate?
By comparison, a 1st level character is able to have a +1 Striking weapon via the Magic Weapon spell 3 levels before they have it as a baseline. Simply having it scale to 20th level in the same fashion (such as a 5th level Magic Weapon creating +2 Greater Striking, and 8th level making +3 Major Striking, and even 10th level making a +4 Major Striking) isn't a bad thing, especially since everyone trampled over Spellcasters having their own thing because it shunned Martials back in PF1.
Considering the spellcaster is burning spell slots to make the Martial better at doing Martial things (which even still does cap out by 20th level onward), I don't really see the problem when they aren't using their spell slots to take away from Martials by comparison with spell effects like Time Stop, Gate, Teleport, etc.
This is what I currently have in my homebrew campaign.
Traditions arcane, divine, occult Cast 2 somatic, verbal Range touch
Targets 1 weapon that is unattended or wielded by you or a willing ally. Duration 1 minute.
The weapon glimmers with magical runes and is charged with arcane energy. Temporally boosts the weapon with a +1 weapon potency rune and a Striking Rune, gaining a +1 item bonus to attack rolls and increasing the number of weapon damage dice to two. Weapons with existing weapon and striking runes will only gain the befit of the more powerful rune for the duration of the spell. Since it’s a spell and not a normal rune it will not allow the engraving of property runes while this spell is active due to the temporary nature of the spell.
Heightened (3rd) Temporally boosts the weapon to a +2 weapon potency rune & a Striking rune (2 dice).
Heightened (5th) Temporally boosts the weapon to a +2 weapon potency rune & a Greater Striking rune (3 dice).
Heightened (7th) Temporally boosts the weapon to a +3 weapon potency rune & a Greater Striking rune (3 dice).
Heightened (9th) Temporally boosts the weapon to a +3 weapon potency rune & a Major Striking rune (4 dice).
I was critiquing what the OP proposed and wasn't attempting to propose a spell on par with what is already published.
If you made it 5th and 8th level spells, guaranteed people would say it's too powerful.
Personally, I don't play PF2 and obviously wont use such a a homebrew spell at all.
But yeah, if it makes you feel better call it "Magic Backup Weapon Spell" and change the duration to hr per level.
If magic weapon heightens, can it AOE?
In game of thrones the red woman put flaming on an entire army's swords. Though in fairness from what little it did, it could have been an illusion.
I was critiquing what the OP proposed and wasn't attempting to propose a spell on par with what is already published.
If you made it 5th and 8th level spells, guaranteed people would say it's too powerful.
Personally, I don't play PF2 and obviously wont use such a a homebrew spell at all.
But yeah, if it makes you feel better call it "Magic Backup Weapon Spell" and change the duration to hr per level.
Magic Weapon as it is, is too powerful for 1st through 3rd level PCs by that same reasoning. By 4th level there are better uses for those spell slots due to WBL rules. Like True Strike. Or Command. Or Magic Missile. Or...you get the idea.
Plus, at higher levels, it's exponentially less of a factor, when the actual bonus you get at 1st level is the same net bonus you get in the future levels. +1 to hit and +1 dice is powerful, yes. But not any more powerful than if you prepared other spell slots, especially when those spells are just free temporary rune upgrades, which the Magus actually got as an ability in the Playtest, and it was good, but still has both an opportunity and a resource cost.
I guess I would come at this from another direction which is:
If it's not a problem to heighten the spell at the levels suggested why didn't Paizo publish a version that did exactly that? Heightening at 5th and 8th spell levels respectively?
Reversing engineering those spell levels was pretty straight forward.
So why didn't Paizo?
In any event, there's no benefit (to me) to continue to argue about homebrew rules.
The OP, your proposed idea seems just fine. Overly weak to several of the posters in the thread in fact. Make of it what you will.
I think it doesn't heighten because at high level it is spammabke by staff etc. I know it has a casting time but it still saves you magic item budget.
I would like it if it was heightenable and AOEable but the way it affects treasure balance is why I don't trust myself to balance it. This is one spell that can wreck a campaign if it is wrong.
I will also add, I always try to be very conservative when adding (homebrew) content to table top games, trying to ensure that anything I would add doesn't outshine existing options.
Sometimes the inherent balance is a little off, and you can safely add shine to something.
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Why not just use the one that was in the Magus playtest? That way we don't have to guess.
MAGUS POTENCY FOCUS 1
UNCOMMON
EVOCATION
MAGUS
Cast [one-action] somatic
Range touch; Targets you or one weapon you’re wielding
Duration 1 minute
The target gains the benefit of a +1 weapon potency rune, granting a +1 item bonus to attack rolls with the targeted weapon or your unarmed attacks, if you targeted yourself. If cast on a weapon, this spell ends if you cease holding the weapon.
Heightened (3rd) The unarmed attacks or weapons are +1 striking.
Heightened (4th) The unarmed attacks or weapons are +2 striking.
Heightened (7th) The unarmed attacks or weapons are +3 greater striking.
Psst, everyone in this thread should just go and bomb the same topic thread in the Pathfinder 2nd Main forum. Same topic. Go cause a ruckus.
That's rather nasty of you, Tristan. :-(
Like exact same thread like exact same thread. Proposing same stuff. From chaos comes change, and from change comes growth
From what they've said, Secrets of Magic is likely finalised, and with production. Perhaps campaigning for changes should go on hold until we've seen it?
However, this is the homebrew section, so I think it's on topic to discuss doing it here in a home game.
It's the exact same conversation. The threads should be merged.
You keep saying that. Wouldn't hurt my feelings any, but maybe you should be talking to the folks who actually have the power to do that.
They are currently if not overwhelmed then whelmed with work. You should see their replies when they've had to delete posts or lock threads.