
Gaulin |

I'm always attracted to builds that need very little and can keep attacking without expending resources. I'm wondering if there are any feats or builds etc. that I've overlooked.
So far I really like barbarian, as they can rage as many times as they want, and certain kinds of barbarians need very few items. Spirit and dragon especially, with spirit getting a ranged attack that doesn't benefit from items and dragon getting the ability to turn into a dragon as long as you rage, and polymorph can't benefit from items anyway.
Druid is another, especially with a sorcerers refocus ability and form control means indefinite wild shaping.
Casters in general are okay with cantrips, but a single martial regular strike (ignoring all the other feats they can get to improve their damage) does as much or more than a two action cantrip. I know in the grand scheme of things it's balanced because of spells, but as I've said I'm looking more for longevity (not really looking to have arguments about how you should never have so many encounters in a day/you will have all the spells you need/etc).
Has anyone come up with any other neat builds?

Siro |
Polymorph would most likely be the best bet. A Bard (which would be very much weaker than a Polymorph) could possibly go item less, basically spending combat casting compositions Cantrips, (Inspire Courage, Inspire Defence, Dirge of Doom, Triple Time ) and utilizing feats such as Harmonize (and classing into Sorcerer for there refocus) to help keep multiple ones up at a time. You can be a mini heal bot if you can pick up Soothing Ballad. To round out, you may want to take some knowledge skills/ class feats, that affect knowledge. You are basically the support.
Also, depending on your definition of not expanding resources, you could pick up Mage Armor, giving you at least some protection without items. It does use a slot, but it lasts until your next daily preparations, when you would regain it. (ie, your not using the resource pre say, you are just turning it into something else.)
Of course, without question there are some major weaknesses, making the Polymorph path ultimately superior. If your planning to not use non-cantrip spells, your damage output will be next to zero, and your going to need friends to help with that, and in general. While Composition are generally independent of items, the Feats affecting them are often dependant on Skill checks which are affected by them, and without other spells, that’s going to be how you keep buffs and debuffs up. Ditto for knowledge, as, while you can make knowledge checks all day long, you would like some item bonus help. Basically, while they can both be useable, as long as you invest in pumping those number whenever you can, but don’t be surprised when it just does not work out.

Wheldrake |
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You could try a summoning build. Split your actions between summoning, which I think can last for a minute to ten, and shooting cantrips.
It can't go indefinitely but it should be good for a fair number of encounters unless they drag on for an incredibly long time.
Summoning appears very, very weak now, although I haven't actually seen any of it at the gaming table, so it's hard to know for sure.

Gaulin |

Summoning and spells you can sustain are good in the way that they make your spells last longer, but they're still expendable resources and usually last a minute. Expendable stuff and items are what I was hoping to avoid.
Bard cantrips are good for sure, support wise.
Couple other things I was thinking of; animal companions, while they don't do as much damage as a decked out pc of course, do pretty respectable damage and last as long as you can keep them alive. Also a monks whirling throw does equal and decent damage regardless of what items you wear.

Draco18s |

Summoning appears very, very weak now, although I haven't actually seen any of it at the gaming table, so it's hard to know for sure.
Summoning is garbage. The thing you summon is effectively [your level -4]*, which is a non-threat against a boss level enemy ([your level +2], it won't even get exp for killing the summon!) and a speedbump to one of the four [your level -2] enemies you're most likely facing (it is 1/4 of an appropriate level encounter for them).
*The chart is weird. Its slightly less harsh than that at low levels:
You conjure an animal to fight for you. You summon a common
creature that has the animal trait and whose level is –1. [level-2]
Heightening the spell increases the maximum level of creature
you can summon.
Heightened (2nd) Level 1. [level-2]
Heightened (3rd) Level 2. [level-3]
Heightened (4th) Level 3. [level-4]
Heightened (5th) Level 5. [level-4]
Heightened (6th) Level 7. [level-4]
Heightened (7th) Level 9. [level-4]
Heightened (8th) Level 11. [level-4]
Heightened (9th) Level 13. [level-4]
Heightened (10th) Level 15. [level-5]

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Let's examine this. Assuming you're a Wizard.
At level 20 (when there's the largest level gap possible), you can summon an Adult Gold Dragon, which has AC 38, and +30 to hit.
Let's say you're fighting a Balor (only level 21, but there are no level 22 monsters yet...and this is still the same 6 level difference summons have vs. a 'boss' for most of the game), who has AC 45.
First turn it goes, the dragon will move over, flank, and bite for an average of 15.525. Every turn thereafter it will continue being in flanking with a PC and use Draconic Frenzy, averaging 23.05 damage or thereabouts. And that's only a decent choice to fight a Balor. A level 15 Celestial may well do a lot better once we've got one.
That doesn't sound like very much damage. However, it's one action from the PC to do it, every turn, and goes up significantly if you can land any debuffs on the Balor.
I can't think of very many one action effects a Wizard can manage that do equivalent damage. Now, that does ignore the 3 actions to summon it the first turn, so in a fight likely to be quick it's probably a bad call...but if you have a turn to prep? Or the fight's clearly gonna be really long? Suddenly, that damage looks pretty good.
The Balor could certainly dispose of the Dragon with little risk in a one-on-one fight (which is why it wouldn't be considered a threat on its own), but with 330 HP, the dragon is durable enough that the Balor would need to waste multiple turns doing so. So if the Balor is stupid enough to do this, that's great.

kaid |

Polymorph would most likely be the best bet. A Bard (which would be very much weaker than a Polymorph) could possibly go item less, basically spending combat casting compositions Cantrips, (Inspire Courage, Inspire Defence, Dirge of Doom, Triple Time ) and utilizing feats such as Harmonize (and classing into Sorcerer for there refocus) to help keep multiple ones up at a time. You can be a mini heal bot if you can pick up Soothing Ballad. To round out, you may want to take some knowledge skills/ class feats, that affect knowledge. You are basically the support.
Also, depending on your definition of not expanding resources, you could pick up Mage Armor, giving you at least some protection without items. It does use a slot, but it lasts until your next daily preparations, when you would regain it. (ie, your not using the resource pre say, you are just turning it into something else.)
Of course, without question there are some major weaknesses, making the Polymorph path ultimately superior. If your planning to not use non-cantrip spells, your damage output will be next to zero, and your going to need friends to help with that, and in general. While Composition are generally independent of items, the Feats affecting them are often dependant on Skill checks which are affected by them, and without other spells, that’s going to be how you keep buffs and debuffs up. Ditto for knowledge, as, while you can make knowledge checks all day long, you would like some item bonus help. Basically, while they can both be useable, as long as you invest in pumping those number whenever you can, but don’t be surprised when it just does not work out.
Bards could do it pretty well if you were just going full caster. Do your cantrip buffs and then use your cantrip attacks and throw in some real spells as needed. I was jokingly thinking of a bag piper halfling bard. This edition you could legit just go to town honking your pipes full time and be effective.

Siro |
Yeah, summoning as of right now is fairly weak. However I believe they were intentionally designed to be at the level where they could 'function' if casted at the highest level. {with lower level versions acting as thin obstacles or flanking buddies.) To be able to do something, just not be really effective at it, unless summoned in the right situation for it. {where it gets better, but still made to not steal the show.)
This is because its balancing against two things. 1= It gives an additional action for the player turn, has minus the concentrate action, the player will have two actions for themselves, and two for the summon. Being able to increase your actions for a turn, even in a limited way through your summons, should be good. And 2= Summon spells no longer list what specific creature you can summon with it, instead allowing you to summon a host of creatures limited by type and level. This means the spell will have more variety {eventually, when we get more bestiaries see below}, meaning you will more likely able to summon something that can meet the needs of the situation. For example if you run into a group of enemies that you know have relatively low Ref saves for its level, you know a Summoned Dragon and its Breath attack will put in more work that what it normally does.
However, as of right now, with only one bestiary to summon things from, you don't have that variety. Most Summon Spells generally only can summon one maybe two things at the higher level versions, and there are some levels when they don't summon anything at all. For me at least, this is the main reason why it is weak, as it lives and dies by the summoners ability to be able to read the situation, and be able to summon things that will fit into that situation. With a lack of things to summon, however, this will not happen a lot of the time. Which also means the other strength of the spell, the additional action per turn, as you are paying one of your actions, for two actions which will general not be effective. Now, this does not mean it will become the most powerful when we do get more things to summon {again, there designed to not steal the show form other PCs, or become the instant win button even if summoned in the right situation, both of which we slight problems in PF1). However, I do not think we have seen these spells are fully capability yet. Unless RPing a summoner, generally avoid for now, but keep an eye on it.

Xenocrat |
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Let's examine this. Assuming you're a Wizard.
At level 20 (when there's the largest level gap possible), you can summon an Adult Gold Dragon, which has AC 38, and +30 to hit.
Let's say you're fighting a Balor (only level 21, but there are no level 22 monsters yet...and this is still the same 6 level difference summons have vs. a 'boss' for most of the game), who has AC 45.
First turn it goes, the dragon will move over, flank, and bite for an average of 15.525. Every turn thereafter it will continue being in flanking with a PC and use Draconic Frenzy, averaging 23.05 damage or thereabouts. And that's only a decent choice to fight a Balor. A level 15 Celestial may well do a lot better once we've got one.
That doesn't sound like very much damage. However, it's one action from the PC to do it, every turn, and goes up significantly if you can land any debuffs on the Balor.
I can't think of very many one action effects a Wizard can manage that do equivalent damage.
Implosion (75 points basic Fort save per action to sustain) (41.25 expected avg against a Balor)
Uncontrollable Dance (minimum of three rounds incurring an AOO from an ally, no sustained actions required, burns enemy actions)
Spellwrack only sets up 13 avg points of persistent damage per round, but it's level 6. Again, no actions to sustain.
A 10th level Flaming Sphere does...38.5 avg damage per round. (19.25 against a Balor if it didn't have fire immunity.) Yikes, Summon Dragon 10!
Summoning is quite weak unless the area denial/meat shield is particularly useful on top of the minor damage it inflicts. Each of the alternatives above have their own issues, of course (Implosion limit of 1/per target, Spellwrack depending on active spells on your target, fire resistance, etc.) but they also aren't subject to dispelling via damage inflicted and work in close quarters where you can't fit a huge creature.

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Implosion (75 points basic Fort save per action to sustain)
Implosion is worthless vs. a boss. It can never target the same victim twice. And vs. a non-boss, the Dragon does a significant chunk more damage.
Uncontrollable Dance (minimum of three rounds incurring an AOO from an ally, no sustained actions required, burns enemy actions)
This spell is not sustained and takes two actions. It stacks with summoning, and is thus not a good comparison.
Spellwrack only sets up 13 avg points of persistent damage per round, but it's level 6. Again, no actions to sustain.
And again, this would stack with summoning, and is thus not really a good comparison.
A 10th level Flaming Sphere does...38.5 avg damage per round. Yikes, Summon Dragon 10!
That's not the average damage. That's the damage on a failed Save. The actual average on a Balor is 26.95 (ignoring its fire immunity, which we should for an example). That's legitimately higher! By less than four points a turn. As the same level of spell. Its also harder to move to keep up with a foe and doesn't provide flanking.
I'm not saying it's a ridiculously powerful spell, I'm saying its on par with other sustained spells that do damage every turn.
Summoning is quite bad unless the area denial/meat shield is particularly useful on top of the minor damage it inflicts. Each of the alternatives above have their own issues, of course (Implosion limit of 1/per target, Spellwrack depending on active spells on your target, fire resistance, etc.) but they also aren't subject to dispelling via damage inflicted and work in close quarters where you can't fit a huge creature.
The thing is, those limitations are super relevant. Summoning isn't always better than other spells, but it's not always worse either.

Xenocrat |

Xenocrat wrote:This spell is not sustained and takes two actions.
Uncontrollable Dance (minimum of three rounds incurring an AOO from an ally, no sustained actions required, burns enemy actions)
This is so mindboggling as a point of comparison in your defense that it feels uncharitable to respond to the rest. Are you getting enough sleep?
But yes, summon spells in a contrived example are not strictly worse than every other spell option all of the time. They are just generally worse than most other spell options most of the time at the cost of your highest level spell slots and an extra action to cast.

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This is so mindboggling as a point of comparison in your defense that it feels uncharitable to respond to the rest. Are you getting enough sleep?
I was stating it as an advantage of Uncontrollable Dance. You can have a Summon or other Sustained damage effect going, and then also cast the Dance, stacking the effects (given that it provokes AoO, which the Dragon has, it actually synchronizes really well...it ups the Dragon's DPR to north of 38 points per turn).
My point was that it stacks with summon and is thus not a good comparison as an alternative. You use them for different things or combine them.
But yes, summon spells in a contrived example are not strictly worse than every other spell option all of the time. They are just generally worse than most other spell options most of the time at the cost of your highest level spell slots and an extra action to cast.
I disagree. I think they synchronize well with a lot of other spell options if used properly.

sherlock1701 |

Casters in general are okay with cantrips, but a single martial regular strike (ignoring all the other feats they can get to improve their damage) does as much or more than a two action cantrip. I know in the grand scheme of things it's balanced because of spells.
It's not balanced, spells are pretty lackluster now. Mostly just there for flashy variety compared to PF1 where they were actually worthwhile.

Captain Morgan |

Deadmanwalking wrote:Xenocrat wrote:This spell is not sustained and takes two actions.
Uncontrollable Dance (minimum of three rounds incurring an AOO from an ally, no sustained actions required, burns enemy actions)This is so mindboggling as a point of comparison in your defense that it feels uncharitable to respond to the rest. Are you getting enough sleep?
But yes, summon spells in a contrived example are not strictly worse than every other spell option all of the time. They are just generally worse than most other spell options most of the time at the cost of your highest level spell slots and an extra action to cast.
That doesn't seem especially contrived. Someone said they weren't useful against a boss, so DMW put them against a boss. Seems pretty straight forward.