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Its recently been pointed out to me that the Invulnerable Rager archetype for Barbarians doesn't qualify for the Increased Damage Reduction Rage powers nor does it qualify for other abilities like Dragon Totem Resilience because it replaces the Barbarian Damage Reduction class feature with Invulnerability.
If true (and the wording of the abilities seems to suggest it is), I can't imagine that this was intended by the designers, that the 'Invulnerable' archetype which is built specifically around DR is not only unable to take any of the DR enhancements offered by the class, but can be significantly outstripped by pretty much any other archetype that is able to take them.
Any thoughts or insight on this?
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Increased Damage Reduction refers to "Barbarian's Damage Reduction", so that depends on whether or not you think it is referring to the Class Ability called Damage Reduction (which I think it does) and not to the ability on page 561 called Damage Reduction that may or may not be provided by a class called Barbarian.
One interpretation is natural and the other has lots of ifs and whens.
As I said in the other thread whwn this came up. Archetypes are very clear in what the loss of class abilities means.
In this case both the increase to damage reduction rage power and dragon totem resilience refer specifically to the class ability the invuln ragee no longer posses.
I think from the raw its clear the imvuln rager doesn't benefit. That said in a home game I have no issue with ir but for pfa they are sol.
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You can get higher DR from fighter archetypes than you can from an Invulnerable Rager.
how?
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You can get higher DR from fighter archetypes than you can from an Invulnerable Rager.
The problem RAW is that you can get higher DR from other Barbarian archetypes than you can from Invulnerable Rager which is based on DR.
From my reading it appears Dragon Totem Resilience is out, but the Increased DR option is not, as it refers generically to whatever DR the Barbarian might possess, not specifically to the Damage Reduction class feature. Case in point:
Dragon Totem Resilience:
Benefit: While raging, the barbarian gains resistance to the energy type that is associated with her dragon totem—acid (black, copper, green), cold (silver, white), electricity (blue, bronze), or fire (brass, gold, red). This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one.
Increased Damage Reduction:
Benefit: The barbarian's damage reduction increases by 1/—. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging.
Oh, from the other thread it sounded like Dragon Totem Resilience increased a Barbarian's DR, too. I was totally about to run off and draft one up, but it just gives them energy resistance.
Dragon Totem Resilience absolutely increases the Barbarian's DR... its just that, due to poor wording, it does not RAW increase the Invulnerable Rager's DR since he replaces the class feature with something different.
I'm fairly certain most GM's would rule it as working with both, and I believe that was the intent as well.
Frome the other thread:
There have been rulings that abilities can still be treated as their standard version. Like the dragoon's spear training that is treated as weapon training for effects that modify it. Like the duellist gloves.Seems applicable to me here. It changes the power and the name but it is still similar enough in what it does that it can be treated as the original ability.
This sounds like the argument about animal companions, some classes have a different name for it as a class feature. How does that interact with feats/items/abilities.
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Oh, from the other thread it sounded like Dragon Totem Resilience increased a Barbarian's DR, too. I was totally about to run off and draft one up, but it just gives them energy resistance.Dragon Totem Resilience absolutely increases the Barbarian's DR... its just that, due to poor wording, it does not RAW increase the Invulnerable Rager's DR since he replaces the class feature with something different.
I'm fairly certain most GM's would rule it as working with both, and I believe that was the intent as well.
I'm absolutely convinced that DTR does not increase your DR. It only gives you energy resistance.
But this conversation is now split across two threads.
Oh, from the other thread it sounded like Dragon Totem Resilience increased a Barbarian's DR, too. I was totally about to run off and draft one up, but it just gives them energy resistance.Dragon Totem Resilience absolutely increases the Barbarian's DR... its just that, due to poor wording, it does not RAW increase the Invulnerable Rager's DR since he replaces the class feature with something different.
I'm fairly certain most GM's would rule it as working with both, and I believe that was the intent as well.
I'm absolutely convinced that DTR does not increase your DR. It only gives you energy resistance.
But this conversation is now split across two threads.
Really:
Translate this gem- this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one.I read that as it increases DR. By 2. For each Dragon Totem Rage power. Including this one.
How do you translate that?
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Really:
Translate this gem- this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one.I read that as it increases DR. By 2. For each Dragon Totem Rage power. Including this one.
How do you translate that?
It's pretty easy to see an implied "for purposes of how much energy resistance you get" on there, especially compared to the actual Improved Damage Reduction rage power.
Based on that I'm fairly certain RAI is that it only increases your energy resistance by 4 per totem power. RAW, however, I can see both interpretations.
Armor Master gets a permanent DR 15/-You can get higher DR from fighter archetypes than you can from an Invulnerable Rager.how?
At level 19, and For some reason I think it doe snot stack with stalwart like the DR from invulnerable rager.
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Here are two questions for FAQ purposes:
Does the Invulnerability (Ex) class feature of the Invulnerable Rager Barbarian archetype count as still having the Damage Reduction (Ex) class feature of a Barbarian for purposes of what feats and rage powers for which he may qualify, such as the Stalwart feat line and the Dragon Totem rage power line?
Does the Dragon Totem rage power line increase Damage Reduction or just Resistance?
Yes, this is now across two threads, lol.
The only point that I can see that goes with what Hendelbolaf and others are saying is that it does reference DR as a +2 and not resistance increase. Energy resistance is not measured in DR, so there is that.
So either they wanted your DR to go up or they wanted your resistance to go up.
I am on the side that they meant resistance, since that is what this rage power is focused on, but as Ryric says, by RAW, I can see both interpretations.
DR and energy resistance are two completely different, unambiguously defined things. The power clearly says the DR increases. I guess you can say you think the guy who wrote that messed up, but as far as rules are concerned it is 100% clear.
Regarding "Damage Reduction" isn't the same as "Invulnerability," I would be inclined to say that they are the same, based on this FAQ, but I can still see it as a bit ambiguous.
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Its recently been pointed out to me that the Invulnerable Rager archetype for Barbarians doesn't qualify for the Increased Damage Reduction Rage powers nor does it qualify for other abilities like Dragon Totem Resilience because it replaces the Barbarian Damage Reduction class feature with Invulnerability.
Any thoughts or insight on this?
The following rage powers complement the invulnerable rager archetype: come and get me, guarded life, increased damage reduction*, inspire ferocity, reckless abandon, and renewed vigor*.
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Its recently been pointed out to me that the Invulnerable Rager archetype for Barbarians doesn't qualify for the Increased Damage Reduction Rage powers nor does it qualify for other abilities like Dragon Totem Resilience because it replaces the Barbarian Damage Reduction class feature with Invulnerability.
Any thoughts or insight on this?
The following rage powers complement the invulnerable rager archetype: come and get me, guarded life, increased damage reduction*, inspire ferocity, reckless abandon, and renewed vigor*.
Well, I guess that certainly answers that.
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DR and energy resistance are two completely different, unambiguously defined things. The power clearly says the DR increases. I guess you can say you think the guy who wrote that messed up, but as far as rules are concerned it is 100% clear.
As I pointed out in the other thread, there are at least 4 other Paizo published abilities that state you receive DR against a particular element, so this is obviously something that is prone to typos.
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It says the DR increases, but it looks like it is talking about the DR used to calculate the energy resistance.
Edited:
While raging, the barbarian gains resistance to the energy type that is associated with her dragon totem—acid (black, copper, green), cold (silver, white), electricity (blue, bronze), or fire (brass, gold, red). This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one. A barbarian must have the dragon totem rage power and be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power.
DR and energy resistance are two completely different, unambiguously defined things. The power clearly says the DR increases. I guess you can say you think the guy who wrote that messed up, but as far as rules are concerned it is 100% clear.As I pointed out in the other thread, there are at least 4 other Paizo published abilities that state you receive DR against a particular element, so this is obviously something that is prone to typos.
I don't believe I saw that (or that thread). If you're talking RAI,fair enough, but I took what I responded to to mean that it was RAW ambiguous... I only skimmed the topic so maybe I missed he meant RAI too.
I hope Paizo doesn't errata this to energy resistance as that would mean we're back to only have one not mediocre or terrible Totem line, but then again it's a Barbarian thing so it's probably safe as Barbarian's are allowed to have nice things.
I have never seen DR against an element. What ability(ies) say that?
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It says the DR increases, but it looks like it is talking about the DR used to calculate the energy resistance.
I would say that if it was meant to strictly count DR as 2 higher for the purposes of energy resistance, it would have just said "raise the energy resistance by 4 for each Dragon Totem power you have," but I know well enough by now that such an argument is pretty much baseless; who knows why the guy who wrote it worded it the way he did.
So yeah, who knows. Also I wasn't trying to sarcastically put you down with the previous paragraph (thought I should mention as, you know, its in text); the lack of clarity sometimes just makes me facepalm.
One reason that I believe that "increased DR" does not stack with invulnerability is that invulnerability provides special DR that counts double for non-lethal damage. Are you saying that when you add "increased DR" that in increases this? Or do you need to track which DR is from invulnerability and which is from other sources that don't provide the non-lethal protection?
Or do they all just stack? In other words when you activate stalwart/improved stalwart does the DR provide 2x protection against non-lethal damage?
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Its recently been pointed out to me that the Invulnerable Rager archetype for Barbarians doesn't qualify for the Increased Damage Reduction Rage powers nor does it qualify for other abilities like Dragon Totem Resilience because it replaces the Barbarian Damage Reduction class feature with Invulnerability.
Any thoughts or insight on this?
The following rage powers complement the invulnerable rager archetype: come and get me, guarded life, increased damage reduction*, inspire ferocity, reckless abandon, and renewed vigor*.
Quoting because not enough people saw it.
So, the fact that the invulnerable rager that already get more DR than standard barb can't raw get extra DR is clearly a miswriting and should be fixed.
The fact that a rage power is more than double as effective as one other instead is clearly intended, and not in any amount a miswriting.
Does anyone here sees a pattern?
Oh I see looking at dragon resiliance again its uncleR if it does 1 or 2 things.
1)the rage power says to check the barbarians current dr from the barbarian damage reduction class feature. That is then used as resistance.
2)it then says to increase this dr by 2 per dragon totem power.
I think its basically all talking about resistance. So a lvl 8 barb has dr 1 (double for the resistance) without the extra dr. It its kind of useless.
So for the purposes of rezistance its adding 4 more for the two feats at lvl 8 for rrsistance 10.
So, the fact that the invulnerable rager that already get more DR than standard barb can't raw get extra DR is clearly a miswriting and should be fixed.
The fact that a rage power is more than double as effective as one other instead is clearly intended, and not in any amount a miswriting.Does anyone here sees a pattern?
To be fair the "double as effective" Rage Power requires three worthless prerequisite Rage Powers and precludes the use of the Beast Totem line. It has it's trade offs.
So which is correct then?
10th level battle Rager with 2 rage powers toward "increased DR".
1) he has DR 7, DR 14 against non-lethal.
2) he has DR 7, DR 10 against non-lethal (only the invulnerability DR is doubled.)
Same with adding any other DR modifying abilities. Do they all stack and then double? or is only invulnerability DR doubled.
The power reads:
Invulnerability (Ex)
At 2nd level, the invulnerable rager gains DR/— equal to half her barbarian level. This damage reduction is doubled against nonlethal damage.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and damage reduction.
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At level 19, and For some reason I think it doe snot stack with stalwart like the DR from invulnerable rager.Armor Master gets a permanent DR 15/-You can get higher DR from fighter archetypes than you can from an Invulnerable Rager.how?
It does not stack but, unlike stalwart, is always effective.
The Invulnerable rager has DR 10/-
This Increases to DR 15/- if your sacrificing 5 points of dodge AC. Usually, that means a 4 feat chain including combat expertise. It will not be in effect before the invulnerable rager has a chance to attack.
Improved stalwart can raise that total, but most barbarians have to multiclass to afford it.
At lower levels, the armor master will have less DR, but so will the invulnerable rager.
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And, as has been pointed out, in answer to the OP, "Increased DR" as a rage power, clearly works with the Invulnerable Rager's DR, since the original source is quoted about as showing they are intended to go together.
And that was recently FAQ'ed too so Increased DR doesn't work with Invulnerable Rager. The line about the power complementing the archetype is slated to be removed in the next errata.
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And, as has been pointed out, in answer to the OP, "Increased DR" as a rage power, clearly works with the Invulnerable Rager's DR, since the original source is quoted about as showing they are intended to go together.And that was recently FAQ'ed too so Increased DR doesn't work with Invulnerable Rager. The line about the power complementing the archetype is slated to be removed in the next errata.
This is exactly the kind of thing that has me wondering if Paizo is trying to get me to hate Pathfinder...
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This is exactly the kind of thing that has me wondering if Paizo is trying to get me to hate Pathfinder...And, as has been pointed out, in answer to the OP, "Increased DR" as a rage power, clearly works with the Invulnerable Rager's DR, since the original source is quoted about as showing they are intended to go together.And that was recently FAQ'ed too so Increased DR doesn't work with Invulnerable Rager. The line about the power complementing the archetype is slated to be removed in the next errata.
I agree... They seem to be swinging that nerf bat really widely lately... Which, is a big reason I don't play Pathfinder Society as much anymore, since to some extent it's problem players in PFS that abuse the RAW and so Paizo makes these screwed up schoolyard choices to punish everyone by taking away the toys entirely because one kid refused to play nice.
I agree... They seem to be swinging that nerf bat really widely lately... Which, is a big reason I don't play Pathfinder Society as much anymore, since to some extent it's problem players in PFS that abuse the RAW and so Paizo makes these screwed up schoolyard choices to punish everyone by taking away the toys entirely because one kid refused to play nice.This is exactly the kind of thing that has me wondering if Paizo is trying to get me to hate Pathfinder...And, as has been pointed out, in answer to the OP, "Increased DR" as a rage power, clearly works with the Invulnerable Rager's DR, since the original source is quoted about as showing they are intended to go together.And that was recently FAQ'ed too so Increased DR doesn't work with Invulnerable Rager. The line about the power complementing the archetype is slated to be removed in the next errata.
Its not just the nerf bat, its the ever-expanding list of 'options' that they are in such a rush to inundate us with that there's no way they can hope to maintain the integrity of the game itself. From poor wording to inadequate playtesting it ultimately leads to an endless cycle of errata and 'FAQ' clarifications which almost universally increase the confusion and reduce the enjoyment of the consumer... how about we look at the 30+ classes, dozens of prestige classes and hundreds upon hundreds of archetypes we already have and figure out a way to actually make them work together than rushing breakneck towards yet another expansion that will ultimately be riddled with holes and inaccuracies?
Options are great, I know everybody wants options... but a broken system collapsing under the weight of itself with no end in sight isn't good for anyone. Give me 'plenty' of options and a system that works over 'endless' options and a system that never seems stop...
Here's the thing that really gets me though - the nerfing and errata OUTSIDE of PFS. If the sacred altar of balance is their goal, they already have a platform where they can do that to their heart's content in the PFS subset of rules... they don't need to go into home games and change them as well for 'balance''s sake. Ive heard the argument that home games are free to ignore these changes because they know what's best for their tables but guess what? If that were true then home games wouldn't need these changes at all because they know what's best for their tables. By repeatedly releasing new sets of rules you create situations where everyone sitting at the table has a different rulebook and GM's who are left to parse through all of these poorly considered yet never-ending alterations to their game in order to figure out what's legal and what isn't, what should be legal and what shouldn't... its getting beyond tiresome and burning me out with a quickness.
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Here's the thing that really gets me though - the nerfing and errata OUTSIDE of PFS. If the sacred altar of balance is their goal, they already have a platform where they can do that to their heart's content in the PFS subset of rules... they don't need to go into home games and change them as well for 'balance''s sake. Ive heard the argument that home games are free to ignore these changes because they know what's best for their tables but guess what? If that were true then home games wouldn't need these changes at all because they know what's best for their tables. By repeatedly releasing new sets of rules you create situations where everyone sitting at the table has a different rulebook and GM's who are left to parse through all of these poorly considered yet never-ending alterations to their game in order to figure out what's legal and what isn't, what should be legal and what shouldn't... its getting beyond tiresome and burning me out with a quickness.
That's the thing though... the game really doesn't exist outside of PFS for them... I mean, think about it. Besides their own internal games, where do they really get feedback about what works and what doesn't? From players at conventions and such... where they are playing under PFS rules... so really it all ties back to PFS, and it's why like I said I more and more every day start to just lose all interest in PFS.
Oh, and don't get me started on the NERF-BEAT-NERF-BASH-NERF they did to the Scarred Witch Doctor that had the hilarious effect of making a properly made half-orc Scarred Witch Doctor more powerful than any other witch archetype... but that's okay since a half-orc can't take an orc racial archetype in PFS. I'm just waiting for THAT nerf bat to fall on the outside game, since that's one of the few times I know of where PFS specifically made a decision counter to an official FAQ (but then I'll still ignore it as I ignore the changes to the Scarred Witch Doctor and the ruling that when a feat adds spells to your spells known you still can't cast them unless they are on your spell list... A great example of how THAT screws up is take a look at the Dreamed Secrets feat. What player in their right mind would suffer Wis damage for the ability to cast a spell they were already able to cast? MAYBE an Oracle might be able to get some use out of the feat especially since they don't need Wis anyway, but seriously... there are better ways to get more oracle spells that don't require Wis damage every time you cast them. BUT as that feat is banned in PFS, they don't care.)