Dying / wounded status and character knowledge

[Midnight Anarch]

Should the dying condition for PCs or NPCs be secret until others make a Recall Knowledge check or use some form of magic that informs them? Or is it expected that a character's dying condition is obvious enough to others, even if not the exact numeric state? Should recovery rolls be made semi-secret (between the GM and PC in question)?

How about for the wounded condition? Can PCs look at another character and simply recognize that someone has the wounded condition, even if they don't know whether it's wounded 1 or 2 or whatever?

[thenobledrake]

This is an "only your table can answer this satisfactorily for you" question.

Because while I will say that yes, this detail of the game should absolutely be transparent among the players so that no one ends up in a situation where their character died because another player could have helped but didn't realize how dire the need for help was - someone else will call me a "pushover GM" for it or insist on trying to soft-gate information behind a check of some kind (and then subsequently probably not ever realize the impact that has on how their players behave when a character is "dying? dead? Who knows which... but I'm not risking healing or wasting actions on a corpse, so, let's say dead.")

[The ShadowShackleton]

“A man is lying on the street
Some punk's chopped off his head
And I'm the only one who stops to see if he's dead
Turns out he's dead”

Think About It- Flight of the Conchords

Don’t know the answer but it made me think of this.

I would assume it is GM call.

[TomParker]

It does seem to be a GM's call. Personally, dying doesn't seem fun, having to sit silently while allies who don't know you're about to die ignore you doesn't seem fun. Heroically trying to save your dying comrade seems fun.

In the games I've run so far, this is not information I keep secret. And in PF1, I didn't mind if characters said, um, hey, I'm only 1 point away from negative CON.

[The ShadowShackleton]

I definitely have characters track it in the open. Given how the condition cards work, I think it is relatively likely that was the intent.

[Midnight Anarch]

Using Recall Knowledge for this has important (and some would say interesting) tactical implications, though it's more gritty and dangerous all around if for no other reason than Recall Knowledge eating an action. (An action also made in secret that could give the wrong estimate!)

I'm curious if those of you who make it open regarding PCs also do the same thing for PC knowledge of NPC states?

Will it be open information in Society games? Do we know?

[TomParker]

I would share it for allied NPCs, yes. Most opponents just die at zero hit points. If an enemy NPC is important enough not to have them die at zero, I wouldn't share the dying condition status. And I might not even track it, since there was probably a plot reason that he's not dead.

[Xenocrat]

I'd make it a perception or medicine check rather than recall knowledge, unless you think your character is recalling a book of prophecy that discussed this future injury of the PC.

From a realism perspective I'd prefer not to tell PCs. In any case, they know the rules, and know how many rounds someone generally has, taking into account crits, follow on attacks, and AOEs that could make things worse than usual. They really should default to taking immediate action to help and not letting them know is a good way to drive that.

[The ShadowShackleton]

I wouldn’t find much fun in the “gotcha” moment of letting a player die because the party thought they had an extra round to get to him.

To me this falls under intent rather than rules.

The fun games are the ones where you all think you are going to die but then (by effort, strategy or luck) you don’t.

[Midnight Anarch]

The ShadowShackleton wrote:

I wouldn’t find much fun in the “gotcha” moment of letting a player die because the party thought they had an extra round to get to him.

Barring a Wounded X or a critical hit that everyone would know about already, players in this new system have at least 1 round (barring persistent damage or a truly vicious enemy!) to act before someone's dead, even if the first recovery roll is a critical failure.

That said, it does feel like dying might be a little too fast of a process. I'm tempted to house rule that Dying 5 is the default "death value", especially if dying states aren't explicit. That should give a little more breathing time, literally.

Xenocrat wrote:

I'd make it a perception or medicine check rather than recall knowledge, unless you think your character is recalling a book of prophecy that discussed this future injury of the PC.

No, I imagine it would be a Medicine (Recall Knowledge) check to remember medical training or experience to estimate how severe a wound appears and so on. It can be done untrained so anyone can make a guess. No prophecy required!