I am planning on playing a Shifter-like Fighter Druid for my first character. I think I understand how Wild Shape works but I have a question about part of my build (please see below). I am looking for your thoughts on whether this will be a good combination and what other synergies between the Fighter Class and Wild Shape there may be. Thank you in advance for your help.
Basic Build:
Fighter with Druid Dedication at level 2 and Basic Wilding [Wild Shape] at level 4
Synergies:
Legendary +2 Attack Bonus - Fighters can have up to Legendary Proficiency in Unarmed Attacks and when a character uses there own Attack Bonus in Wild Shape they get a +2 Status bonus on Attack Rolls (Wild Shape, CRB pg. 401).
Reach and Attacks of Opportunity - Wild Shape includes Animal Forms at level 2, Large Animal Forms (10-foot Reach) at level 4, and Huge Animal Forms (15-foot Reach) at level 5. I Plan on taking Combat Reflexes and Distracting Stance at later levels to expand AoO opportunities (pun intended).
For late game action, at level 16 I plan to take Advanced Wilding [Ferocious Shape] to gain access to Gargantuan (20-foot Reach) Dinosaur Forms.
Multiple Attacks - My experience in PF1 is that Reach and good battlefield position can often equate to more rounds using the Full Attack Action. In PF2, I am hoping this means I won't be spending as many rounds using the Move action. Some of the Animal Form attacks include the Agile trait. To minimize the Multiple Attack Penalty, I plan on taking the Exacting Strike and Agile Grace feats when they can be fit into the build.
Question:
Weapon Specialization and Wild Shape - When in a battle form, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties (Polymorph, CRB, pg. 301). Does this mean that Wild Shape forms cannot benefit from the (Untyped?) damage bonus provided by Weapon Specialization?
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That's a good question - I think I'd lean towards saying no. RAW an untyped bonus isn't defined anywhere and thus weapon specialization can't be considered a "bonus" at all, it just is. RAI weapon specialization is intended to keep the damage numbers of characters competitive with enemy health - it's a replacement for half of the striking weapon bonuses we used to get in the playtest.
I just realized that Druids also get Weapon Specialization for Unarmed Attacks, so the same question can be applied to their own class ability.
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure weapon specialization doesn't apply. It's not a circumstance bonus, status bonus, or penalty. Also, as Arachnofiend points out, weapons specialization is to keep damage at the level things are balanced around now that striking runes aren't as powerful, but the various battle forms are already balanced. Weapon specialization would probably push the damage above what's expected for their level.
Thank you both for your replies.
The last syngery in the build I will point out is:
Greater Weapon Specialization and Wild Morph - So the build will not be totally dependent on Animal Forms that may not fit into tight spaces, I will take Order Spell [Wild Morph] as early as I can. With Greater Weapon Specialization and Handwraps of Mighty Blows, this combination will eventually provide reasonable damage when not using Wild Shape.
Later in the build, Wild Morph could also provide additional advantages (such as Reach and Fly Speed), based on what other Wild Shape feats I take.
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Not sure if you have seen this but it helps to support the idea that additional damage / Weapon Specialisation and Wild Shape add together.
Always good to get an actual answer
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42s8m?Rage-bonus-damage-type#2
Mark Seifter Designer
Weapon Specialization is not a damage bonus, it's an "additional damage", like Rage and Sneak Attack. So, it should add up to Wild Shape, even if I agree, in Weapon Specialization's case, it's a bit weird (but in Sneak Attack and Rage cases, it's quite logical).
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I keep re-reading the text
"the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties"
and think that Marks quote makes it Totally and Absolutely Clear that Weapon specialization and rage are NOT added.
Additional damage is NOT a circumstance bonus, status bonus nor a penalty and so is NOT added.
Am I missing something?
I really really wish this was made clear. It's one of those things that can completely change how effective a character is. Right now I'm leaning towards additional damage is not a status or circumstance bonus, and so does not apply. The only real reason for that is looking at damage bonuses that form spells get naturally is around the same as max strength plus weapon specialization. But I would love an actual clarification as it does limit what you can do in a form, such as sneak attack, rage, etc.
I keep re-reading the text
"the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties"and think that Marks quote makes it Totally and Absolutely Clear that Weapon specialization and rage are NOT added.
Additional damage is NOT a circumstance bonus, status bonus nor a penalty and so is NOT added.
Am I missing something?
Yes. It's additional damage, not a damage bonus. Check the other threads it clearly does apply.
Why because your quote is irrelevant . It's not modifying any of those statistics, nothing in the form spell is changed, but it still counts. It is additional damage that is added as an extra on top of everything.
The key is where Marks says "it isn't a bonus", meaning it is does not modify the damage bonus in the form spell, therefore it is not modifying the form spell statistics. But like sneak attack it still applies on top.
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I keep re-reading the text
"the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties"and think that Marks quote makes it Totally and Absolutely Clear that Weapon specialization and rage are NOT added.
Additional damage is NOT a circumstance bonus, status bonus nor a penalty and so is NOT added.
Am I missing something?
Yes. It's additional damage, not a damage bonus. Check the other threads it clearly does apply.
Why because your quote is irrelevant . It's not modifying any of those statistics, nothing in the form spell is changed, but it still counts. It is additional damage that is added as an extra on top of everything.
The key is where Marks says "it isn't a bonus", meaning it is does not modify the damage bonus in the form spell, therefore it is not modifying the form spell statistics. But like sneak attack it still applies on top.
Thank you for replying. I now see your argument.
I'm not remotely sure that you're right, mind. I think that at the very least it needs clarification. Hopefully before my PFS wild shaping monk gets access to the interesting feats :-)
Yes. It's additional damage, not a damage bonus. Check the other threads it clearly does apply.
Why because your quote is irrelevant . It's not modifying any of those statistics, nothing in the form spell is changed, but it still counts. It is additional damage that is added as an extra on top of everything.
The key is where Marks says "it isn't a bonus", meaning it is does not modify the damage bonus in the form spell, therefore it is not modifying the form spell statistics. But like sneak attack it still applies on top.
Thank you for replying. I now see your argument.I'm not remotely sure that you're right, mind. I think that at the very least it needs clarification. Hopefully before my PFS wild shaping monk gets access to the interesting feats :-)
Fair enough. Its a bit of a fine point.
It may well be true that Mark and Paizo are thinking through the implications of a number of things, including this. There could well be an update. A definition of damage bonus would be good. I've got 7 different things including this listed on my druid guide regards polymorph and form spells that I'd like clarified. Polymorph has always been a problem child. This version is better than most. It's just there are clear edge cases like this to be addressed. Even if just to say that this is the intended reading of this rule.
Personally I don't think that there is an over the top balance problem - its definitely a strong option - but the loss of two actions up front to get into the form is a significant cost when many encounters are over in 3-5 turns.
Its also easy to design monsters you don't want to hit with your fists. I encountered some skeletal creatures in a PF1 game last Wednesday that had a FireShield effect. Ouch.
Reach and Attacks of Opportunity - Wild Shape includes Animal Forms at level 2, Large Animal Forms (10-foot Reach) at level 4, and Huge Animal Forms (15-foot Reach) at level 5. I Plan on taking Combat Reflexes and Distracting Stance at later levels to expand AoO opportunities (pun intended).
I do not think you, as a multiclass Druid, would get those abilities at those levels as you only get basic spell casting without an additional feat.
CRB p219
"Basic Spellcasting Feat: Available at 4th level, these feats
grant a 1st-level spell slot. At 6th level, they grant you a
2nd‑level spell slot. At 8th level, they grant you a 3rdlevel
spell slot. Archetypes refer to these benefits as the
“basic spellcasting benefits.”
CRB p401
Since the Wild shape focus spell gains the animal form via:
"Heightened (2nd) You can also wild shape into the forms listed
in animal form.
You would never get access to level 4 spells and thus cannot highten to gain all of those benefits of the large form and up.
I think that is the way it would work but maybe I am missing something.
Reach and Attacks of Opportunity - Wild Shape includes Animal Forms at level 2, Large Animal Forms (10-foot Reach) at level 4, and Huge Animal Forms (15-foot Reach) at level 5. I Plan on taking Combat Reflexes and Distracting Stance at later levels to expand AoO opportunities (pun intended).I do not think you, as a multiclass Druid, would get those abilities at those levels as you only get basic spell casting without an additional feat.
CRB p219
"Basic Spellcasting Feat: Available at 4th level, these feats
grant a 1st-level spell slot. At 6th level, they grant you a
2nd‑level spell slot. At 8th level, they grant you a 3rdlevel
spell slot. Archetypes refer to these benefits as the
“basic spellcasting benefits.”CRB p401
Since the Wild shape focus spell gains the animal form via:
"Heightened (2nd) You can also wild shape into the forms listed
in animal form.You would never get access to level 4 spells and thus cannot highten to gain all of those benefits of the large form and up.
I think that is the way it would work but maybe I am missing something.
Yes you take the first level feat Wild Shape , or the second level Order Explorer. Via the 4th level Basic Wilding multiclass feat. You are not getting it via spell casting slots but as a focus spell via feats.
The higher feats arrive much later as its only via Advanced Wilding so you only qualify at half level. But the level of the focus spell is not halved. So you will get the more advanced animal forms as focus spells heighten. The price for the others is steep: Dino form is level 16, Dragon form is level 20The best forms that require > level 10 Druid feats can only be got as a focus spell by a druid. Taking a lot of Druid spellcasting feats will get you some access to those spells in a slightly more level friendly fashion - but then its not a focus spell so it is once per day, not once per ten minute refocus.
Yes you take the first level feat Wild Shape , or the second level Order Explorer. Via the 4th level Basic Wilding multiclass feat. You are not getting it via spell casting slots but as a focus spell via feats.
Reach and Attacks of Opportunity - Wild Shape includes Animal Forms at level 2, Large Animal Forms (10-foot Reach) at level 4, and Huge Animal Forms (15-foot Reach) at level 5. I Plan on taking Combat Reflexes and Distracting Stance at later levels to expand AoO opportunities (pun intended).I do not think you, as a multiclass Druid, would get those abilities at those levels as you only get basic spell casting without an additional feat.
CRB p219
"Basic Spellcasting Feat: Available at 4th level, these feats
grant a 1st-level spell slot. At 6th level, they grant you a
2nd‑level spell slot. At 8th level, they grant you a 3rdlevel
spell slot. Archetypes refer to these benefits as the
“basic spellcasting benefits.”CRB p401
Since the Wild shape focus spell gains the animal form via:
"Heightened (2nd) You can also wild shape into the forms listed
in animal form.You would never get access to level 4 spells and thus cannot highten to gain all of those benefits of the large form and up.
I think that is the way it would work but maybe I am missing something.
Wild shape: "Heightened (2nd) You can also wild shape into the forms listed in animal form."
To gain those forms you have to have the spell slot level access or you could instantly transform into the most powerful version. Nothing about that says you get the heightened versions of the form without the requirements as I read it.
As a side not maybe this is what I am missing but here is what it says for Focus spells:
CRB p300
"Focus spells are automatically heightened to half your
level rounded up, just like cantrips are."
This I knew and the Wild shape spell only has a "Heightened (2nd) You can also wild shape into the forms listed in animal form."
It still only says the forms. So at best you maybe could say its spell level is now the Focus spell level which is half you level which still would not match his numbers he listed. He would not get large form till level 8 in this case not at 4.
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As a side not maybe this is what I am missing but here is what it says for Focus spells:
CRB p300
"Focus spells are automatically heightened to half your
level rounded up, just like cantrips are."This I knew and the Wild shape spell only has a "Heightened (2nd) You can also wild shape into the forms listed in animal form."
It still only says the forms. So at best you maybe could say its spell level is now the Focus spell level which is half you level which still would not match his numbers he listed. He would not get large form till level 8 in this case not at 4.
Two different uses of the word level.
Blame Gary Gygax. You are right. The orginal posted was not as clear as he could have been. I've seen it so much, I mentally autocorrect and barely notice.