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I'm still making my way through reading the PF2 core rulebook and Bestiary. Between readings, I'm building characters in Hero Lab Online to get a better feel for how characters are built and grow, and the potential impact of game mechanics in realizing character concepts. So far, it's been great and characters seem to be much better realized in PF2 than in PF1. I'm hoping to get to kick the tires in actual play this weekend. Thus far, PF2 is shaping up to be a home run!
One thing that is bugging me, however, is the lack of NPC-building rules. I came around to the NPCs-by-different rules camp after seeing Starfinder's implementation in action. Starfinder placed them in the first Alien Archive. The lack of NPC creation rules in neither the core rulebook nor the bestiary seems like a significant miss in an otherwise excellent launch.
Given PF2's rebuild-from-the-ground-up design approach, although I can use PC rules for creating NPCs, I feel like PF1 creation assumptions don't hold and I've got tons of questions.
What's a "representative" level spread for a village, town, or city?
Are 0-level NPCs the lions share? If so, what does that even look like?
Will NPCs be built differently but still be considered as belonging to a PC class ala Starfinder?
Do crafting level/feat requirements apply to NPCs or just PCs?
Etc.
I feel like I'm swinging blindly trying to convert existing NPCs over to something I can use in PF2.
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Are 0-level NPCs the lions share? If so, what does that even look like?Most likely. Like the other 0 level Humanoids in the Bestiary.
Will NPCs be built differently but still be considered as belonging to a PC class ala Starfinder?Hellknight Hill confirms that, yes.
Do crafting level/feat requirements apply to NPCs or just PCs?
Probably not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have a chart for crafters or some such.
If I want a NPC at 0 I get rid of the ancestry HP boost atm and make sure their max stat is 16.
But currently I am just creating a bunch of npcs with the player creation rules and throwing it into a stat block while omitting class features I cannot be bothered listing or don't think matter.
It works surprisingly well so far.
I am working on some ideas for 0-level characters and "Commoner" class characters that I plan to post in the Homebrew forum in a few days -- but these are aimed more at starting PCs with sub-1st level abilities than for statting out ordinary people that you might randomly encounter in a civilized humanoid settlement.
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Will NPCs be built differently but still be considered as belonging to a PC class ala Starfinder?Hellknight Hill confirms that, yes.
Actually, it doesn't, sadly. I had a chance to look at Hellknight Hill and NPCs are listed as follows: AL ancestry occupation. That is NG human blacksmith. No reference to level or class is given.
Gah! PF2 is great but this is seriously frustrating. I have no idea how to go about converting NPCs in my campaigns without doing the equivalent of throwing darts blindfolded. Are NPCs all pathetic ala 2e D&D? Are NPCs built-using PC rules vastly overpowered?
I feel like any conversion I'm attempting now is a waste of time and I'll have to redo it all post-Gamemastery Guide, anyway. I still can't believe NPC creation didn't make it into at least the Bestiary.
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I'm of the opinion that combat NPCs can just be built with PC rules. Have a few stat arrays and skill/feat packages ready to avoid going through early chargen, and don't give them high stats or any combat feats if they're meant to be weaker than level 1 PCs.
Noncombatant NPCs is what I most look forward to. There should be ways to give the dwarven blacksmith at least expert in smithing skills, the 700 year old elf scholar master in a bunch of lores, or the village priest some low level healing spells -- without making any of these people capable of fighting at all. PF1e's NPC classes were terrible at portraying normal people who happen to be good at things that don't require fighting.
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Actually, it doesn't, sadly. I had a chance to look at Hellknight Hill and NPCs are listed as follows: AL ancestry occupation. That is NG human blacksmith. No reference to level or class is given.Will NPCs be built differently but still be considered as belonging to a PC class ala Starfinder?Hellknight Hill confirms that, yes.
Because you don’t need those for the town blacksmith.
Look at the actual NPCs with statblocks. They have classes and levels listed.
Actually, it doesn't, sadly. I had a chance to look at Hellknight Hill and NPCs are listed as follows: AL ancestry occupation. That is NG human blacksmith. No reference to level or class is given.Will NPCs be built differently but still be considered as belonging to a PC class ala Starfinder?Hellknight Hill confirms that, yes.
I believe Mark Seifter confirmed that, unlike in Starfinder, in PF2 you can just build NPCs using the PC rules.
So good news! You already have the tools to build NPCs!
(We don’t have NPC classes, though, so if you’re looking for rough guidance for how to treat such NPCs, you’ll have to wait for the GMG. But any NPCs you build with the PC rules will be good to go. You won’t ever have to go back and revise them.)
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Honestly while I really am liking the changes to PF2, I'm not a fan that the ability to design monsters/NPCs isn't in the bestiary. It's a real shame to wait until the GMG drops before being able to write up/convert my own monsters. In the meantime, we can kind of work backwards with what we have in the bestiary and make our own critters.
Honestly while I really am liking the changes to PF2, I'm not a fan that the ability to design monsters/NPCs isn't in the bestiary. It's a real shame to wait until the GMG drops before being able to write up/convert my own monsters. In the meantime, we can kind of work backwards with what we have in the bestiary and make our own critters.
At least we got a Bestiary. Starfinder launched before the Alien Archive, so homebrew games were next to impossible to run at first.
Noncombatant NPCs is what I most look forward to. There should be ways to give the dwarven blacksmith at least expert in smithing skills, the 700 year old elf scholar master in a bunch of lores, or the village priest some low level healing spells -- without making any of these people capable of fighting at all. PF1e's NPC classes were terrible at portraying normal people who happen to be good at things that don't require fighting.
I'm almost certain the answer will be that NPCs have what they need to be the character they are, regardless of whether a PC could be built to be the exact same.
dwarven blacksmith -> set his Crafting skill bonus as high as it needs to be, and let him count as any profiency that fits the character. Let him have formulas for everything you want him to make.
Don't expect a replacement of the NPC classes that is more robust, expect most NPCs to have 3-4 line stat block with some useful notes.
Ive been converting 4e Npc statblocks, all ive changed are the numbers to be comparable with other monsters of its level. Ive found the reactions and powers from 4e slot into pf2e almost seamlessly.
I've been looking at that since one of the best things about 4e was the monster design, in my opinion. With that in mind I have a couple of questions..
(1) Are you also also including all of the force and voluntary moves associated with many of the 4e creatures?
(2) I'm looking to implement a 4e style Minion rule for PF2 any thoughts?
(3) I loved the bloodied condition in 4e, and the fact that monsters usually did something cool when bloodied. Are you carrying that across as well?
I assume your aligning the to hit and damage values with appropriate level monsters in the PF2 bestiary. Any other changes your making in the conversion?
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Noncombatant NPCs is what I most look forward to. There should be ways to give the dwarven blacksmith at least expert in smithing skills, the 700 year old elf scholar master in a bunch of lores, or the village priest some low level healing spells -- without making any of these people capable of fighting at all. PF1e's NPC classes were terrible at portraying normal people who happen to be good at things that don't require fighting.I'm almost certain the answer will be that NPCs have what they need to be the character they are, regardless of whether a PC could be built to be the exact same.
dwarven blacksmith -> set his Crafting skill bonus as high as it needs to be, and let him count as any profiency that fits the character. Let him have formulas for everything you want him to make.
Don't expect a replacement of the NPC classes that is more robust, expect most NPCs to have 3-4 line stat block with some useful notes.
A guideline is all I really need, like what kind of skill feats or spells are appropriate for NPCs and how to calculate their creature level (eg have Legendary in Culinary Lore on a world famous chef shouldn't increase their challenge one bit; but every combat feat should).
I already do this for 1e which isn't rules legal. I give the ancient elf wizard in his tower something like 10 HP but also 6th level spells to represent how powerful he is but also justify why he's paying adventurers to get his components rather than doing it himself. I just wish that's the default for 2e NPCs.
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Honestly while I really am liking the changes to PF2, I'm not a fan that the ability to design monsters/NPCs isn't in the bestiary. It's a real shame to wait until the GMG drops before being able to write up/convert my own monsters. In the meantime, we can kind of work backwards with what we have in the bestiary and make our own critters.
Before we pulled the trigger on this, we polled you guys in the survey, and we went with the overwhelming fan choice to put the creation rules in the GMG in order to fit more monsters in the Bestiary. If the rules are in the GMG, it also has the advantage of not requiring reprinting those rules in every Bestiary. That said, Jason has said on the record that he wants us to be able to expedite those rules to you as a sneak preview of the book as soon as they are through a few more steps of the process!
Before we pulled the trigger on this, we polled you guys in the survey, and we went with the overwhelming fan choice to put the creation rules in the GMG in order to fit more monsters in the Bestiary. If the rules are in the GMG, it also has the advantage of not requiring reprinting those rules in every Bestiary. That said, Jason has said on the record that he wants us to be able to expedite those rules to you as a sneak preview of the book as soon as they are through a few more steps of the process!
It was the right decision and gives time for a mini playtest / ironing out of language bugs.
As far as rules go they are some important ones :)
Before we pulled the trigger on this, we polled you guys in the survey, and we went with the overwhelming fan choice to put the creation rules in the GMG in order to fit more monsters in the Bestiary. If the rules are in the GMG, it also has the advantage of not requiring reprinting those rules in every Bestiary. That said, Jason has said on the record that he wants us to be able to expedite those rules to you as a sneak preview of the book as soon as they are through a few more steps of the process!
Great to hear! Looking forward to seeing it.
Latching onto this, how do people scale up enemies?
I believe catfolk were really low level in bestiary, but they could be fun at all levels.
Latching onto this, how do people scale up enemies?
I believe catfolk were really low level in bestiary, but they could be fun at all levels.
raise stats every 5 levels, raise proficiency at the levels you would expect, raise health.
Scaling is super easy for the most part, even damage can be guessed at with when runes would be accessible usually.
Since I had a game last night (write-up here) I had to go ahead and wing it for some zero, 1st, 2nd and 3rd-level NPCs.
Those with class levels, I created exactly like a PC.
For zero-level NPCs, I gave them ancestry and background, then stopped. Since they would've had zero weapon and armor training, I decided to make them trained in unarmored defense and simple weapons only.
Novice Pirate
Male human Sailor 0 Perception +0
Languages: Common
Skills: Athletics +4, Acrobatics, Thievery +3, Society, Sailing lore +2,
Str +2, Dex +1, Con +1, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0
Items: Dagger, Javelin, Bandanna, belt pouch
AC 13; Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +0
HP 9 Speed 25’
Melee: Dagger +4, 1d4+2ps, agile, finesse, thrown 10’
Ranged: Javelin +3, 1d6+2p, thrown 30’
Parallel to this, I also stripped all the NPC stat blocks out of the four PF2 adventures published to date, cut & pasting them to a word doc. I didn't end up using these sheets last night, but several of them are generic enough to work for combat stats of various townsfolk.
This said, many noncombattant NPCs don't really need stat blocks as such.
Finally, it appears that very soon we will get not only NPC creation rules, but a nice selection of NPCs, direct from Paizo.
Latching onto this, how do people scale up enemies?
I believe catfolk were really low level in bestiary, but they could be fun at all levels.raise stats every 5 levels, raise proficiency at the levels you would expect, raise health.
Scaling is super easy for the most part, even damage can be guessed at with when runes would be accessible usually.
That's handy. I'll take a peek and maybe see if I can come up with a cheat sheet for personal use.
Actually, it doesn't, sadly. I had a chance to look at Hellknight Hill and NPCs are listed as follows: AL ancestry occupation. That is NG human blacksmith. No reference to level or class is given.Will NPCs be built differently but still be considered as belonging to a PC class ala Starfinder?Hellknight Hill confirms that, yes.I believe Mark Seifter confirmed that, unlike in Starfinder, in PF2 you can just build NPCs using the PC rules.
So good news! You already have the tools to build NPCs!
(We don’t have NPC classes, though, so if you’re looking for rough guidance for how to treat such NPCs, you’ll have to wait for the GMG. But any NPCs you build with the PC rules will be good to go. You won’t ever have to go back and revise them.)
Any link to such post by Mark Seifter saying that NPC's can be created with PC rules, or that they are the base for humanoid high level NPC's?
I would really like if somehow we got a way to give class levels to monsters. I always liked how it made the world feels real. That illithid there? Might have wizard or fighter levels, like any one of the party members.
I love DM'ing in settings akin to Planescape / Multiverse / Planatar Themed things, and more often then not you could find dragons, angels or anything with high class levels.
I would really like if somehow we got a way to give class levels to monsters. I always liked how it made the world feels real. That illithid there? Might have wizard or fighter levels, like any one of the party members.
I put together some statblocks for a conversion the other day, and found it very easy to make monster npcs by grabbing a couple thematic abilities from the monster and doing a quick-and-dirty PC build
Since you don't need all the details you just skip stuff that's not thematically relevant or unlikely to come up. E.g., I only grabbed a couple class feats rather than picking out each one and skipped the skill feats and didn't bother with equipment but just grabbed appropriate numbers for the level.
It was all quick and painless and should do the job perfectly well for having monsters with class levels