pauljathome |
I'm having difficulty building a cloistered cleric that seems viable.
My first problem is how MAD they are. I want to max out Wis, have decent Cha and can't afford to skimp on Dex or Con if I'm going to survive. Lore cleric is right out :-).
But they'll pretty much have the worst AC in the game (no mage armor, need to have a decent Cha so more pressure on stats in general). And in PF2 hanging out in back isn't all that viable in general.
And then what do they actually do? Oh, they're a wonderful healer and more than justify their existence in the group by that. But I want to be able to make SOME decent contribution to combat when not healing. Their cantrips are generally poor damage dealers (they have great riders to invoke some weaknesses which is sometimes great)
I think my current plan is to either MC into another class for mage armor/damaging cantrips or spend feats on armor prof. Maybe rely on scrolls of mage armor but that is quite expensive.
Edit: there is one that is fun and viable. Fey touched gnome. Dumping STR helps, they get a primal cantrip and done fun roleplay. Not sure that I like that this is the only viable L1 cloistered cleric I've been able to come up with. I very much like this character though. I now have my -2 :-)
Garretmander |
Since you probably aren't wading into battle, skimp on CON. Then focus on either dex or charisma. CHA has those extra heals, and you can demoralize the enemy better so you can land your spells a bit easier. DEX for an attempt to keep your AC from getting you crit all the time.
Human first level ancestry feat lets you grab a cantrip from any list.
Blave |
I assume you want to play cloistered specifically to be a spellcaster? Just asking because a cleric of Irori multiclassed to monk is pretty good.
For the pure caster, you most likely want to multiclass. Warpriest have plenty nice feats to choose from but most caster feats of the cleric deal only with heal/harm, which is a shame. One if the better ones is probably cast down, a near guaranteed knockdown effect.
As for the choice of multiclassing, if you have high charisma anyway, you might as well pick up bard and get some inspirations going. Do note that inspire courage becomes mostly useless once you have eternal blessing, though.
A divine sorcerer is probably much better at being a pure divine caster than a cleric, unfortunately.
Red Griffyn |
A few suggestions:
1. The human ancestry feat (Adapted Cantrip) lets you cast another classes cantrip as your own (divine wis based electric arc/ray of frost/produce flame/etc.). The 5th level human ancestry feat (Adaptive Adept) lets you grab another Cantrip.
2. Multi-class into druid at L2. This nets you 2 more cantrips which means you have two more damage ones. It still uses wisdom, and until L7 (After you get your second cantrip from the human ancestry feat at L5) it will be at the trained proficiency like your other cantrips. Then at L7 prepare different druid cantrips (more utility ones) and rely on the two damaging ones from your ancestry feats. You can then keep going with the spellcasting, prepping damaging ones while your DCs are the same as your cleric class or using it for buffs/taking damaging spells from your deities list (e.g., Sarenrae gives burning hands, fireball, etc.).
3. Take a voluntary flaw in STR and bump dex. That means you can start out at as a human:
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 16
Then bump WIS/CHA/DEX/CON until maxed out and move on to STR/INT late game.
4. My understanding is that CON isn't a big deal in this edition. I haven't seen this confirmed or denied in play.
5. Use your first general feat to get light armor proficiency (via the human heritage this can be at L1). You'll be trained in it until L13, at which point you'll be at 18 DEX and expert in unarmored (use the explorer's clothing and move your runes over to it.
Quandary |
I'm not sure if specifying Fey-Touched Gnome has to do with fulfilling your stated mechanical goals, or is unrelated?
If it is just about the stat array, Halflings have similar bonuses to stats you identified and no penalties to them:
(DEX and WIS , Free to CHA, Penalty to STR)
Although using the Flaw system, even Human can apply Racial bonus to DEX, CON, WIS, and CHA, with Flaw to STR and INT
(although you seem like you like INT)
But I wouldn't necessarily worry as much about CHA, I mean you can boost it with 4x Level Boosts,
so just leaving it a 10 or 12 at 1st level could let you get away with better INT which sounds like you'd really prefer.
If you want to be the UBER HEALER, taking Healing Domain is probably more impactful than +2 CHA.
EDIT: OK I think you like Gnome specifically for the Cantrip thing? Besides the Human options for Cantrip/etc, note that Halfling's Cultural Adaptability grants Adopted Ancestry with 1 free 1st level Ancestry Feat, I'm not sure if Gnome Cantrips work via Adopted (Innate), but since you are Caster, taking Human Cantrip is probably attractive (prereq to 1st level spell of choice).
Although maybe it's noting since you mentioned interest in INT, the options for skills via Halfling Lore, Human Natural Skills (any 2), or Gnome Obsession (1 skill but scaling). Halfings also have Nomadic Heritage granting 2 bonus Languages (and increasing benefit of taking Multilingual Feat) which also fills in for INT.
Quandary |
3. Take a voluntary flaw in STR and bump dex. That means you can start out at as a human...
Voluntary Flaw requires TWO additional flaws for one additional bonus, which would mean also penalizing INT (or negating one of his preferred bonus stats), which he actually expressed desire to boost even if possibly less a priority.
I think either Gnome or Halfling with Cultural Heritage/Adopted Ancestry:Human is his best bet. (I don't think AA:Gnome works for Cantrips given they are "Innate") Both would have ongoing means to boost skills relevant to his interest in Lore. I think he doesn't necessarily need quite as much CHA investment, and a Background boosting INT (and WIS) probably could offer Feat relevant to his Lore interest as well, along with bonus skill and language. Halfling can grab 2 bonus language via Heritage. On Gnome side, they can eventually get Invisibility (and Faery Fire) which can help if worried about defense. If dialing down CHA expectations slightly, Human probably also works great, everything the Halfling Cultural Heritage would get, plus bonus Feat which could go towards that Armor Proficiency somebody suggested (or allow grabbing that AND Additional Lore (scaling), Dubious Knowledge, Multilingual, Quick Identification, Student of the Canon (if you didn't get via Background), to name a few relevant to Cloistered/Lore-y trope).
shroudb |
A few suggestions:
1. The human ancestry feat (Adapted Cantrip) lets you cast another classes cantrip as your own (divine wis based electric arc/ray of frost/produce flame/etc.). The 5th level human ancestry feat (Adaptive Adept) lets you grab another Cantrip.
2. Multi-class into druid at L2. This nets you 2 more cantrips which means you have two more damage ones. It still uses wisdom, and until L7 (After you get your second cantrip from the human ancestry feat at L5) it will be at the trained proficiency like your other cantrips. Then at L7 prepare different druid cantrips (more utility ones) and rely on the two damaging ones from your ancestry feats. You can then keep going with the spellcasting, prepping damaging ones while your DCs are the same as your cleric class or using it for buffs/taking damaging spells from your deities list (e.g., Sarenrae gives burning hands, fireball, etc.).
3. Take a voluntary flaw in STR and bump dex. That means you can start out at as a human:
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 16Then bump WIS/CHA/DEX/CON until maxed out and move on to STR/INT late game.
4. My understanding is that CON isn't a big deal in this edition. I haven't seen this confirmed or denied in play.
5. Use your first general feat to get light armor proficiency (via the human heritage this can be at L1). You'll be trained in it until L13, at which point you'll be at 18 DEX and expert in unarmored (use the explorer's clothing and move your runes over to it.
you need to take 2 flaws to get 1 bump
"You can elect
to take two additional ability
flaws when applying the ability
boosts and ability flaws from
your ancestry. If you do, you can
also apply one additional free
ability boost."
Red Griffyn |
Fair enough. I didn't read it exactly right. So you could get your bonuses as follows:
----L1--L5--L10--L15--L20
STR-8---8---8----10---12
DEX-14--16--18---18---18
CON-12--14--16---18---19
INT-8---8---10---12---14
WIS-18--19--20---21---22
CHA-16--18--18---18---18
or
----L1--L5--L10--L15--L20
STR-10--10--10---12---14
DEX-14--16--18---18---18
CON-12--14--16---18---19
INT-10--10--10---12---14
WIS-18--19--20---21---22
CHA-14--16--18---18---18
Ultimately you probably want to max out WIS to keep your DCs competitive. Then take DEX/CHA to 18 followed by CON. You could get one or both of DEX/CHA to 20 by L20 (if a campaign ever goes that far) by never increasing STR/INT, but it can be nice to pick up additional skills or bulk capacity at higher levels.
Quandary |
Seems worth noting, the Human Cantrip (and later, 1st level spell) adds cantrip/spell to your base class, so it will use prime Casting stat, and the cantrip will also scale with full Level. The Gnome Cantrip (and later, spells) will use CHA as Innate spells and the cantrip will scale with 1/2 level, so if concerned about using Cantrip as attack, it will start out the same but will drop off more later (although Innate spells do benefit from any other Casting Proficiency if better than Trained). If you were so concerned about "maxing" WIS in the first place, that seems kind of relevant (although if ALSO near-maxing CHA, the 1/2 level scaling cantrip might be only important difference)
(of course the difference in cantrips is Gnome Fey-Touched / 1st World Cantrips are ADDITIONAL while Human Adapted Cantrip just swaps out your existing list of Cantrips, but since your worry was not about not having enough cantrips, but not thinking your base cantrip choice was as useful, that could be just fine for your purposes.
Blave |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Gnome Cantrip (and later, spells) will use CHA as Innate spells and the cantrip will scale with 1/2 level
All cantrips scale with 1/2 level. Their difference in effectiveness comes from different casting abilitiy scores since - as you noted correctly - innate spells don't care in which tradition you're proficient.
But the gnome cantrip will be at the same level as any cleric cantrip you'd cast.
Quandary |
True, in my laymans understanding mental map I think I somehow thought it would be 1/2 level * 1/2 level or something, but just like standard cantrip like you say. But overall I think most of Core Ancestries can fulfill this fine, with just Elf and Dwarf having penalty on something he identifies as priority (although his priorities apparently being everything but STR seems like it inevitably will make compromises vs it's self-image).
Edge93 |
Really, Cloistered Cleric is pretty nice. The AC might take a bit to get rolling, but you can get to a good amount eventually, max Dex on Explorer's Clothing and Bracers of Armor is only +5, after all. And a good party should be able to help protect you if you are a tad squishy, but generally you should be tough enough to survive just fine.
Divine list seems pretty nice to me, great restoration and buffs, some good debuffs, even pretty good attack spells in Divine Lance, Searing Light (or Chilling Darkness, depending on alignment), Divine Wrath, Flame Strike, and others.
And the numerous Heal/Harms are nice, especially when augmented with feats.
Also Human is great for them, as others have said the off-list Cantrip is great, but also they have an upgrade at I think 9th that lets you take an off-list level 1 spell too, but with no ability to heighten it. Can you say True Strike?
And a lot of domain powers are nice too, I'm a fan of Fire Ray personally.