Interesting -- I actually suggested to my GM that he consider introducing PF2 style hero points into our PF1 game.
No real impact. Hero Points are a meta game construct that can be adequately handled in a variety of different ways. Historically, in my games player death after a certain level involves a table discussion about how to proceed. Some people choose to accept the death and others want negotiate a way to continue with that character. A group side quest for resurrection, divine intervention at a future cost, or any number of options can provide a satisfactory story.
Personally, I feel that Hero Points grant an unnecessary level of confidence in a character's chances of survival, and de-emphasize proper planning and caution.
Now, if hero points had a mechanical link to some real in-world justification or source, I would be more inclined to use them.
Interesting -- I actually suggested to my GM that he consider introducing PF2 style hero points into our PF1 game.
I recently did this and am quite happy with the results.
My issue with hero points in PF1 (and I suspect this was why the devs changed it) is that no one used a hero point unless they had 3. Everyone saved them to protect themselves from dying.
What I love about the 2E system is that it's the opposite. It disincentives you from hoarding them.
"Oh, didn't use those for re-rolls? Well now you're on the precipice of dying so its going to cost you all of your Hero Points.
In addition, I'm playing with 2 players new to PF and the simplification of what Hero Points did was appreciated by them. (They couldn't keep up with +8 before a roll, but +4 after a roll. etc etc)
Does anyone think it would have any major effect if these were removed? If removed should they be replaced with something else?
Hero Points aren't new to gaming. My preference over the years has been to remove them and not replace them. I don't see a major effect in dropping them. Its one less rule to worry about.
I don't know that it's safe to assume removing them is low-impact, without actively playing the system for a while.
The statistical odds behind character death without hero points is a design factor. But the devs have added a method - given out once per hour - to dramatically reduce the odds of character death. That implies that the dying rules are balanced such that surviving isn't nearly a given and that characters may drop into dying condition more often than previous editions of the game.
Basically, when I read that DMs hand out "don't die" rewards hourly, and I look at the generally 50/50 odds on most rolls, and the hole "wounded" mechanic if you do come out of dying, plus the "doomed" condition, I start to suspect that the hero point rule may be somewhat integral.
Yes, traditional "okay Bob, your character is dead, what would you like done" discussion is very, very valid, but if it happens three times a session, something's wrong, and I suspect that might be what happens if hero points don't exist at all.
Compromise suggestion: remove the usage allowing d20 rerolls, give your players one per session, and see how often there are any left at the end of a session. If they rarely get used, remove them. If they're usually gone in an hour or two of gaming... start handing them out like the book says.
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That's a good point Anguish, however if my group's characters are dying multiple times an hour the order of operations for troubleshooting would be:
1. Check that everyone's stats are calculated correctly and they have appropriate gear
2. Check that the party balance doesn't warrant an adjustment in encounter difficulty
3. Check that the players understand tactical options available to them, including preparation, flanking, buffs, potions, etc.
4. Adjust death and dying rules to suit the game the players want to be playing.
If you do 1-3 and they're still dying a lot, then hero points or meta-game "get out of death free" cards might be well suited for the group. I typically find that step 2 weeds out quite a bit of death, and step 3 allows me to eventually ease back up to normal encounter difficulty.
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If removed should they be replaced with something else?I wrote up a replacement Hero Point mechanism, here:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42xoe?Hero-Points
Nice, but there is a bit of power creep there. One of my players is so offended by the mechanism that he refuses to use them. I'd prefer to not have option 2. But otherwise I like those suggestions.
At my table I limit the number that we hand out to one per level.
My PCs mostly use Hero Points to re-roll skill checks they rolled 1s on that their character is very good at.
Beyond that, they use them to roll out of critically failing effects that would effectively kill their character.
For example, last session I ran, my Bard used a hero point to avoid taking 100 damage and a critical fail on a flesh to stone, both from a Prismatic Spray. Our champion rolled a 1 on Dominate and kept herself from causing a non-standard campaign loss by being dominated by the villain for a day. A few sessions ago our cleric rolled a 1 on Finger of Death and would have died instantly if he didn't re-roll.
I'm glad I have hero points at my table because I don't want to be a killer GM and hero points let me play rough without TPKing the party by accident based on one bad saving throw.
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The workload they put on me is effectively zero.
If I had no hero points, I would add them, as I have since every campaign I've ever run since I first played Mutants and Masterminds 3e. The d20 is too variable to have an average play experience.
The critical rules for spells are meant for enemy monsters, who cannot spend hero points, but also have inflated health totals like 325 to my PC casters who have something like 140 at level 14.
I don't know why everyone has such a deep focus on not tainting their play experience by giving their players a break.
When using the stamina variant I just turn hero points into temporary resolve points that reset after a full rest. Maybe something similar can be done for regular games?
My PCs mostly use Hero Points to re-roll skill checks they rolled 1s on that their character is very good at.
Beyond that, they use them to roll out of critically failing effects that would effectively kill their character.
I think that the critical system creates the need for Hero Points. If you are regularily getting big critical hits and big critical spell failures. Then some times characters are going to die while taking reasonable risks.
It all depends on your tolerance for player character death. If your group is happy to accept a fair bit of death then don't use hero points.
I think that the critical system creates the need for Hero Points. If you are regularily getting big critical hits and big critical spell failures. Then some times characters are going to die while taking reasonable risks.
Yeah, this is part of the reason I don't like the new critical system.
Wasn't really a fan of the old one ("roll a 20, then confirm") because I never felt like I, as a player, was ever on the "receiving a benefit" end.
But in PF2? Didn't change. Monsters hit like truck (lots o' damage) and they aimed like snipers (very accurate to-hit rates), oh and were also tanks and HP sponges.
And of course, it never makes sense to spend 2 or 3 points to reroll a d20 or get an extra action when you could instead opt not to die for 1. Its like the costs were backwards.
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if hero points had a mechanical link to some real in-world justification or source, I would be more inclined to use them.
Nothing says you cannot create that for yourself. There are any number of in-world reasons to explain the "lucky" of the hero point. It just matters which one feels right for you and your campaign
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I need the hero point system, at least for the extra protection against dying. Despite decades of GMing, I know I tend towards more challenging encounters and sometimes I get a little too eager to test the characters, especially as I convert a 1E AP to 2E and have to scratch-build some of the enemy creatures. I don't shy away from killing a PC (or even a TPK), but I don't want it to be commonplace either. The hero points give me a safety net when I miscalculate the challenge of an encounter or when the player's dice go cold against mine bursting like a volcano.
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I would be different to decide to use a point to turn a failure into a success, but that would be out of control if they were given away for free like the current hero points.
Actually this is a great idea assuming that you dial down the issue rate a bit. Maybe once per four hours of play or some especially awesome, heroic act instead of 1/hour. It is definitely frustrating to save a hero point for that one moment that you really need it and then turn that five (fail) into a three (maybe a critical fail).
Simply calling something a success is a bit difficult to evaluate mathematically, but maybe someone with the knowledge could compare the value of a reroll vs an auto-success to see if there is a significant difference in the value of a hero point if we used the latter methodology instead of the former.
We removed them entirely and we lost a good number of characters some for legitament reasons and others because some creatures from AoA can be quite brutal. My groups biggest issue with meta currency is it turns everything into a retconnfest because everytime someone is in a bad situation a discussion arises of a thing they did an hour ago that we all forgot would have totally been fitting to award a hero point. So then we give it to them and they are saved but it cheapens the tension. My players accepted this made the game grittier but after seeing too many interesting characters die i made a very limited by i felt functional system that makes them a clear resource with no wiggle room. At the beginning of character creation and at the beginning of a new character level I give them hero points based on their level. If they have some remaining when they level up they lose them and their pool is refreshed.
Lvl
1-4 = 1
4-9 = 2
10-14 = 3
15-19 = 4
20 = 5
If a character dies mid level this gives their new character a fresh pool to play with and lets them do more cool things to promote their party integration.
It seems the most optimal way to use them is to use all but 1 point for rerolls and save the last point for an important moment at the climax of a level to save your character or get that needed hit in.
So far, it seems to be working. Saving yourself from death still drains all your points so lvl 1-4 likely means you use your 1 during a critical moment per level but otherwise save it in order to cheat death.
Maybe this method would work for other groups as well.