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Lost the multiple Lay on Hands per fights to a single Devotion spell per 10 minutes until lvl 6.
Lost the upgraded damage on martial weapons from Deific Weapon (Now only affects simple weapons).
Lost the ''Heal spell' via lvl4 feat.
CHA seems really useless now.
Did I miss something?
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Cha being useless is a mechanical upside. It's not a great stat and not having to invest in it is mechanically good.
Lay on Hands being once every ten minutes is potentially 48 times more healing per day than three uses per day is, and you can get more uses readily enough if you want more than one per battle.
They heal less in combat but almost infinitely more outside it, and are quite good in a fight. I'm not really sure what makes you think they're weaker.
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Lost the multiple Lay on Hands per fights to a single Devotion spell per 10 minutes until lvl 6.
Lost the upgraded damage on martial weapons from Deific Weapon (Now only affects simple weapons).
Lost the ''Heal spell' via lvl4 feat.
CHA seems really useless now.Did I miss something?
Deific weapon only applied to simple weapons in the playtest as well
If your deity’s favored weapon (see page 72) is uncommon,
you gain access to it. If the weapon is simple, increase the
damage die by one step when you wield it (d4 to d6, d6
to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12).
Cha being useless is a mechanical upside. It's not a great stat and not having to invest in it is mechanically good.
Lay on Hands being once every ten minutes is potentially 48 times more healing per day than three uses per day is, and you can get more uses readily enough if you want more than one per battle.
They heal less in combat but almost infinitely more outside it, and are quite good in a fight. I'm not really sure what makes you think they're weaker.
I agree with CHA being a bad stat, but it's what made paladins, paladins you know. Now that I can just put everything into STR and CON and make it into a beat stick feels like I should make a Fighter instead (Which is a lot stronger, and has a ton more options in his feats).
I want Champions to be good, but they feel underwhelming compared to the other classes. I'm still not sold.
Lost the multiple Lay on Hands per fights to a single Devotion spell per 10 minutes until lvl 6.
Lost the upgraded damage on martial weapons from Deific Weapon (Now only affects simple weapons).
Lost the ''Heal spell' via lvl4 feat.
CHA seems really useless now.Did I miss something?
Just means Champions can't be their own self-sustaining healers anymore (without further investment).
Deific Weapon was never really useful even in playtest. The only simple weapons are available to non-good deities, in which case Champions were not affected by this feature at all, it's still honestly a dead feature.
This was done because people could go multiclass Paladin to get Cleric-level healing, which Paizo clearly didn't like (I didn't either).
Charisma was made useless due to the overly negative response of Resonance as a game feature, which was now replaced with a more arbitrary restriction. Champions were plenty multiple-attribute-dependent compared to other classes as it was. Now they aren't as thinly-spread, which is kind of a good thing.
Their class feats are still very restrictive and lackluster though. Seriously, their 1st level choice is between either garbage domain powers or "empowering" their reaction (which most people didn't like anyway, but is now basically required to function with the class). I'd prefer a 1st level General feat choice over their class options.
I mean, PF1 was sort of an aberration in the history of the game in that "Paladin was an extremely strong class"- in the four editions of the other game leading up to PF1, it was usually fairly weak.
I think the expectation for PF2 is that the baseline for "things which were weak" is set much higher than that of "things which were strong". But the good thing is it's very easy to improve a weak class, given how PF2 is structured.
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I mean, PF1 was sort of an aberration in the history of the game in that "Paladin was an extremely strong class"- in the four editions of the other game leading up to PF1, it was usually fairly weak.
I think the expectation for PF2 is that the baseline for "things which were weak" is set much higher than that of "things which were strong". But the good thing is it's very easy to improve a weak class, given how PF2 is structured.
Before PF1, playing a Paladin meant you liked the concept so much that you were willing to play a really weaker class with abilities that did not match the ad. PF1 went the other direction and a bit too far maybe as players who would never have even looked at the paladin before were all over the class for its strong abilities, flavor and restrictions be damned.
Part of the reasoning for the power increase was that it was balanced by the restrictions. But table variance threw that out of the window.
PF2 Champion is notably different from what was before. I sincerely hope it will reach this precarious balance.
Because the concept of the Paladin is my favorite in any edition of the game.
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Also worth mentioning that a properly built Champion can use their reaction three times per turn, which is just insane with how good their reaction is.
I think Champion is very strong. Their 'mystical' stuff has been toned back a tad (though you still get a lot of it), but their martial stuff is on par with Fighters in many ways. That's really good and powerful.
I'd like an example of that, because Fighters looks insanely stronger with a lot more options every levels (Also they reach Legendary Weapon prof, while Champions reach Legendary Armor instead.)
I think Champion is very strong. Their 'mystical' stuff has been toned back a tad (though you still get a lot of it), but their martial stuff is on par with Fighters in many ways. That's really good and powerful.I'd like an example of that, because Fighters looks insanely stronger with a lot more options every levels (Also they reach Legendary Weapon prof, while Champions reach Legendary Armor instead.)
'On par' doesn't necessarily mean 'equivalent'. Champion and Fighter are both martial classes based on fighting skill (rather than mystical power of monks, or rage of barbarians). But their focus is different.
Fighter has more, and better, offensive options. So if that is what you mean by 'stronger', then no, the champion is not as strong. Not sure I would call it 'insanely stronger' though. That is a bit of a stretch.
Champion, on the other hand, has more, and better, defensive and protective options.
So they really don't compare apples-to-apples. But I agree that they are 'on par' with each other.
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Reactive Strike should be called Come and Get My Ally (1E Barbarian Come And Get Me reference)
As Lordcirth notes commonality of RS attacks PLUS AoO Reactions, those add up and help damage just like AoOs did in 1E.
Just as in 1E, lots of bonus attacks at full attack bonus is really a great formula for damage output.
So consider Paladin is 2nd tier, not a priority target, so better to attack his friends? Great, RS trigger.
Whelp, maybe not maybe try to take this Paladin down first? Whelp, Legendary Armor solid tank unit.
You can always submit and ask for forgiveness. ;-)
Reactive Strike should be called Come and Get My Ally (1E Barbarian Come And Get Me reference)
As Lordcirth notes commonality of RS attacks PLUS AoO Reactions, those add up and help damage just like AoOs did in 1E.
Just as in 1E, lots of bonus attacks at full attack bonus is really a great formula for damage output.So consider Paladin is 2nd tier, not a priority target, so better to attack his friends? Great, RS trigger.
Whelp, maybe not maybe try to take this Paladin down first? Whelp, Legendary Armor solid tank unit.
You can always submit and ask for forgiveness. ;-)
This has me wanting to make a dwarven champion with all of the extra hit points and survivability feats stacked on... You can hit my allies and get shut down by my reaction, or you can try to get through my top-tier AC and hundreds of hit points. Good luck. :P
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Don't sleep on Liberating Step; the tactical benefit of a free five foot step in an edition where five foot steps cost you an attack cannot be denied.
In fact, activating it on an enemy's first attack in a round can deny them further attacks entirely, since now they have to spend one of their precious actions moving back into range of their prior target.
The oaths that Champion can take at second are excellent, the Vengeance Oath let you use Lay on Hands to cause damage in any enemy that you see hurting an ally or an innocent and it causes good damage even in enemies that are not evil.
What Lay on Hands do in that case? 1 action damage and -2AC to the enemy that don't count for the MAP.
I mean, PF1 was sort of an aberration in the history of the game in that "Paladin was an extremely strong class"- in the four editions of the other game leading up to PF1, it was usually fairly weak.
1st Ed. AD&D paladins were powerhouses, especially the cavalier versions in Unearthed Arcana. Granted, 1st Ed. AD&D was much more dependent on finding the "right" magic items than 3.x and PF1.
I'm starting to see it.
The problem is see is mainly in the early levels, you feel so restricted in the options (feats) you have, there's always one feat that is better than the others in every tree until lvl 6, where you finally have to make a decision for your character.
Lvl1 you have no choice to take the Reaction upgrade. You need to keep that LoH handy in case an ally drops, so no Deity's domain for you.
Lvl2 Either Divine Grace or Oath, nothing very impressive anyway.
Lvl4 Aura of Courage. No choice here, it's by far the best feat at this level.
I'm not fond of the new focus system. Sure, it's more healing over the course of a day compared to before, but I preferred having more options in battle rather than a ''Need to keep for resurrect'' Lay on Hands that you can only use once per fight until lvl 6 (which delays your tanking capabilities if you do take the extra focus point.)
Until you unlock more reactions per turn, I still feel the class is under-performing.
the way i see it, while both grace and Oath offer quite flavorful and (in some cases/campaigns) impactful options, and while Aura of Courage is indeed very strong (so many monsters with fear aura...)if you don't like them, you can always pick up a Domain power with those feats (if you feel you're restrained in your options)
alternative, you can always use those feats to add an archetype, like grabbing a few skill feats and skills and a Quick draw from rogue as an example, or a few (whatver list you want) Cantrips from sorc, or even more "fhgty stuff" from Fighter and basically lose nothing, since those 2 feats you mention, while powerful aren't "core" imo.
I'm still torn on the idea of archetyping. I love the options, but Aura of Courage is really strong.
Here's my idea for now: Build as Tanky as possible, getting the shield feats starting lvl6 and up. Still put points into Charisma to make it into an Intimidation monster with Demoralize (and the skill feats associated with it)
If I have a Rogue in my party: Make it a Goblin with Goblin Scuttle to allow him to get easier Flanks with me (Another reaction lol).
Aura of Courage is very strong, but there are a lot of ways to fight Fear, including Mercy. Which is a pretty strong contender if you already have a fighter with a breastplate of command , for example. Or a cavalier's banner. I made that decision on the Champion I built.
The problem is see is mainly in the early levels, you feel so restricted in the options (feats) you have, there's always one feat that is better than the others in every tree until lvl 6, where you finally have to make a decision for your character.
I don't think that a player has to always choose the most generally powerful option at every level in order to be effective.
Ultimately, every class has only one option that is the most optimal choice - by definition of what most optimal means.
Maybe leave some room for other players to be awesome too, instead of feeling like you have to do everything yourself.