Kineticist in 2e

[AnimatedPaper]

Gaulin wrote:

I mean I'm down with infusions being class features, but it would be hard to do right in my mind. There was multiple infusions to choose from each odd level to customize your playstyle. If everyone got a set one every odd level (and a separate track for each element) it would be a little disappointing but they probably have to cut corners somewhere I guess.

I know it'll probably be a good while before we get more classes and kineticist will be more work than most to get right. But it's my favorite class and I won't be able to fully make the jump until it's in! Still going to dabble in 2e though.

I didn’t mean you’d get a set infusion progression. I meant you’d get a choice between several every time you get a new one, much like sorcerers pick new spells.

[PossibleCabbage]

I don't see any reason we can't put class tags on skill feats. So some "utility talents" without combat applications could just be skill feats with class and element tags. Like "earth climb" could just be an athletics feat with the kineticist and earth tags, "telekinetic finesse" could be a thievery feat with the kineticist and aether tags.

We can make the class feats a choice of infusions or utility talents with combat application, and give each element a few iconic infusions/utility talents. Like there's no reason not to give every telekineticist pushing infusion, foe throw, and tk haul.

[Gaulin]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Gaulin wrote:

I mean I'm down with infusions being class features, but it would be hard to do right in my mind. There was multiple infusions to choose from each odd level to customize your playstyle. If everyone got a set one every odd level (and a separate track for each element) it would be a little disappointing but they probably have to cut corners somewhere I guess.

I know it'll probably be a good while before we get more classes and kineticist will be more work than most to get right. But it's my favorite class and I won't be able to fully make the jump until it's in! Still going to dabble in 2e though.

I didn’t mean you’d get a set infusion progression. I meant you’d get a choice between several every time you get a new one, much like sorcerers pick new spells.

Oh gotcha. I mean that would be great, just seems like a huge amount of work for one class. Don't want to get my hopes up too high. Most classes only get feats to choose from but I suppose infusions are kind of like spells.

[Seisho]

Hmmm...interesting notion
Getting an infusion pool similar to spell slots and getting new infusions like casters get their spells

not sure how I would like it to play, at the very least fusions would have to be spontaneus casting but that would certainly answer the question on how to make recources

infusions would be a special set of 'spells' that modify the blast belonging to it - with heightening for example increasing the added aoe effect of such an infusion

on the other hand that would be really complicated on the action economy (with 2 kinds of infusions) and the recource economy (how 2 spell slots per round used, some free infusions etc)

While it is an interesting thought I hope it won't come this way

[Vidmaster7]

Well I wouldn't want it to be just a re-skinned sorcerer. I feel like the old kinetcist did a good job of not doing that. I do want to keep burn but I agree that it should be not a required option but a way of really buffing yourself at the cost of hp and it would be cool if it wasn't a standard option but a feat option since some people don't like it.

[Lanathar]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

Well I wouldn't want it to be just a re-skinned sorcerer. I feel like the old kinetcist did a good job of not doing that. I do want to keep burn but I agree that it should be not a required option but a way of really buffing yourself at the cost of hp and it would be cool if it wasn't a standard option but a feat option since some people don't like it.

This is definitely what I have witnessed with burn. A certain amount is built in as required and then any extra is avoided at all costs by a combination of player play style and increasingly arbitrary ways of reducing it built into the class contributing to very muddled thinking

It very much should be that taking burn really allows you to do interesting things at a relatively severe cost . And you shouldn’t be able to ignore it - because what you pay is worth the trade off , not something you only pay unless absolutely forced to

[Vidmaster7]

Right. I agree.

[Leotamer]

I think an important part of a blaster's identity is a lack of focus on resource economy. They are called all-day blasters, because you can blast all-day, and in return, they aren't quite as flexible as normal casters. I think the kineticist should be action-economy focused, with the ability to tap into a daily resource in order to augment their action economy.

There bare-bones of my idea to get across is that infusions use some separate encounter-based pool. It starts at 0 at the start of each encounter, and you can't do any pre-encounter stuff to boost it.

There are only two ways to get more in your pool, spend an action to get 1, or as a free action take the burn condition to get some number. I like to image burn as a push-your-luck type mechanic, with very low penalties at the start, but gets progressively more severe until you start dying from it. You can only get rid of burn through rest.

At level 1, it would be 1 action to kinetic blast, 1 action to form infuse it, 1 action to substance infuse it.

I am not sure if this would work, but my again my two big things are: Action-economy focus and burn is semi-optional and is a supplement to action economy.

[duje]

Temperans wrote:

I dont even think there are many element types left that could be used. I can only think of acid (which was mentioned) and sonic, but both of those have very few properties and abilities that can be implemented as a talent/infusion. If it's about implementing existing bloodlines, most of them aren't even elements, or they are different versions of the same thing.

For those that don't know, lore wise Kineticists draw power from the elemental planes (Air, Fire, Earth, Water). Aether, Void, and Wood elements are drawn from where the elements meet another plane: Ethereal, Negative, and First World respectively. The only remaining planes are: Material, positive, and shadow.

positive, negative.. there isnt much more in spells either, thing is, kineticist is sorcerers done right, but incomplete, and bloodlines from sorcerer would round them up nicely

So for instance a serpent blood sorcerer would get serpentine feutures, fangs, charm/poison element, think of Thulsa Doom from Conan, and sorcerers done as kineticist would also be great as enemies in your campaigns, because of the bloodline there are basically half monsters/outsiders or something close to it, and sorcerer/kineticst would give you a robust toolbox to craft your bosses

as for wild talents, i think it would be best done as feats, while instead of getting new spells you get to chose infusions for your elements.

[nick1wasd]

What if... Radical idea...... Kineticists had no set class features beyond 1st, and a class feat EACH level... Alright, back to my cave... On a more serious note, that would be a way to fix the modularity of the class, giving them few and far between class features, and then just giving them a **** tonne of class feats to really deck them out in the classic Build-A-Bear style they're known for. Also, I think blasts should work like the Ring of the Ram, where each action piled on the first gave you more dice/range, so you can *pew* *pew* *pew* or *BANG!* some people

[Lanathar]

nick1wasd wrote:

What if... Radical idea...... Kineticists had no set class features beyond 1st, and a class feat EACH level... Alright, back to my cave... On a more serious note, that would be a way to fix the modularity of the class, giving them few and far between class features, and then just giving them a **** tonne of class feats to really deck them out in the classic Build-A-Bear style they're known for. Also, I think blasts should work like the Ring of the Ram, where each action piled on the first gave you more dice/range, so you can *pew* *pew* *pew* or *BANG!* some people

Could you clarify what you mean by “fixing the modularity of the class”.

The class is modular but that seems to be by design - almost certainly with 2E in mind given who the designer is and the inbuilt maths fixes including random “size” boosts to stats despite no change in size (picked so that they stacked with the enhancement everyone is expected to have) and the boosts to hit and damage to align it with a full BAB class which is seemingly couldn’t be because it was d8 HD in 1E

So what is the issue with modularity?
I thought the issue was complexity and that burn is both required and then after hitting a certain point attempted to be avoided at all costs

[Leotamer]

I approve of the idea of choosing between pew-pew-pew or BANG!.

[nick1wasd]

Lanathar wrote:

nick1wasd wrote:

What if... Radical idea...... Kineticists had no set class features beyond 1st, and a class feat EACH level... Alright, back to my cave... On a more serious note, that would be a way to fix the modularity of the class, giving them few and far between class features, and then just giving them a **** tonne of class feats to really deck them out in the classic Build-A-Bear style they're known for. Also, I think blasts should work like the Ring of the Ram, where each action piled on the first gave you more dice/range, so you can *pew* *pew* *pew* or *BANG!* some people

Could you clarify what you mean by “fixing the modularity of the class”.

The class is modular but that seems to be by design - almost certainly with 2E in mind given who the designer is and the inbuilt maths fixes including random “size” boosts to stats despite no change in size (picked so that they stacked with the enhancement everyone is expected to have) and the boosts to hit and damage to align it with a full BAB class which is seemingly couldn’t be because it was d8 HD in 1E

So what is the issue with modularity?
I thought the issue was complexity and that burn is both required and then after hitting a certain point attempted to be avoided at all costs

Modularity in that in PF1, the kineticist was one of the most variable classes available, you could have 2 kine's with base class (no archetype) and the same element, and they'd still play super different if you picked different wild talents and infusions. With only 11 class feats available in PF2, you can't get nearly that close in customization. My "fixing the modularity" remark was in reference to Gaulin and Cabbage trying to figure out how you can still get that extreme level of personalization.

[Lanathar]

nick1wasd wrote:

Lanathar wrote:

nick1wasd wrote:

What if... Radical idea...... Kineticists had no set class features beyond 1st, and a class feat EACH level... Alright, back to my cave... On a more serious note, that would be a way to fix the modularity of the class, giving them few and far between class features, and then just giving them a **** tonne of class feats to really deck them out in the classic Build-A-Bear style they're known for. Also, I think blasts should work like the Ring of the Ram, where each action piled on the first gave you more dice/range, so you can *pew* *pew* *pew* or *BANG!* some people

Could you clarify what you mean by “fixing the modularity of the class”.

The class is modular but that seems to be by design - almost certainly with 2E in mind given who the designer is and the inbuilt maths fixes including random “size” boosts to stats despite no change in size (picked so that they stacked with the enhancement everyone is expected to have) and the boosts to hit and damage to align it with a full BAB class which is seemingly couldn’t be because it was d8 HD in 1E

So what is the issue with modularity?
I thought the issue was complexity and that burn is both required and then after hitting a certain point attempted to be avoided at all costs

Modularity in that in PF1, the kineticist was one of the most variable classes available, you could have 2 kine's with base class (no archetype) and the same element, and they'd still play super different if you picked different wild talents and infusions. With only 11 class feats available in PF2, you can't get nearly that close in customization. My "fixing the modularity" remark was in reference to Gaulin and Cabbage trying to figure out how you can still get that extreme level of personalization.

Ah I understand - your point that Kineticist was more modular than 2E characters. Like the anti-cleric that wasn't modular at all and the new edition is kind of a mid point

As I alluded to I think 1E Kineticist had large parts of being a 2E experiment in it. I am not sure how it could be more variable. Best i can think of is unique element based Skill feats. As I don't see there being any mechanism for more class feats

And certain wild talents could certainly be re-flavoured into skill feats anyway. So kinetic healing being some unique boost to the healing skill - unlikely to be "heal as much as my blast" - but this is a different game

[MaxAstro]

I will chip in that I like Burn, but I dislike Elemental Overflow; the idea of Burn being a thing you take as a desperation move for extra oomph but aren't mechanically assumed to be taking all the time sits well with me.

I particularly like the "accept the Drained condition to reFocus in combat" concept.

It's also kinda funny, I was originally put off by how complicated of a class Kineticist seems to be. What changed my mind was the Kingmaker CRPG - since the rules just work without having to interpret them, I was able to cleanly see how they work and how the class fits together, and it is now one of my favorite classes.

I actually homebrewed a class long ago with the "all-day blaster" concept - actually called Conduit and based on the Infamous games - and it's kinda funny how similar it ended up being to Kineticist.

In any case, really hoping Kineticist comes back in 2e, and I agree that the action economy and general system design seems made for it. I also love nick's radical idea of making the class completely build-a-bear, to be honest.

[LuniasM]

I'm building a Kineticist class (slowly) and I decided to make Kinetic Blast a Cantrip with variable actions. 1A is for melee blasts and scales more slowly, while 2A is a ranged blast that deals higher damage to account for the action cost. Then Infusions function similar to Additives for the Alchemist, where you can reduce the effective spell level to add things like different shapes and rider effects. In this version, Kinetic Blade is a feat that gives your 1A kinetic blast a weapon trait. Honestly, the hardest part is coming up with 4 distinct benefits for some feats like Elemental Defense, but so far it's coming along pretty well.

[Vanessa Hoskins]

I cast resurrect thread.

This is so much fun to find this thread after working on the Legendary Kineticist for the last year (mostly the last couple of months). Much of what you discuss here is what I discussed with Jason Nelson of Legendary Games at PaizoCon 2019! That's when the plans for the Legendary Kineticist came into being. With some assistance from N. Jolly and Onyx Tanuki, we were able to put together a kineticist class for Pathfinder 2nd Edition.

I created the class with a lot of the concepts mentioned in this thread: a cantrip based class with reliance on Focus Points and special powers as their core mechanics. This let infusions become unique metamagic focus spells while Gather Power and Accept Burn become actions that mitigate Focus Point costs. These give your kineticist strategic options when determining how to manifest their powers.

If you'd like more information, I've been posting updates daily to Twitter with the #LegendaryKineticist tag. Come and join the conversation!

The Legendary Kineticist should release within the next couple of weeks, I'll be sure to post a link when it's available!

[n8_fi]

Hello! I've never used internet forums before, so hopefully this all works. I actually started making Occult Adventures class conversions months and months ago intending to post them all at once, but I've only really finished 2 and who knows how long the rest will take so I'm putting them out there now.

This is the first one I made: a Kineticist class with a multiclass archetype as well. Unlike the Legendary Kineticist mentioned above (which I recommend checking out btw, it's well put together) which is more focused on the kineticist as a caster, I made the kineticist a martial who wields raw elemental energy as a weapon. This came out feeling like a bit of a mix between a monk and a sorcerer I think, but it fills what I believe to be a unique niche in the game: a mystical blaster that isn't a real spellcaster. Some elements that carried through from 1e but with alterations are Burn (renamed Overexert) and Gather Power.

Take a look if you're interested. It's been beta read and edited multiple times to reach this draft, but additional feedback is always appreciated (especially actual play feedback)! :)

Link to the pdf stored on Google Drive:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XgrjUgvBrmG8XqoITP_pp3X48ZlUNQ5k/view?usp= sharing

[Amaya/Polaris]

I haven't looked at the Legendary Games Kineticist, but in a vacuum this looks very nice! Here's what I noticed:
★Readying Invigoration (which recovers way more Drained than is necessary) and Overexert causing the drained condition to go away frequently eats into the Intuitive benefit. The latter could also restore the lost HP, restore more than 1 Drained, be usable in combat somehow, or have another benefit over base. In general, Practiced (and especially its upgrades, don't allow for legendary proficiency please that's Fighter's thing) might be a bit too strong and the other two might be a little too weak. (8 HP a level isn't a ton of buffer to burn through with double Drained, Con focus or not.)
★Geo Blast having 1d8 damage doesn't really make up for both 15 ft range and not having Agile. Many specialist Monk unarmed attacks are 1d8 Agile, I see no reason why Geo Blast shouldn't be given that it's the main/only option at early levels. The range might be enough drawback. Aether Blast is also potentially a little underpowered or at least dull for an expanded blast, even if it deals force damage.
★In general, the ability priorities of this class are interesting in their give and take, but also kind of murky. In particular, since blasts don't factor in Constitution without Overexert, taking Constitution as key ability seems like a slightly bad idea despite being presented as default. They need a fair amount of Dexterity for AC, but can't take it as a key ability or power DCs and things with Dexterity. Giving them Medium armor might help with the latter.
★The archetype is a bit strange. Blasts are cool, but they shouldn't be treated like spells, proficiency-wise — they're very much attacks, and breaking the proficiency curve for casters who take the archetype isn't a good idea. I also don't think they merit the damage drop, especially since it doesn't do anything for pyro blasts. If they can't just scale with martial weapon proficiency by default, an early feat that grants the "scale with your other weapons" benefit would work better.

It's really impressive how many feats and focus spells you have, and they look fun as heck. Great work overall!