Franchise Manager
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Today, we announced our plans to produce a 10th anniversary hardcover update of the Kingmaker Adventure Path. As part of the process of updating it to the current rules set, we'll also be going through the last decade's worth of content from this forum to incorporate feedback from players and GMs of the original campaign.
But we're also planning on adapting the best content from the Kingmaker CRPG to the tabletop, just as Owlcat adapted the original tabletop campaign into their game.
Please let us know what elements of the Kingmaker CRPG you most want to see adapted to the tabletop version of the game. Specifically, I'd be interested in knowing what side-quests, NPCs, wilderness locations and encounters, and innovations to the kingdom-building and -management systems are most popular.
Thanks ahead of time for the feedback! We're excited to work with the community and Owlcat to make the best possible anniversary hardcover compilation we possibly can.
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The CRPG gave the player the option to automate the kingdom building portion of the game. I don't have the AP so am not sure if this option already exists in the first edition version, but could the second edition version perhaps have this option for tables that wouldn't want to dive into this portion of the adventure path? Simple rules for automating this part would be greatly appreciated in case my players aren't interested in it.
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1.The ability to recruit a certain lich to your kingdom would be huge.
2.The updated goals of the bbeg and her need to make amends to the eldest and how she makes those amends were a fantastic addition to the story of the whole ap.
3. The entire side bit with the goblin village was a ton of fun.
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Some of the items were really cool. I'd like to see one of the Wyvern Wondrous Figurines make it in, or the magical quivers that enchant arrows drawn from them!
For the Kingdom system: I really loved the way that different advisors would give you different reactions for various events. The first time I read about Harrim as High Priest conjuring a Manifestation of Groetus to make my citizens more faithful? I was absolutely blown away!
I loved A lot of the prologue, especially the Jamandi's Cache puzzle and although I don't think there's a way to simulate the surprise of suddenly being attacked by mimic oozes after ten or twenty encounters with the cache out of the blue after you install a new DLC? I'd love it if you can manage that too.
I really enjoyed Lostlarn Keep from DLC 2 as a sort of optional side dungeon, as well as basically every part of Varn and Cephal's characterizations in that DLC.
Linzi is the best, and I hope you include her and develop the hints in the subtextual hints that we get in the game that she's attracted to women. And while it's kind of controversial when she steals some BP to buy a printing press? That sort of thing is a lot more fun in a Tabletop RPG where players can react without the constraints of programming.
As for encounters: I LOVED the Crag Linnorm near that one broken Bridge hiding in a cave available early on. And The Kobold/Mite shared dungeon is so much more fun than the original version of those two factions. I also loved The Lonely Barrow. The way that the door locked you in until you went through the first floor to the other entrance? And the fact that there was a Lich that was sealed hiding underneath the entry floor that you needed to kill all these other enemies to unlock, but that you could also teleport past the barrier and fight him that way? That was really fun. I also liked Ratnook Hill.
On a more personal note, I'd love it if Tiger made it into the Tabletop adaptation the way he did for the CRPG, but that's more personal for me than something I think is of wide appeal.
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If you could expand the game to include the final part of it from the video game somehow, that would be really cool. TLK was a really great boss.
I also really enjoyed Harrim and Tristian, and Lander made for an interesting moron to have around. That said, give me Harrim, please, and the other two would be nice if you have time.
The expanded story with Tartuk and having him help in chapter 2 was neat too, so that would also be cool?
But seriously.
Harrim.
He is the only character in any game to ever inspire me to parody a song on stream.
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Honestly, I would love a sidequest or like, mini-adventure based on Varnhold's Lot, the DLC that marks you as Vaegar Varn's General before a certain event.
If not, I'd love Linzi, or the stats for an actual Owlcat pet or companion.
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I GM'd through Kingmaker and played through the Kingmaker CRPG.
The second time I GM'd through Kingmaker I started the party in Restov, where they received their charter and met some of the other adventuring groups (such as Maegar Varn). I like the CRPG start (it served as a way to teach Pathfinder and its mechanics to new players) but I think if you leverage the CRPG, utilize more politicking than just combat. Something similar to Crownfall's politics rules in the Senate Halls in War for the Crown. Doesn't need to be as complex, but giving some details on influential nobles, up-and-comers, and other movers and shakers would be very helpful (and I think add to the game experience).
Second, I commend the CRPG for trying to tie in the BBEG early, but I would prefer the Season of Bloom content not make its way into the tabletop version.
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There are many pieces of the CRPG I would love to see in an anniversary edition, and I'm far from finished with the game! (Right now I'm in Vordakai's tomb). In fact, a number of the CRPG's subplots are cooler than certain portions of the original AP.
Let me mention a few from the top of my head:
- The battle with the Lamashtu cultists, especially the fact that they were recruited from the barony's citizens. There should be a bit more of an opportunity to convert them back to humanity's side.
- The fey's invitation to the baron under the condition that he comes alone.
- Most of the companions, especially Jubilost's much expanded personality and role.
- Pretty much all of the companions' special events and subquests. Special mention to Linzi's printing press, just hilarious.
- The visiting Numerian barbarians. Great NPCs.
- The troll who genuinely tries to make peace with humans (I forgot his name).
- The expanded role of Tartuk (I did something similar in my own campaign before I knew of the CRPG).
- The goblin village.
- Candlemere.
A few things not necessarily in the CRPG which I feel would be good additions:
- Most of Dudemeister's ideas (check out the Kingmaker subforum)
- Something to happen under the lakes, like ancient underwater temple or submerged elven village... Colossal, ancient monsters in the depths..
- A lot more ties to Brevoy and River Kindgom politics, especially in the Kingdom Building portion, but also in the adventure. I felt Brevoy was under-utilized in the original AP.
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Everything hinting at the actual villain being who it is needs to be put in. The last book came out of nowhere and needs better foreshadowing if not explicit mentions.
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For the purpose of this adventure path, assume all NPCs are bisexual.
-Paizo publishing, Jade Regent Player’s Guide
Ever since reading that, I always do.
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1. My favorite change in the CRPG (relative to the original AP) was the foreshadowing of the BBG and the consistent inclusion of bits of fey elements throughout the adventure. It really made the whole adventure "hang together" in a way that the original adventure path did not.
2. My least favorite change in the CPRG (relative to the original AP) was the way the kingdom building rules were implemented. This was an enormously entertaining part of the original AP; not so in the CPRG.
3. On a related note, I'll second the hope that the updated version will take inspiration from at least some of the kingdom-building refinements that some of the developers (like Jason, I believe) posted on the boards while the AP was running. These were great modifications that made the whole kingdom-building side of things more fun.
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I too must appeal to you all to consider including both appearances from Harrim and more content with Tartuccio.
Other than than, providing some sorta "pregen" content to advance the Kingdom for a good "Kingdom in the Background" function that still lets the players drop in and do as much or as little as they wish, in effect, a good way to ratchet back the micromanagement but still let players make meaningful choices about how they build their Kingdom.
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BP stats for teleportation circles for fast travel would be cool too, now that I think about it.
By far the most interesting part was the decisions that we got to make in the Throne Room. It always made me feel more invested in the Kingdom when we had to decide, for example, if we should hire spellcasters or swordlords as military officers, if Necromancy should be allowed or how to deal with slums.
It seemed like the kind of thing that would allow for more flavor and make the characters feel like they're truly calling the shots in the country.
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Can I vote for "everything"? Kingmaker was my favorite adventure path, and the CRPG is one of my favorite video games. This is the best news I've heard since the announcement of the bonus tabletop adventure module! I want this so much I dropped my breakfast and cried. Pretty sure my wife thought someone had died. I am so incredibly stoked about this!!!
Oh, where to begin! The Prologue in Jamandi Aldori's mansion is something I've been adding to my home games for a few months now, mostly fudging it with the CRPG as a base. It made a great place to have all the players meet and then teach them to work together for survival. Really jump started the whole fellowship thing and makes keeping the party together easier.
Maybe some kind of middle ground between the Ultimate Campaign kingdom rules and the more condensed way it's done in the CRPG?
Definitely Linzi. I love how she brought context to the story.
OH! For the love of Zura, I beg you, give us Jade-Regent-style relationship scores and romance path options for the main companions! This would be my biggest personal want. Ways to connect more with them, kind of like knowing their favorite foods gives you a bonus in the CRPG. Their stories became very important to me on the backdrop of the overall mission in the Stolen Lands, and really helped me immerse. I've tried carrying that over to the tabletop as much as possible, but without a very in-depth Prima strategy guide it's been difficult! lol
There's too much, I just can't, I want it all! I am SO freaking ready for this. TAKE MY MONEY. DAMN, what a good day!!!
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I agree with ... pretty much all of aiglos's statements, but more importantly, I wanted to point out the one I was slightly less in favor of
16. This might be heresy but make this anniversary edition of Kingmaker for Pathfinder 2nd edition.
Aiglos, you will be happy to hear, this IS a 2nd ed product.
Personally, I will not be switching any games mid stream, so I'd MUCH prefer, a 1st ed copy be made available along side the 2nd ed product, even if it's just a pdf copy.
Going to try and keep this short as to not derail things: Once PAST character creation, play has been incredibly smooth. (Barring the 'uh, hold on, I have no idea HOW that works ... OK, we're doing it THIS way' that comes up from a new, and evolving, system.)
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The prologue in Restov definitely sets the scene better than starting at Oleg's, and gives the players a chance to meet some of the significant NPCs of the campaign. You wouldn't have to have the whole assassin attack thing, but a map of Jamandi's mansion in the book and some interesting things to do there would be great (and you could suggest some ideas for adventures at the mansion without providing huge amounts of details, including something like the assassin attack. Unlike a CRPG, human GMs can fill in the details themselves).
As others have said, the foreshadowing of all the major antagonists in the CRPG was much better than the original AP, and would be something to add to the book. As part of that, the CRPG did a much better job of exposing you to the back-stories of these antagonists without "you find Tartuk's diary, and it turns out that..." sort of info-dumps. I really loved what Owlcat did with Tartuk, involving the player in his genesis.
Some of the CRPG's foreshadowing might be trickier with an entire party of players rather than the CRPG's single protagonist though - Nyrissa can't really adopt "her hound" from amongst the PCs without giving that one player a lot more spotlight than the rest. You might include several options for ways that Nyrissa might adopt different PCs, with multiple guises she could adopt so they may not immediately know it's the same individual, which would also work for versatility to match the specific party your players make.
Having existing neutral settlements in the Stolen Lands, like the CRPG's Siverstep Village, would be very good. It gives the bandits someone to prey on, justifying their existence before the PCs came along. It makes for some lower-stakes politicking for the players, as they try to woo these neutral settlements into their new realm. It also gives plenty of hooks for adventuring if the settlements have their own problems.
Speaking of which, more adventure hooks for urban adventures within the players' realm would be great. These don't need to be super detailed or take up lots of pages of the book - just a paragraph for each hook, outlining some sort of adventure or problem, like the CRPG artisan and companion quests, could give plenty of material for a keen GM without taking up lots of space.
I liked the way various ruins in the CRPG were tied together thematically. Rather than the original AP's many isolated ruins with their own history (which the players really never had a chance to discover), the CRPG made most ruins either from the Cyclops civilisation (foreshadowing Vordakai), the Dwarven Shield Road (tying into Hargulka's stronghold and Harrim) or the Taldans.
In the CRPG, I loved the way that various ruling council roles were combined when your barony was small, so two roles could be done by a single councillor initially, and the two roles only needed two individuals to do the work when that area had grown above a certain point. This has multiple benefits - you start off with a small council and don't have to fill so many roles initially, and you get a real sense of growth as your council expands. You also get the opportunity to recruit new NPCs to your council progressively through the adventure rather than having to do it all at the start, allowing you to meet a wider range of individuals before you have a slot to fill.
I also liked that each council role was tied to a realm skill (unsurprisingly, since I had the same thing in my Fate-based alternative realm building rules), rather than the RRR/UC "Economy, Loyalty, Stability" trio of realm stats.
A request for the realm building rules, whatever they look like - they should allow the players to "zoom out". While initially the players may start out choosing to build individual buildings etc in their single settlement, eventually when the realm has grown and they're managing dozens of settlements across hundreds of miles of land they shouldn't have to be messing around constructing individual taverns and stables and whatnot. There should be a way to do more coarse-grained but far-reaching (and presumably more expensive) changes which affect whole areas without worrying about the individual buildings inside the settlements.
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Started running it last year. PLaying the CRPG. Aiglos made a bunch of good comments, so i'll go another way. Emphasis on dudemeister change to Hargulka.
My main comment :
- Fill the empty hexes.
Agreed! This doesn't mean every hex needs to have its own encounter. For this purpose, I used 1-paragraph locale descriptions which I found on this very board. Some great folks have compiled a whole bunch of descriptions, some basic, some intriguing or magical, all pretty fitting to the setting. I just rolled like for random encounters. In most cases, this was just for flavor. In some cases, it inspired me to add an encounter. In other (the best!) cases, it inspired players to look for something more, and I went on improvisation mode. I remember great fun with a place where oaks grew to phenomenal heights. So, the acorns where huge, too. So, there had to be... giant squirrels. The players had a great time trying to chase / speak to the giant squirrels!
So I think the anniversary version could have like 1-2 pages per chapter worth of landscape descriptions along with the random encounter tables. This really helps flesh out the land, and therefore the story, since in Kingmaker a lot of the story is really the land itself.
I also wholly agree with the idea that various political and religious factions, Brevoy powers, potential allies/enemies, etc, negotiate with the new barony, offering BPs in exchange of various benefits. This really installs the reality of kingdom building into the game by linking roleplay with the mechanics of kingdom growth.
Tartuccio as a rival adventuring party leader.
The on-screen political engagement with Brevoy of the prologue, coronation, and advisor.
1-2 sentence descriptions of random kingdom events rather than 1-2 words. (Perhaps a handful of fleshed out examples under each 1-2 word event category)
Notes on which flipmats or map packs work well for random encounters in different areas (or for individual mini-quests, though too much designing quest areas around existing maps could get repetitive?)
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My suggestion is for the optional 'continue the adventure' sections for the original AP. Drop or really change the 'Fey lords troll the PCs' scenario. Going through all of that for 'LOLLLLLL j/k' makes me want to start investing in cold iron.
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Taking on Choral for the end of the campaign would be amazing!
And provides a different ending from both the original AP and the CRPG.
Tie it in with something as simple as destroying Nyrissa/her realm releases him and his armies as she had captured him trying to test her abilities or some such thing.
It's already been said, but I'll add my voice to it. More foreshadowing of the BBEG. Her involvement is limited mostly to just the last two books of Kingmaker, so seeing a little more of her machinations earlier in the game would be nice.
Also, I don't know how mass combat worked in the CRPG (I haven't gotten that far), but I (and almost everyone I've spoken to about mass combat) thinks it's broken and/or boring. I had to implement my own rules for how to do mass combat to get my players interested in it and it's been working well. So maybe some kind of update to those rules would be good.
Thanks!
A chapter to run it in Tian Xia or convert to other locations would be really cool!
More and better maps, that's one of my most repeated issue
Allow mass combat earlier
Yes! Both of these!
Having to map out each of the groves in book 6 was a pain!And having a small militia in book 2, similar to the one you use in book 4, would be great! (And makes sense, because, really, why wouldn't people get together to go and fight off a group of monsters?)
The way kingdom events are implemented in the game feels far more interactive than how they were implemented in the original AP or in Ultimate Campaign. I like the idea of each event being a tangible thing that one council member needs to take point on solving, with multiple possible outcomes, which can be affected by which council member takes on the task. The main trick would be to balance the system with party members wanting to use downtime for other stuff, and needing to spend time adventuring, but in the CRPG, you could go adventuring with a party member who was working on an event and it would still complete... and that kinda implies that each council member has their own organization underneath them. The high priest(ess) can delegate tasks to other clerics, the spymaster has a network of spies, etc.
Only 17 hours left to back this!
And the next stretch goal unlocks a new dungeon (that's in neither the original AP nor the CRPG) on Candlemere!
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Ah man, I didn't notice this earlier so now I feel worried if nobody will see my comments :'D
Well first thing is that I hope update doesn't remove any of the content that CRPG did remove. I mean they removed bog striders and centaurs!(they dropped lot of other AP sidequests too for some reason...) And I also hope taking inspiration from CRPG doesn't mean changing the original context too much. I mean, the CRPG really did changed some important details!(I don't know if I like lot of villains being more sympathetic than in the AP, but I do like meeting Tartuk's gnome identity earlier.) I do like most of the original new content, but I don't think all of it fits in the AP, some of them work better for single player CRPG than multiplayer tabletop game.
Like, I don't mind if Nyrissa gets foreshadowed more in the AP, but I do mind it if its done in form of dream visions like in the crpg.
On stuff that I really liked, I did like how Kingdom events in CRPG involved lot of different river kingdoms and nearby countries giving it more political feel while AP's kingdom building is kinda isolated as if other countries didn't exist.
(sorry if I sound so negative :'D But I'd be kinda sad if stuff like mite and kobold lair being combined was also a thing in updated hardcover, I liked those areas being separate. Or if Centaurs got replaced by tiger lords. Or boggards being replaced by second lizardfolk tribe. That sort of stuff. Garuum didn't make appearance in crpg. They actually changed enough many things in CRPG that after book 2 I really didn't get spoiled for AP sidequests or main quest encounters even though I'm playing the kingmaker ap same time... I guess I'm bit paranoid about 2e hardcover update becoming adaption of crpg, in same way how comic book movies tend to influence designs of comic book characters after their release, I know thats silly thing to worry about)
On other hand, I think it would be cool if bonus npc for kingmaker from song of silver and Dragon Lair in Stolen Lands area from Dragons Unleashed got added to the hardcover upgrade.
As others have said please keep the prologue at Jamandi's mansion. It's such a great way to start an adventure and get the party to immediately band together while also foreshadowing the future conflict with Pitax and their underhanded tactics.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I am ultra late here and probably any decisions regarding what to include have already been made... but I'm going to add my two cents anyway.
No need to worry about being late. We are definitely still monitoring this thread and happy to hear people's feedback about elements they liked and didn't like from the CRPG. We're continuing to nail down exactly what will be in the final books and what elements to incorporate from a variety of sources, so by all means sound off if you've got thoughts here and in the companion thread about things you especially enjoyed or thought needed definite fixing from the PF1 tabletop version.