So playing in Carrion Crown, with some home rules like the Elephant in the room feat tax rules and some others.
I'm looking into idea of what to do with my Human Brawler and came across Dimensional Agility feat tree. This... actually seems pretty good and I might be able to get to it in a decent rate.
"But MerlinCross, Brawlers can't use Abundant Step or Dimensional Door" and you're right..., kinda?
See the feat in question that actually sparked the idea isn't Dimensional Agility, it's something else. I'ts called Flickering Step.
Flickering Step (Conduit)
You can appear and disappear in the blink of an eye.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (planes) 9 ranks.
Benefit: You can use dimension door as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your ranks in Knowledge (planes). You can’t teleport a distance greater than twice your base speed in this way, and you must have both line of sight and line of effect to your destination.
You can use this feat’s benefit once per day, plus an additional time per day for every 5 ranks you have in Knowledge (planes).
Special: A [u]fighter[/u] with this feat treats Dimensional Agility and any feat that lists it as a prerequisite as though they were combat feats when selecting fighter bonus feats.
It's that Fighter bit down there at the end. Brawlers count as Fighters for qualifying for feats and for feats that have different effects if selected by a Fighter. So with Flickering Step, a Brawler can pick up the Dimensional Agility feats if I'm reading this right. Granted this might up to GM ruling but it looks sensible to me.
Now it's limit is twice my base speed so I wonder if I can use boots to increase that. Still 60 range teleport on a martial sounds pretty decent and in 3 levels(level 9) I can start using Dimensional Assault(Teleport and count as charging so I can make one attack) and by 11 I can use Dimensional Dervish to make a full attack action it sounds like?
This doesn't sound too bad actually as with being a Brawler, I can get up to 3 feats to dip into on the fly letting me skip over some.
Thoughts on this?
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The qualifying via fighter levels doesn't matter, and in any case it only applies to fighter bonus feats which you don't have. With flickering step you get dimension door as a SLA. That alone qualifies you to take the dimensional feats with your general feats.
And yes if you're not otherwise specialising it looks like a good idea.
The qualifying via fighter levels doesn't matter, and in any case it only applies to fighter bonus feats which you don't have. With flickering step you get dimension door as a SLA. That alone qualifies you to take the dimensional feats with your general feats.
And yes if you're not otherwise specialising it looks like a good idea.
That seems a bit weird. It's not like each class has "X Bonus Feats" as a class ability. They just have "Bonus Feats". I assumed this would work but I can see why it wouldn't. I plan on bringing it to my GM anyway to see if he'll let me take it so this might be moot.
And not not really specializing other than using my first couple feats to tank up some. I'm a bit worried about just what I can do vs the undead and abberations the player guide warned of so didn't really focus on Manuvers.
Really if I can just hit Knowledge Planes Rank 15, I should be good as that gives me Dimension Door 4 times a day which I think is a good amount of uses. At 4 skills per level, human skilled and Favored Class Bonus, that's 6 per level so I can start diverting some points into that.
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Hmm... Brawlers have to pick Combat feats when using martial flexibility, and dimensional agility, assault, and dervish are not combat feats. Same with Flickering Step. Now, about that second line -
Special: A fighter with this feat treats Dimensional Agility and any feat that lists it as a prerequisite as though they were combat feats when selecting fighter bonus feats.
Depending on how lenient your GM is, maybe see if that would allow you to count as being able to flex into those feats if you take Flickering Step as a regular feat, since they count as combat feats for fighters. but RAW you can't flex into those feats.
The workaround is to just take those feats and flex into the combat feats you need. but if you're not specializing in this by taking the feats, you're not able to use this tactic as a brawler.
The qualifying via fighter levels doesn't matter, and in any case it only applies to fighter bonus feats which you don't have. With flickering step you get dimension door as a SLA. That alone qualifies you to take the dimensional feats with your general feats.
And yes if you're not otherwise specialising it looks like a good idea.
That seems a bit weird. It's not like each class has "X Bonus Feats" as a class ability. They just have "Bonus Feats". I assumed this would work but I can see why it wouldn't. I plan on bringing it to my GM anyway to see if he'll let me take it so this might be moot.
I agree this didn't make much sense to me either. But I noticed this line.
These bonus feats must be ones that affect or improve her defenses or melee attacks.
If it were not for this line, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to select flickering step as a bonus combat feat. Since flickering step doesn't improve your defenses or attacks then it's not an eligible feat.
Its strange that they didn't just make flickering step a combat feat, but it's probably to prevent people from using it with things like martial flexibility and the training weapon enchant.
The qualifying via fighter levels doesn't matter, and in any case it only applies to fighter bonus feats which you don't have. With flickering step you get dimension door as a SLA. That alone qualifies you to take the dimensional feats with your general feats.
And yes if you're not otherwise specialising it looks like a good idea.
That seems a bit weird. It's not like each class has "X Bonus Feats" as a class ability. They just have "Bonus Feats". I assumed this would work but I can see why it wouldn't. I plan on bringing it to my GM anyway to see if he'll let me take it so this might be moot.
I agree this didn't make much sense to me either. But I noticed this line.
These bonus feats must be ones that affect or improve her defenses or melee attacks.If it were not for this line, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to select flickering step as a bonus combat feat. Since flickering step doesn't improve your defenses or attacks then it's not an eligible feat.
Its strange that they didn't just make flickering step a combat feat, but it's probably to prevent people from using it with things like martial flexibility and the training weapon enchant.
Derp. Forgot about that line which is weird as it was driving me nuts earlier in the brawler's career.
Right so here's how the brawler seems to be looking right now given that I can't use pick them up through bonus feats.
Level 7 Flickering Step
Level 9 Dimensional Agility
Level 11 Dimensional Assault
Level 13 Dimensional Dervish
Level 15 Possible Dimensional Savant
Meanwhile I do get 3 Combat feats during that time to shore up offense or defense. That doesn't sound too bad to me, I was just trying to see if I could get this taking off by level 11 or sooner depending.
Unless you retrain a feat at level 9+, flickering step as your level 7 feat doesn't work. 9 ranks of knowledge (planes) required remember.
Fighters' bonus feats are actually odd things in PF and you need to keep track of them separately to other bonus feats if you want to make full use of the class feature.
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Which could be useful for someone who wanted to, say, learn the dimensional feat line ASAP. Brawlers do get a similar trick with their bonus feats:
Upon reaching 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, a brawler can choose to learn a new bonus combat feat in place of a bonus combat feat she has already learned. ...
And you could at least argue that they should be able to get the dimensional feats with those once they get flickering step.
Unless you retrain a feat at level 9+, flickering step as your level 7 feat doesn't work. 9 ranks of knowledge (planes) required remember.
Fighters' bonus feats are actually odd things in PF and you need to keep track of them separately to other bonus feats if you want to make full use of the class feature.
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.Which could be useful for someone who wanted to, say, learn the dimensional feat line ASAP. Brawlers do get a similar trick with their bonus feats:
Upon reaching 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, a brawler can choose to learn a new bonus combat feat in place of a bonus combat feat she has already learned. ...And you could at least argue that they should be able to get the dimensional feats with those once they get flickering step.
Doi, forgot about "Skill Rank can't exceed Character Level/HD".
Okay that pushes it back a bit. Though your point with the brawler bonus feat might be something to try?
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If you're still interested in this type of build, because I love theorycrafting this is what I would do for this kind of Brawler. It requires a bunch of retraining but hey it works.
Human, 20 point buy
Str 16+2
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 14
Cha 7
Traits:
Dominator (Regional trait - Belkzen): +2 to demoralize with Intimidate
Reactionary (Combat): +2 Initiative
Skill ranks 4/lvl: Acrobatics, Intimidate, Kn: Planes, Perception
* indicates Brawler bonus feats
1) Power Attack
1(Human)Dirty Fighting (Retrain to Dimensional Dervish at 9)
2*) Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
3) Dodge (Retrain to Dimentional Agility at 9)
5) Combat Reflexes (Retrain to Dimensional Assault at 9)
5*) Dazzling Display
7) Cornugen Smash
8*) Shatter Defenses
9) Flickering Step
11) Signature Skill: Intimidate
11*) Dimensional Savant
Lv1-5 typical Flex feats: Improved <maneuver> or Dedicated Adversary
Lv6-9: Dragon Style+Dragon Ferocity or Dedicated Adversary (Swift action)
Lv10: Dragon Style+Dragon Ferocity+Dedicated Adversary, or Dedicated Adversary (Free action)
Lv11: Scorpion Style+Gorgon's Fist+Medusa's Wrath
Play as a typical brawler until level 9 when suddenly 2/day you can just dimensional dervish in combat. At level 11, with Shatter Defenses up you can spend a move action to flex into Medusa's Wrath for an extra two attacks, assuming the target can be affected by fear effects. With items like the Maiden's helm and constant skill investment in Intimidate, you shouldn't have a problem making targets shaken for at least one round, which (along with Shatter Defenses) is all you need to get Medusa's Wrath going for you. Tie it all together with a Cruel AoMF.
At level 11, you're at 3 attacks from BAB, +2 from Brawler's Flurry, +1 from Haste, and +2 from Medusa's Wrath. 6 of those 8 are vs a flat-footed target, ideally, and all but the first attack will have a flanking bonus too thanks to Dimensional Savant. You also force them to save to avoid being frightened thanks to Sig Skill, and they're sickened from the Cruel AoMF. Oh and if you invest in Kinsight Goggles you can use your Flickering Step from outside the other room, and since the target wouldn't have known your presence, they would be flat-footed to that first attack as well. Neat.
That actually looks pretty good Syries. The only issue at least for me is due to my current run being Carrion Crown. I'm unsure how useful Intimidate is going to be against maybe a third of the enemies(Hello mindless undead).
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That actually looks pretty good Syries. The only issue at least for me is due to my current run being Carrion Crown. I'm unsure how useful Intimidate is going to be against maybe a third of the enemies(Hello mindless undead).
Ah yeah Carrion Crown would put a damper on an intimidate build. Hm... Medusa's Wrath procs whenever you hit a target that is "dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious"
Unfortunately undead are immune to most of these effects thanks to Undead Traits, so that cuts out Unconscious, Stun, most staggering effects like Gorgon's Fist, and paralysis. Daze and Flat-footed are difficult conditions to inflict on someone without requiring a fort save or being a spellcaster.
Reading through Dirty Trick Master (I play mostly PFS and it's not legal so I wasn't familiar with the feat) it's really quite a ridiculous feat. I wouldn't be surprised if your GM straight up bans it; it's from a splat book and because it's a combat maneuver rather than a saving throw most creatures with nested immunity, like undead and constructs with Fort saves, aren't actually immune to the dazed condition. That would suggest, with Dirty Trick Master, that you can daze most creatures, including undead/constructs for a minimum of 1d4+1 rounds using pocket sand. I know I wouldn't allow that as a GM.
Now, this alternative build to make Medusa's Wrath will work on most corporeal undead, but still not super ideal:
Same stat block and everything, but these are the feats you would need:
1) Power Attack
1) EWP: Seven-Branched Sword
2*) Dirty Fighting
3) Something (retrain to Dimensional Agility at 9)
5) Something (retrain to Dimensional Assault at 9)
5*) Improved Trip
7) Something (retrain to Dimensional Dervish at 9)
8*) Greater Trip
9) Flickering Step
11) Combat Reflexes
11*) Vicious Stomp
The tactic here would be first round you set yourself up with Medusa's Wrath using Flex, and next round you dimensional dervish into combat. While you don't have Savant at this level to give yourself a flanking bonus, you do end up being able to spend your first two attacks making trip attempts. The first would be with the sword to make them flat-footed (not needed if they already are, of course), the second trip would be to actually knock them prone, procing two AoOs from you thanks to Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp. You then get the rest of your normal attacks, then two from Medusa's Wrath and one from Haste. Counting that up, that's two attacks dealing no damage (the initial two trips), your last iterative at -10, plus two AoOs, two from Flurry, 2 from Medusa's wrath, and one from haste. 10 attack rolls and 8 of them dealing damage. And your target is prone.
The build isn't foolproof, of course. It'd be up to your GM to determine if a flying creature can be made flat-footed with a trip attempt that doesn't actually trip, given that they're normally immune. Most incorporeal creatures will be immune, too. But for Carrion Crown you'll get more consistency than an intimidate build.
I will say this however. If your GM allows Dirty Trick Master cling to that but be prepared for a "no" since it frankly is a ridiculous feat.
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Hmm I just remembered, you can dip 1 lv of Cleric or Warpriest for the Repose domain/blessing (no save stagger effect).
Use Crusader Cleric and you get free Weapon Focus (at the cost of less spells that were just a bonus any way.)
That is only one round unless it is undead, and while they're featured heavily they're not the only enemies you will find in that AP. A conductive AoMF would help with that, allowing you to discharge the ability as part of a full attack. But then you're also dipping. And having to play a deity-focused character. Not a bad option but keep in mind the delays that come with dipping...
Really the reason I brought this up was to have a good work around for movement.
A fight or two ago I wasn't able to get into combat as it was on a walkway(1 square) and my ally was in combat. Best I could do was flex into ranged feats so I could shoot/throw into combat. Related, Bolas used to Trip, is that shooting into Melee?
The group is currently Brawler(Standard/nothing special), A Paladin(Ghost Hunter Archetype), Blaster Utility Sorcerer and Utility Druid. I'm unsure of their Archetypes.
Most my own play has been flexing into Dragon Style or Boar for extra damage, or some ranged feats if need be. Charge in, and start flurrying from that point, subbing in a trip if the target can be and is dangerous enough.
I'm also pretty bad at theory crafting and wanted to see if this was a good and plausible idea. If I start having trouble in the game(Like falling behind) I might pick up Syries build(Though with 25 point buy and being allowed to skip Power Attack, Combat Expertise and other feats being fused) I could probably make it even better.
But I just wanted to see if this was a dumb idea that should have stayed on paper or not. Cause the only other way to try to get this rolling is with Teleportation Mastery (Item Mastery), which lets you do the same just scaling with your Fort instead of Skill Rank.
That and the whole thing about "bonus feats" which is in part why I asked.
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Mobility while allowing a character to full attack is never a bad idea. There is a reason Pounce is considered one of the best attack actions for martial characters, and dimensional dervish is Pounce++
As I said earlier, the easiest and most consistent build would be using Dirty Trick Master if your GM lets you get away with it. But the trip build would work a lot of the time too.
Mobility while allowing a character to full attack is never a bad idea. There is a reason Pounce is considered one of the best attack actions for martial characters, and dimensional dervish is Pounce++
As I said earlier, the easiest and most consistent build would be using Dirty Trick Master if your GM lets you get away with it. But the trip build would work a lot of the time too.
I actually dislike how many people seem to fish for Pounce. My own homebrew rules tend ... well not remove it but allows one to get away with making 1 swing attacks without being completely useless. Like Vital Strike being far easier to pull off but that's more rule/homebrew.
That said, I think I figured out what I'm gonna do. I just wanna throw this past people and see if it's worth it and if I'm falling too far behind with this idea.
So I level as Brawler until level 9. At level 9 I switch to Fighter-Brawler Archetype. This allows me to get 2 feats at level 9, One for Flickering Step and the Bonus Fighter feat is Dimensional Agility. At level 10, I level Fighter again to get Bonus Feat Dimensional Assault. This also gets me Bravery which could help in Carrion Crown and also a bonus to Bullrush, Drag and Reposition(though this isn't that important)
Then at 11 I level Fighter-Brawler one more time. With the standard feat I pick up Dimensional Dervish, and from the Archetype, Close Combatant; giving me +1 on attack and +3 on damage to anything in the Close weapon group. Hello Unarmed.
For a 3 level dip I can bring this idea online at level 11 and have a flat +3 damage to offset the delayed Unarmed dice growth.
3 levels of brawler is usually 1-2 points of average damage on the unarmed strike, occasionally zero benefit. You're actually getting ahead of the game with that +3 damage. Delaying the 3 feats option on martial flexibility is the only direct cost and getting to teleport is worth that IMO.
3 levels of brawler is usually 1-2 points of average damage on the unarmed strike, occasionally zero benefit. You're actually getting ahead of the game with that +3 damage. Delaying the 3 feats option on martial flexibility is the only direct cost and getting to teleport is worth that IMO.
I'll be honest, level 3 and 7 of Brawler feel REALLY dead unless you're gearing up for Maneuvers. It's a side thing I bust out at times but not the main thing.
That's a good workaround.
Looking at this, the fighter brawler archetype makes for a REALLY nice 3 level dip, especially for what you're wanting to do.
I dove into ideas of what I want to do and this seemed like a good work around. I could take a more standard pick of Master of Many Styles but I like this idea more.
Thanks guys. I'm not that big on optimizing but on the other hand if this was a pretty big waste, I wasn't gonna do it.