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I have recently looked at the sample settlements in the Pact Worlds book and it seems to be that the population numbers in Starfinder are universally low, sometimes comically so.
For example Zo the "Hub of spaceflight" of Triaxus has a population of 19.000 while the largest city on Castroval has not even a million inhabitants.
Thats a better village and a medium sized city. For comparison, Singapore has a population of 5 million and Dubai one of 3 million.
Is it really intended that nearly all places in the Pact Worlds have a population density of Kansas or are the writers still stuck thinking in (pseudo)medieval numbers?
Also, if you assume sensible population numbers (and even if you don't and take low numbers for everyone), what would that mean for the overall demographics especially in relation of the core races?
Normally humans are the most populous race but in Starfinder they would be rather rare considering that their main planet vanished (unless you also count the Aeon Empire). All thats left for them is one barely habitable dustbowl they share with 3 other sentient races and a space station. There are probably not even a billion or even 100 million humans in the system.
From the way it looks to me there are probably more Elves and even Dragonkin in the Pact System than humans.
Kasatha would be downright rare with the population of a single colony ship spread over the whole system. Unless there has been an undocumented, huge immigration from their home system to the Pact Worlds, despite them having failed to actually colonized anything, there are probably not even a million of them there.
From the core races the only really populous would be Androids (mass produced for some time), Lashunta (Have their own continent on a habitable world, although the population example is extra low balled) and Vesk (although most of them in the Veskarium, how many are in the Pact Worlds is unknown)
Funnily enough though the most populous races should be the NPC/Alien Archive races. Verthani would at least match, if not surpass the Lashunta population and Ryphorians would be the most numerous humanoids as they seem to be the only ones who have a whole habitable planet for (nearly) themselves, even if a third of them have to live under the claw of dragons. Even with the long seasons, Triaxus would support billions of inhabitants. And when you take the demographic of Zo as normal, one third of those billions would be Dragonkin, making them more populous than many core races. Thats even true when they only make up 10% of the population and not 30%.
But even Ryphorians would be outmatched by Anacite and Barathu.
Has there been an official word on the population and demographics and on the extremely low numbers in the Pact Worlds book? And if not do you follow those numbers which mean that even the greatest cities on the planets are just large towns or do you increase the population numbers to "make sense" for advanced societies?
And if yes, how does the demographic in your setting look like? Who are the majorities and who the minorities? Do you elevate humans back to be the most numerous default to match Pathfinder or is someone else the "face" of the Pact Worlds?
I, too, generally think that some of the population numbers are quite low. It's never been something that Paizo pays too much attention to, even in Pathfinder, so I tend to take them with a certain amount of Handwavium.
That said, while the setting doesn't really portray it this way, this is how I've chosen to interpret things.
The core races represent the races most interested in space travel, colonization, and exploration. Other races may be more populous, but they are content living within their planetary system for the vast majority of those races/species.
As for looking at some of the numbers, yeah, some things seem out of whack. The assessed degree of whack is a matter of personal taste. Here are a few examples/comparisons:
1. Castrovel is less populated than expected because so much of the planet remains jungle. The elves are already a slow-to-reproduce species. Formians are short-lived.
2. Verthani do seem underrepresented. Despite being tidally-locked, Verces appears to be one of the most densely populated and relatively stable planets in the Pact Worlds. Cuvacara alone has 30 million inhabitants; 16.5M are Verthani. And that's just in one city!
3. Poor little Absalom Station only has 980,000 humans. Cuvacara has 3 million humans. Arl has almost 7 million humans. Yet, Absalom Station is portrayed as the center of human society. This only makes sense if Absalom Station is the primary place where humans can significantly wield power.
4. And don't get me started on the Kasatha. Yes, their homeworld is accessible now, but a single ark ship seems unlikely to have enough inhabitants to constitute a core race -- unless we're referring to propensity to be a starfaring race of explorers, colonists, etc.
The Pact Worlds are interesting and I believe they are structured as they are so that the efforts of a group of space vagabonds is more easily felt. However, I do think that since the Races chapter of the SFCRB explicitly cites the core races as being "so common as to be ubiquitous" the Pact Worlds setting would have done a better job of reflecting that.
Paizo always favors story over statistics, though, so I wouldn't expect much in the way of official changes or retcons. If the numbers bother you, your best bet is to change the numbers in your campaign.
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BPorter wrote: 3. Poor little Absalom Station only has 980,000 humans. Cuvacara has 3 million humans. Arl has almost 7 million humans. Yet, Absalom Station is portrayed as the center of human society. This only makes sense if Absalom Station is the primary place where humans can significantly wield power.
And dont forget Striving. That Acanite city has 152 million inhabitans, 13% of it human which means just short of 20 million, making it by far the largest human community in the system.
Yet I doubt that the intention was to make Aballon the center of humanity and they just didnt calculate things through.
It really makes me wonder how those places are supposed to look like. Even the Pact World book doesn't really give me any information about the actual day to day life and actual state of development of a planet. Apparently it needs a big adventure to get some information about that.
Castrovel is in a Dead Sun adventure, right? I have to read that when I get the chance. Triaxus hasn't appeared in an AP yet as far as I am aware. I wonder if it will be as rural as the Zo entry makes it look like or if it approaches an European population density (from the high level description it seems to be the most likely to do so from all planets imo) and what that means to the overal population numbers of Ryphorians, Dragonkin and true dragons.
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In general, I don't find this to be a problem. However, I do think that both Absalom Station and the Idari should have an extra zero added to both their size and population.
Metaphysician wrote: In general, I don't find this to be a problem. However, I do think that both Absalom Station and the Idari should have an extra zero added to both their size and population. Definitely agree, and I wish the Idari write up had mentioned it having lots of empty sections from the original populace that has since scattered across the Pact Worlds and beyond.
How many people would realistically fit into a 2 mile cylinder? Pact Worlds says the surface area is 4 square miles. No idea how much sense this makes mathematically.
From the description of the Idari it doesn't sound like the inside being heavily urbanized either. On the map it looks like half the area being agricultural or recreational.
Even when you assume Hong Kong style population densities that leaves space for about 250.000 - 300.000 people.
A lot more than the 40.000 from the book, but still tiny compared to other core and extended races.
Yeah, they done goofed.
For the most part it doesn't come up as very meaningful, so I don't worry about it too much.
This would be why I say they should be both bigger *and* more populous. For a generation ship intended to evacuate a good chunk of planetary population, a 20 mile long cylinder would make a lot more thematic sense. Particularly since the clear intent in the setting history was for the Idari's arrival and potential hostility to be a serious thing, and not a joke.
Metaphysician wrote: This would be why I say they should be both bigger *and* more populous. For a generation ship intended to evacuate a good chunk of planetary population, a 20 mile long cylinder would make a lot more thematic sense. Particularly since the clear intent in the setting history was for the Idari's arrival and potential hostility to be a serious thing, and not a joke. Yeah, the history write up in the core book suggests the Idari seriously thought they could succeed at an invasion and forceful colonization of a planet allied with other parts of the system. The reality is...no.
Xenocrat wrote: Metaphysician wrote: This would be why I say they should be both bigger *and* more populous. For a generation ship intended to evacuate a good chunk of planetary population, a 20 mile long cylinder would make a lot more thematic sense. Particularly since the clear intent in the setting history was for the Idari's arrival and potential hostility to be a serious thing, and not a joke. Yeah, the history write up in the core book suggests the Idari seriously thought they could succeed at an invasion and forceful colonization of a planet allied with other parts of the system. The reality is...no. Yep. Whereas if the thing were 20 miles long with the kind of tech and power level that entails, plus the much larger population ( something more on the order of millions ). . . well, it still wouldn't have actually worked. But it at least would have been a plausible threat.
Whereas the "canon" Idari isn't really big enough for me to buy a forcible invasion and colonization, unless it were against a primitive planet lacking meaningful space travel.
Well, they did call off the invasion once they got there and realized it wasn't going to work out well for them.
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So based on guessed population sizes and the willingness of engaging in spaceflight, how would a generic but representative space bar in the pact world system look like in your campaign?
Well, it would definitely have a nautical theme, because every race loves stories about the Golden Age of Piracy.
I’d say at least 10 bathrooms, based on male/female/other and size of the users.
Shapeshifters wouldn’t be outright banned, but we’d need something to either reveal or force their real self, just to cut down on “I thought that was my boyfriend but it was a shapeshifter” police matters.
Food may or may not be served. Nobody should be excluded, but my cook doesn’t want to prepare souls of the damned in a nice cherry glaze, served over a browned mountain eel fetus.
You’d probably want your chairs and tables over-engineered, to cut down on drunk Trox breaking all your stuff.
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Ixal wrote: BPorter wrote: 3. Poor little Absalom Station only has 980,000 humans. Cuvacara has 3 million humans. Arl has almost 7 million humans. Yet, Absalom Station is portrayed as the center of human society. This only makes sense if Absalom Station is the primary place where humans can significantly wield power.
And dont forget Striving. That Acanite city has 152 million inhabitans, 13% of it human which means just short of 20 million, making it by far the largest human community in the system.
Yet I doubt that the intention was to make Aballon the center of humanity and they just didnt calculate things through.
It really makes me wonder how those places are supposed to look like. Even the Pact World book doesn't really give me any information about the actual day to day life and actual state of development of a planet. Apparently it needs a big adventure to get some information about that.
Castrovel is in a Dead Sun adventure, right? I have to read that when I get the chance. Triaxus hasn't appeared in an AP yet as far as I am aware. I wonder if it will be as rural as the Zo entry makes it look like or if it approaches an European population density (from the high level description it seems to be the most likely to do so from all planets imo) and what that means to the overal population numbers of Ryphorians, Dragonkin and true dragons. A little real world numbers that help this make more sense, but about thirty three million people claim Irish descent in america. This compares with the 6.7 million people that actually populate Ireland. Does that make America the center of Irish culture?
-Beta
Ixal wrote: So based on guessed population sizes and the willingness of engaging in spaceflight, how would a generic but representative space bar in the pact world system look like in your campaign? This is a great question!
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Greydoch wrote:
A little real world numbers that help this make more sense, but about thirty three million people claim Irish descent in america. This compares with the 6.7 million people that actually populate Ireland. Does that make America the center of Irish culture?
-Beta
No, everyone knows London is the center of Irish culture.
I suspect when they say "human culture" what they mean is "Golarion-descendant human culture".
Because actual human culture in the pact worlds would be hylki culture.
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Greydoch wrote:
A little real world numbers that help this make more sense, but about thirty three million people claim Irish descent in america. This compares with the 6.7 million people that actually populate Ireland. Does that make America the center of Irish culture?
-Beta
When you look at the US during St. Patricks day it might very well be. Not to mention that just being of Irish descent doesn't mean that you are still Irish. But you can't really stop being a human.
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Ixal wrote: Greydoch wrote:
A little real world numbers that help this make more sense, but about thirty three million people claim Irish descent in america. This compares with the 6.7 million people that actually populate Ireland. Does that make America the center of Irish culture?
-Beta
When you look at the US during St. Patricks day it might very well be. Not to mention that just being of Irish descent doesn't mean that you are still Irish. But you can't really stop being a human. Caligni, Munavri, and Gillmen would like to have a word with you about that last assertion.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ixal wrote: And dont forget Striving. That Acanite city has 152 million inhabitans, 13% of it human which means just short of 20 million, making it by far the largest human community in the system.
Yet I doubt that the intention was to make Aballon the center of humanity and they just didnt calculate things through.
Anacite battery farms require extremely large crop fields to be effective. :P
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Ixal wrote: Greydoch wrote:
A little real world numbers that help this make more sense, but about thirty three million people claim Irish descent in america. This compares with the 6.7 million people that actually populate Ireland. Does that make America the center of Irish culture?
-Beta
When you look at the US during St. Patricks day it might very well be. Not to mention that just being of Irish descent doesn't mean that you are still Irish. But you can't really stop being a human. The Augmented: "Yes you can!"
I think it's a question of science-fantasy. Starwars doesn't have too many huge cities in the films. This gives things a more cowboy/ fantasy adventure vibe. But then there are planets like Verces and Aballon...
As far as common races go I think it's just that they're everywhere. Yeah, the densest places are the various races homeworlds and they don't outnumber other non-common races, but verthani and ryphorians don't live on Eox or Castroval in significant numbers, humans and ysoki do.
Ixal wrote: Greydoch wrote:
A little real world numbers that help this make more sense, but about thirty three million people claim Irish descent in america. This compares with the 6.7 million people that actually populate Ireland. Does that make America the center of Irish culture?
-Beta
When you look at the US during St. Patricks day it might very well be. Not to mention that just being of Irish descent doesn't mean that you are still Irish. But you can't really stop being a human. On St Patrick's day you're Irish by blood alcohol content rather than blood anyway...
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Paizo never gets the numbers 'right'
but it's not important. so whatever.
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