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I am confused by the Acrobatics section on flying (edited for brevity, but linked for entirety):
Fly
Generally, you need to attempt an Acrobatics check while flying only if you attempt a difficult maneuver. Usually, these checks are attempted as part of a move action while flying.The following situations require Acrobatics checks and have consequences for failure.
Hover
Safe flight typically requires momentum. If you wish to stay in place, or hover, while flying, you must attempt an Acrobatics check as a move action. If you fail, you fall. If you have clumsy maneuverability, you cannot hover at all. If you have perfect maneuverability, you can hover automatically without attempting a check, though you can hover as a swift action instead of a move action if you succeed at an Acrobatics check (there is no penalty for failure).
As far as I can tell, a "check" is the actual rolling of the dice. If you have perfect maneuverability, you can hover automatically without attempting a "check", but this still requires the expenditure of a move action, right?
If the answer to that question is "yes", then you could presumably only full attack while flying under the effects of haste or something similar, right?
If the answer to that question is "no", and you can forgo the move action requirement entirely, what is the purpose of the statement "you can hover as a swift action instead of a move action"?
All of this leads me to thinking you can never full attack while flying. I'm fine if that's the way Starfinder works, but I just want to be sure.
Without this, barathu need a bucket to land in or they can't full attack at all.
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Furthermore, the Additional Movement Types section seems to confirm this: "If you have perfect maneuverability, you do not have to attempt an Acrobatics check to use the avoid falling damage or hover options; you automatically succeed at these options (unless you are unconscious), though you can still attempt an Acrobatics check to hover as a swift action instead of a move action".
Sure, hover usually takes a move action that auto-succeeds if you have perfect maneuverability.
But, those with perfect maneuverability can use a Swift action to hover, which still allows them to full attack.
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Yikes.
I never saw that. That's a pretty big change from Pathfinder to Starfinder and I didn't know that existed.
Thanks!
(Now I can house-rule that right into non-existence, which is pretty much what I've been unknowingly doing all along).
Furthermore, the Additional Movement Types section seems to confirm this: "If you have perfect maneuverability, you do not have to attempt an Acrobatics check to use the avoid falling damage or hover options; you automatically succeed at these options (unless you are unconscious), though you can still attempt an Acrobatics check to hover as a swift action instead of a move action".
*backfootheadscratch and confused dog headtilt*
Why would you attempt to hover as a swift action if you don't have to attempt an acrobatics check to hover?
That sentence is it's own contradiction.
Yep, I learned about this flying rule while prepping Dead Suns Book 2. It's clear cut that based on Nefreet's quote above that even for perfect fliers, if you automatically succeed at the hover it's still a move action (unless you want to do it as a swift). Its a gigantic nerf for flying as a strategy!
I think some of the writers for monsters are not aware of it though, as encounters and creatures are not designed accordingly.
Personally, I think this rule makes flying so unappealing that I'd really like Paizo to change it.
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Furthermore, the Additional Movement Types section seems to confirm this: "If you have perfect maneuverability, you do not have to attempt an Acrobatics check to use the avoid falling damage or hover options; you automatically succeed at these options (unless you are unconscious), though you can still attempt an Acrobatics check to hover as a swift action instead of a move action".*backfootheadscratch and confused dog headtilt*
Why would you attempt to hover as a swift action if you don't have to attempt an acrobatics check to hover?
That sentence is it's own contradiction.
It's a choice between no-check hover as a move action and check-to-hover as a swift action.
It seems clear that Hover takes a Move action for everyone that can hover. A check will be required.
If you have Perfect maneuverability, you don't need to roll the check but it's still a Move action. However, in this case, you can optionally hover with a Swift action but doing so requires the usual check (which you only avoid if you use a Move action, not a Swift action).
If you have Perfect maneuverability want to actually use a move action for something useful like drawing a weapon or opening a door or picking something up or any other kind of Move action while hovering AND attacking, then you would choose to use your Swift action to hover, roll the check, and now you can use a Move action and a Standard action while hovering.
It's a choice between no-check hover as a move action and check-to-hover as a swift action.Furthermore, the Additional Movement Types section seems to confirm this: "If you have perfect maneuverability, you do not have to attempt an Acrobatics check to use the avoid falling damage or hover options; you automatically succeed at these options (unless you are unconscious), though you can still attempt an Acrobatics check to hover as a swift action instead of a move action".*backfootheadscratch and confused dog headtilt*
Why would you attempt to hover as a swift action if you don't have to attempt an acrobatics check to hover?
That sentence is it's own contradiction.
ahh okay that would make sense.
Related: I think you can full attack while flying, as a 5+ Hit-and-run Soldier. Can't do it while hovering, but if you keep moving...
Yep, this is how we applied the rules for my late, lamented barathu who made it close to the end of Book 3 before meeting a cruel, cruel fate. If he was flying and tried a full attack, he'd always land prone on the ground like a deflated balloon.
Trick attacking while flying works great for an operative with uncanny mobility
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Crap, I don't think I ever noticed the bit about swift actions stopping a full attack.
That's significant.
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Wasn't there a debate not too long ago about the attack capabilities of a hover drone in flight?
I kinda figured all of this was relatively common knowledge on the forums on account of that discussion.
I vaguely recall something like that RD, but I didn't remember it until you mentioned it.
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I kinda figured all of this was relatively common knowledge on the forums on account of that discussion.
I couldn't find that this specific question had been posted.
Then again I'm not active in the General Discussion Forum and a lot of rules questions are discussed over there.
But, locally, I don't think our Society playerbase knows this. And, actually, mentioning the hover drone, I don't think anyone plays Quig this way, either.
I couldn't find that this specific question had been posted.
It's possible I could be misremembering what was said in the discussion.
That discussion was about drones' capability to attack in flight (or lack thereof). If I'm wrong, and your question was never addressed anywhere in that discussion, then I would be quite surprised as it involved a lot of players (and even a few developers) looking at the rules with a microscope. Everyone missing the limitation discussed in this thread altogether seems rather unlikely to me.
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Is THIS that thread? No Developers, but it was started in September 2017 and had over a hundred posts.
I guess since I was specifically looking for posts with "full attack", that didn't come across on my radar, but since everyone in there recognizes the need to move it also answers my initial question.
Yeah, that looks like the one. There may have been a few spinoff or satellite threads too.
Why is it so unimaginable that the intended result is "Yes, you actually do have to land if you want to full attack"?
In the case of barathu it's a living derigible that spends all of its time effortlessly floating in the air. From a planet that doesn't even HAVE ground. Yet it needs to land to full attack. That makes sense for someone with wings or a jetpack. Floaty barathu? Not so much
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Why is it so unimaginable that the intended result is "Yes, you actually do have to land if you want to full attack"?In the case of barathu it's a living derigible that spends all of its time effortlessly floating in the air. From a planet that doesn't even HAVE ground. Yet it needs to land to full attack. That makes sense for someone with wings or a jetpack. Floaty barathu? Not so much
It's just as true for an air elemental. Neither the rules of physics nor the rights of sentient creatures entitle you to a full attack just because you're airborne. Just buy some Force Soles Mk 2 or accept that kiting is the way thing are meant to be in aerial combat.
Why is it so unimaginable that the intended result is "Yes, you actually do have to land if you want to full attack"?In the case of barathu it's a living derigible that spends all of its time effortlessly floating in the air. From a planet that doesn't even HAVE ground. Yet it needs to land to full attack. That makes sense for someone with wings or a jetpack. Floaty barathu? Not so much
On the other hand, barathu have average maneuverability, so even if perfect let you hover for free, they wouldn't be able to.
*Smashes FAQ button over and over with much vigor*
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I'm satisfied with the answer as we've worked through it.
I initially asked the question because most people I've encountered don't run flying that way. I've seen GMs allow hover drones full attacks, players tell me as a GM that they can full attack, and seen plenty of other GMs running flying creatures with full attacks.
Honestly, since flight was such a must have tactic in Pathfinder, it's refreshing to know it's not as important in Starfinder.
Yeah, honestly I like it better.
Perhaps certain creatures deserve a special ability to hover as a free action, but that's how I'd handle it.
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Why is it so unimaginable that the intended result is "Yes, you actually do have to land if you want to full attack"?In the case of barathu it's a living derigible that spends all of its time effortlessly floating in the air. From a planet that doesn't even HAVE ground. Yet it needs to land to full attack. That makes sense for someone with wings or a jetpack. Floaty barathu? Not so much
maybe floaty barathu are simply incapable of making two attacks in a round?
i mean... it seems like the rules imply that.
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That probably isn't allowed by the rules, else you're effectively giving most people (anyone without perfect maneuverability) a free move action.
There are ways to fly and get a full attack. Haste is the easiest. Being a hit and run soldier.
It's just not an easy thing to do like it was in Pathfinder.
Do you have a source for that at all?
Because as far as I'm aware, there aren't any computers you can purchase to make attacks for you. I'm not saying it isn't true, but I haven't seen any such rules for it.
Do you have a source for that at all?
Because as far as I'm aware, there aren't any computers you can purchase to make attacks for you. I'm not saying it isn't true, but I haven't seen any such rules for it.
It also gets really wierd because quigs hover drone can't fly and attack at all.
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Is his drone not a hover drone?
Hover drones have perfect maneuverability and can hover as a move action or swift.
It's only when you add fly level 1 to a non-hover drone that they have the problem (you have to add 2 upgrades of fly to be able to fly indefinitely).
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I think you could link a computer interface. This would allow it to make the move action acrobatics check, I think. Similarly, I am pretty sure that you can link a computer to a non-analog gun, therefore allowing it to fire aforementioned gun. The action economy however is that you'd have to operate the computer to tell it to fire the gun. This would basically be using a standard action regardless. The only way to get a free shot would be to have an exocortex fire a gun via a linked computer. In these cases you could full attack and your exocortex could fire a gun. That all said, having your exocortex fire a gun would lose you (as the mechanic) the combat tracking.
You could also have a computer interface be able to fire a gun in the same manner, however the aforementioned gun would have to be mechanically attached to the armor in some way.
According to the FAQ they don't have perfect manueverability until they select the fly upgrade a second time.
I believe that, back in an older thread, it was found that drones also don't have swift actions until the mechanic donates theirs, as part of donating their move action.
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Hover drones start with the fly mod twice.
I hope y'all don't mind me putting forth an extra credit question.
What about a mechanic riding a drone that flies?
The specific case is a stelliferas(tiny) mechanic riding a hover drone. After reading the consensus here, my take is that the mechanic could full attack while the drone uses its action to move/hover. The drone could also full attack through master control while the player moves/hovers.
Then there's the outlier case of using a pet carrier armor mod instead of the riding saddle to ride inside of the drone. The stellifaras can't attack now and it can't use its move action to ride the drone. The only option would be to use master control to give the drone a standard, move, and swift action, just like any other flyer which can't full attack. That seems like a pretty bad idea now that I have it written out.
Does this sound about right?
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I hope y'all don't mind me putting forth an extra credit question.
What about a mechanic riding a drone that flies?
The specific case is a stelliferas(tiny) mechanic riding a hover drone. After reading the consensus here, my take is that the mechanic could full attack while the drone uses its action to move/hover. The drone could also full attack through master control while the player moves/hovers.
Then there's the outlier case of using a pet carrier armor mod instead of the riding saddle to ride inside of the drone. The stellifaras can't attack now and it can't use its move action to ride the drone. The only option would be to use master control to give the drone a standard, move, and swift action, just like any other flyer which can't full attack. That seems like a pretty bad idea now that I have it written out.
Does this sound about right?
Fighting from a combat trained mount is apparently also a swift action. Preventing the full attack while riding a hover drone...
I'm not entirely certain how your character that is able to ride a hover drone, can also hold the hover drone up so it can full attack, but I don't believe the drone is 'riding' you as a mount in combat, so maybe?
The pet carrier sounds more like a specific situation thing than a standard combat tactic.
If you want to full attack in the air, you're going to need mk 2 force soles. Level 8, 10,700 Cr.
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I hope y'all don't mind me putting forth an extra credit question.
What about a mechanic riding a drone that flies?
The specific case is a stelliferas(tiny) mechanic riding a hover drone. After reading the consensus here, my take is that the mechanic could full attack while the drone uses its action to move/hover. The drone could also full attack through master control while the player moves/hovers.
Then there's the outlier case of using a pet carrier armor mod instead of the riding saddle to ride inside of the drone. The stellifaras can't attack now and it can't use its move action to ride the drone. The only option would be to use master control to give the drone a standard, move, and swift action, just like any other flyer which can't full attack. That seems like a pretty bad idea now that I have it written out.
Does this sound about right?
Nope!
Flying creatures require spending a move action or swift action to stay in the air (no matter what) so unless you have a method of getting an extra move or swift action you can never full attack while flying.
So in the case of your selliferas mechanic riding his drone you're fine. The mechanic can full attack and the drone spends their move action to move or hover.
The drone can never full attack while flying.
Master Control (Ex) 1st Level
As a move action, you can directly control your drone. This allows the drone to take both a move action and any standard action this turn (one from your control, and one from its limited AI). If you also take a swift action, your drone can take a swift action as well, or it can combine its actions into a full action. Your drone must be able to see or hear you, or be within range of your custom rig, for you to directly control your drone
While Master Control can give them a full round worth of actions, full round actions require spending your standard, move, and swift actions. Which is a significant change from Pathfinder.
Full Action
A full action consumes all your effort during your turn, meaning if you choose to take a full action, you can’t take any other standard, move, or swift actions that turn. The most common full action is the full attack
So no matter what you do, unless you get an extra move or swift (like via haste) you cannot full attack while flying.
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This is all well and good but I keep coming back to the Barathu and any other future PC race that does not have a natural land speed. In these cases I find it highly improbable that they would keep a PC race from being able to attack seeing as that race as no choice but to fly at all times because it lacks a land speed. Just like they hand wave these races in regards to armor, holding weapons, augmentations and cyberware I would imagine this rule would follow suite as well.
There's nothing keeping a Barathu from landing and staying put when it wants to full attack, just like anything else with a fly speed has to. Having a fly rather than a land speed actually imposes zero problems and is pure upside unless there's wind.
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This is all well and good but I keep coming back to the Barathu and any other future PC race that does not have a natural land speed. In these cases I find it highly improbable that they would keep a PC race from being able to attack seeing as that race as no choice but to fly at all times because it lacks a land speed. Just like they hand wave these races in regards to armor, holding weapons, augmentations and cyberware I would imagine this rule would follow suite as well.
I wouldn't.
If they want to full attack they can land like Xenocrat says. The only detriment is that they can't stay in the air out of reach of other creatures if they want to full attack. It's a fair trade in my book. Either land at the end of your previous turn if you want to take a full action on the next round (such as a full attack) or you accept that in order to stay flying you are limited to a single attack each round.
There is no problem here at all, except that flying isn't as good as it used to be in Pathfinder, and personally I consider that a feature not a bug.