bertox200 |
Hi everyone,
My group have problems about throw weapons and specifically:
Can a throw melee weapon use feats for ranged weapons? for example is a dagger (a melee weapon but also a throw weapon) considered a melee weapon if it is used in melee and is it considered a ranged weapon if it is thrown (and if so can I apply feat like point-blank and precise shot? And what about rapid shot and deadly aim)?
Claxon |
Weapons that would otherwise be melee with a range increment are thrown weapons (so a melee weapon with the throwing enchant becomes a thrown weapon) and thrown weapons count as melee when appropriate (not all thrown weapons can be used in melee) and also a ranged thrown weapons when used appropriately.
Which is a very confusing way of saying, as long as your not using the weapon as an improvised throwing weapon, it will probably work for any ranged feats. But you would have to review the wording carefully to make sure.
Point blank shot and precise shot will definitely apply to any thrown weapon attacks, as will rapid shot and deadly aim.
BENSLAYER |
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I cannot find anything stating that Melee Thrown Weapons are also Ranged when Thrown, in fact I find the opposite:
Range 10 ft.; Type P or S; Special —
Weapon Groups Blades, Light; Thrown; Tribal
Range 30 ft.; Type P; Special — Category Ranged; Proficiency Simple
Weapon Groups Spears; Thrown
Description
A javelin is a thin throwing spear. Since it is not designed for melee, you are treated as nonproficient with it and take a –4 penalty on attack rolls if you use a javelin as a melee weapon.
A Dagger is a Light Melee Weapon that is also a Thrown Weapon. By definition a Ranged Weapon is not effective as a Melee Weapon, so a Dagger is not also a Ranged Weapon. Ranged Weapons are always Thrown or Projectile Weapons, however this does not always mean that all Thrown or Projectile Weapons are automatically Ranged. The Javelin entry (on the same page) evens provides an example of a Ranged/Thrown Weapon that can technically act as a Melee Weapon - it is used as an Improvised Weapon and as such is not effective in Melee.
That is not to say that I am not missing something, yet going by what I have seen so far in the Core Rulebook (and cross-referencing with Ultimate Equipment), Melee/Thrown cannot be Ranged Weapons, (despite having a Range increment). This is how I have been playing it, so if there are rules out there that I have missed I too would not mind being linked so as to update my notes.
Claxon |
You're taking a very general rule out of context Benslayer.
And also ignore something right after you bolded portion, where it says "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee". Define "effective in melee"? The game doesn't. It just wrote a very generic statement to give an idea of what melee weapons vs ranged weapons are.
Thrown weapons often (usually) bridge the gap between them.
Claxon |
Ranged Attacks
With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is 10 range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.
Here's a rules snippet that specifically refers to thrown weapons as ranged attacks and defines their maximum range.
blahpers |
Yes, you can use ranged weapon feats such as Point-Blank Shot with thrown melee weapons, even those that aren't designed for throwing. Even an improvised throwing weapon will work for ranged feats so long as they don't require selecting a specific weapon--it's still being used as a ranged weapon, so it gets all the baggage associated with ranged weapon attacks, including bonuses from feats and penalties from things like cover and range increment.
MrCharisma |
Can a throw melee weapon use feats for ranged weapons?
Yes.
Don't worry about the weapon, worry about the attack. If you're attacking at range you can use the ranged-attack feats (point blank shot, precise shot, etc). If you're attacking in melee you can use melee-attack feats (Power Attack, Wirlwind Attack, etc).
Some feats will work with either Ranged or Melee attacks (Two Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, etc), and some will depend on what you're holding between turns (Combat Reflexes, Disruptive, etc).
There are also some that are specifically for thrown weapons (Distance Thrower, Charging Hurler, etc).
A character could not make use of Power Attack and Deadly Aim in the same attack, but they could make use of both in the same turn on different attacks (Hit an enemy in melee with one attack, then throw a weapon at an enemy at range with another attack).