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Damage/round formula: h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb)
d = Normal damage. This is any damage that happens any time you hit.
s = Damage which isn't multiplied on a crit. "s" stands for sneak attack, but this includes elemental/alignment properties on weapons, manyshot damage, and so on.
t = Chance to roll a threat. This is the threat range of your weapon or your chance to hit, whichever is lower.
f = This is your chance to confirm a threat. Most of the time, this is equal to h. If you have Critical Focus, it's (h+.2) or .95, whichever is higher. If you auto-confirm crits, as with a level 20 fighter or Bless Weapon, this is 1.
c = This is the number of bonus multiples you get from a crit. A 2x crit weapon is 1, a 3x crit weapon is 2, etc.
-- Remember to subtract one from your crit multiplier, or your damage will be over-done in the formula!
b = This is elemental burst damage, such as from fiery burst weapons and thundering. Such enhancements self-multiply based on your crit multiplier; if they don't, then they're added to r and not b.
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(taken from this DPR thread)
Alright, 8th level with Full BAB, 18 Str and most definitely Power Attack. Your attack routine should look like this:
+10/+10/+4 (1d10+15, 20/x3) +1d6 Frost damage, +2d10 on Frost on Crit.
The average CR 8 foe has an Armor Class of 21, which means your attacks have a 50%, 50% and 25% chance of hitting your foe.
1st & 2nd attack damage
0.5(20.5 + 3.5Frost) + 0.5*0.05(41 + 11Frost) = 13.3 (1.3 from crits)
3rd attack damage
0.25(20.5 + 3.5Frost) + 0.25*0.05(41 + 11Frost) = 6.65 (0.65 from crits)
So you average damage per round is 13.3 (x2) + 6.65, which is 33.25 . If you attack a favored enemy, this increases significantly.
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If you placed the Keen enchantment on your Halberd, your DPR would increase by 3.25 points of damage. If you instead made it a +2 weapon, your DPR would increase by ca 5.45 point of damage.
Generally speaking, keen is usually less valuable than (or at best roughly even to) a +1 on attack rolls and damage, even when factoring in the added damage from a burst; and burst, because of how common energy resistance is at higher levels, is less valuable than holy (assuming a typical campaign where most foes are evil) or possibly even impact (if there is a ready source of size increases, such as enlarge, giant form, or righteous might). The exception is for the 18-20/x2, 19-20/x3, and x4 critical weapons.
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@Wonderstell: I have a question for the DPR calculator, too! I'd like to know what is the standard mechanism for calculating AoOs for DPR calculator purposed. Specifically, I'm curious if there's an agreed-upon way to calculate the trade-off between reach and non-reach two handed weapons. I understand this is tough, because quantity of AoOs varies so much between tables.
For example, how might one compare DPR with the halberd vs DPR with a reach weapon, like a glaive? How much greater is the estimated DPR of the glaive, counting likely AoOs, as compared to a halberd, with identical bonuses? How do we calculate this? Will I find this info somewhere in that linked DPR thread? Thanks!!!
I don't mean to hijack the OP's post and am perfectly happy to take this question elsewhere, if the OP prefers.
I have an 8th level switch hitter ranger with a 18 strength that just acquired a +1 halberd with icy burst and speed enchants
* What is your ranger's Combat Style, and feat choices so far? What are your stats?
By "acquired", did you buy this, or was it picked off a treasure pile?
On a related note this is the first pathfinder campaign for the DM and myself can the keen enchant be added to the halberd?Yes, but a halberd is a 20x3 weapon, which means you'll crit so rarely with it in situations where it'll make a difference that I'd consider other enhancements instead.
If I understand enchanting I cant go above +10. Halberd is +1 icy is +2 and speed is +3 for a total of 6. Keen is +1 so I can do it correct?
The cost to upgrade a +6 weapon to +7 is 26,000gp (for 98,000gp in a +7 chopper) -- and standard WBL for an 8th-level PC is 33,000gp?
Your GM is spoiling you...kinda. (This polearm would be a lot, lot scarier as a +1/Fortuitous/Brilliant Energy fauchard coming with an opalescent white pyramid ioun to turn it on.)
I mean, a +6 weapon retails for for 72,000 GP. WBL for an 8th level character is 33,000. So the sell price of this weapon is slightly less than "what you should be worth" at this point.
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+10/+10/+4 (1d10+15, 20/x3) +1d6 Frost damage, +2d10 on Frost on Crit.
Forgot about the enhancement bonus to damage, so it should have been 1d10+16. Aaaand that +4 should obviously be a +5 (used the right % in the calculations so no worries).
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You have cd+cb C is set to 2 because the critical multiplier is 3, why is c 1 less then the critical multiplier?
using your example H is set to 50%,but doesn't that include rolling a natural 20? I get a crit 2.5% so should h=47.5% since 47.5+2.5=50?
You deal 300% damage on a critical hit with a Halberd. The first 100% is damage you would already have gotten as part of a hit, and has been calculated in the first part of the equation: h(d+s)
That's why C is 2, because the second half of the equation, ft(cd+cb), only calculates the extra damage from critical hits.
For the same reason, H should be 50% no matter what chance you have of scoring a critical hit. And since you don't have Critical Focus, your F is equal to H.
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I have a question for the DPR calculator, too! I'd like to know what is the standard mechanism for calculating AoOs for DPR calculator purposed. Specifically, I'm curious if there's an agreed-upon way to calculate the trade-off between reach and non-reach two handed weapons. I understand this is tough, because quantity of AoOs varies so much between tables.
For example, how might one compare DPR with the halberd vs DPR with a reach weapon, like a glaive? How much greater is the estimated DPR of the glaive, counting likely AoOs, as compared to a halberd, with identical bonuses? How do we calculate this? Will I find this info somewhere in that linked DPR thread? Thanks!!!
As for the DPR thread, there is a built-in opportunity for reach builds to get at least one AoO from movement when calculating their DPR. But as there is just one opponent, single-target builds have the advantage.
If you want to estimate the damage for a reach build, then I'd first calculate the average damage for a full-attack and the average damage for one AoO. After that, it's guesswork to decide how many AoOs you'll get per round.
But a couple of common occurrences to consider is larger opponents, difficult terrain/the doughnut effect, and how many AoOs you'll get after the first round when enemies have approached.
For example, my current character uses the Double-Chained Kama and a wand of Long Arm to out-reach large-tall opponents. If enemies are within my threatened area, I can switch the grip and attack them in close quarters, while clever use of Punishing Kick and 5-foot steps forces engaged enemies to provoke AoOs again if they want to attack me.
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I've written a DPR calculator a while ago, you might all want to check it out. Criticism is welcome!
burst, because of how common energy resistance is at higher levels, is less valuable than holy (assuming a typical campaign where most foes are evil) or possibly even impact
The "bonus damage on crit" enchantments aren't usually worth the cost, anyway, unless you get into corner cases. Seriously, for the OP it's 11 average bonus damage in 5% of all hits (agains a CR8 enemy). That's an average damage bonus of 0.55, how could that possibly be worth a +1 enchantment cost? With a keen weapon or improved critical, it'd still be much worse than a +2 frost weapon.
Likewise, the speed enchantment isn't worth it - for the cost of a +3 increase, you could buy multiple sets of Boots of Speed, which, unless you need your boot slots, are just better.
As you've said, keen is worse than a further +1, even if we ignore overkill damage or DR penetration. Stuff that procs on damage (e.g. Panache recovery) can change that, of course, but Burst enchantments are indeed usually just not good enough. Also, keen can be imitated by a feat, while +1 to both attack and damage can't (for two-handed weapons).
I'd like to know what is the standard mechanism for calculating AoOs for DPR calculator purposed. Specifically, I'm curious if there's an agreed-upon way to calculate the trade-off between reach and non-reach two handed weapons.
There isn't one, for the reason you've stated. An AoO is basically just another bonus attack. You need to either use an estimated number of AoOs per round, or you do it the other way around and calculate how many AoOs you need on average for the reach weapon to be better.
Using my prefered sample stats (starting main stat of 18, every pip goes into that, weapon worth ≤1/3rd WBL, belt worth ≤1/5th WBL, Haste at 7th level), on let's say a raging 8th level Barbarian with PA, using a Greatsword, average full attack damage against an average CR8 enemy is 71. Same character wielding a glaive or bardiche does 67.4 average DPR, and needs one AoO per 7 rounds of full attacking to be better. Calculation: Average damage per AoO is 25.1, 25.1/(71-67.4)≈6.97
For comparison, if both are wielding exotic weapons, the Dwarven Longhammer/Giant-sticker guy needs an AoO every 3.3 rounds to be better than the Butchering Axe guy.
I agree with selling it. It's not a bad weapon but that could upgrade the whole group.
Given its value versus what it does, I'd say it's only a mediocre weapon, and that -- unless your GM is clueing you in that you'll be imminently facing something that actually needs a +5 or better weapon to get through its defenses -- selling it is the best cooperative party move, and especially if you have one of those honeytongued types who can sweet-talk a higher payout at market.
On the other hand, given that basically the worst +6 equivalent weapon someone could get is a +1 weapon with +5 worth of some of the weaker bonus equivalent weapon qualities, and that "it's almost always preferable to buy that next +1 instead", it's possible that the GM is encouraging people to use these sorts of magic enhancements by not treating them as bonus equivalent and just putting this stuff in loot piles. Like my players are never going to buy a treasonous or a legbreaker weapon unless I straight up give it to them.
I mean, Pathfinder 2nd edition straight up does this: property and potency runes don't compete for the same slots, so getting a frost rune on your +2 expert sword just costs "the price of the frost rune." I figure this was one of the most popular things in the playtest.
So it's worth asking the GM if they are doing something like that, houseruling that bonus equivalent properties are independent of bonuses, say, before you decide to sell it.
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Thanks to Derklord and Wonderstell for the answers about AoOs. Each game I keep a tally of both combat rounds and AoOs. My reach fighters tend to average between 0.7 - 0.8 AoOs per combat round , with most coming in the important early rounds of combat. My Pathfinder experience has been that reach tactics yield about a ~60% damage boost over just attacking in one's own turn. Reach tactics also mitigate incoming damage.
I play almost exclusively in the level 1 - 9 range.
N.b. I suspect my AoO count is on the high side of average. I use various tricks to harvest AoOs: 20' reach, difficult terrain, psychology, and teamwork. Given my typical AoO count, reach weapons are hugely superior to non-reach weapons. Sometimes, when we're crushing a fight and I want to give others a chance at glory, I'll opt to entirely eschew my PC's Standard Actions and just rely on AoOs.
@Derklord: Thanks for pointing out the difference between single-target and multi-target attacking as it applies to AoOs. Reach tactics work best when facing one-on-two or one-on-three odds, and are less effective one on one. DPR is calculated for a one-on-one fight. So the nature of DPR calculations tend to minimize the impact of AoOs. That explains why my reach PCs tend to perform better than DPR calculations would suggest.
P.s. Regarding the close range no-attack bubble of reach weapons, I've also tracked how (in)frequently that comes up in play. My PCs seem to lose about one attack per year of game play, which is way less than 1% of total attacks. My early PCs would always have a way to attack inside the reach-donut. PCs I've created in the last few years mostly don't bother, as it's such an unusual edge-case. Also, I have suspension-of-disbelief issues with wearing Spiked Armor, as I have experience wearing real armor. My PCs also always actually carry only what is reasonable, which means respecting what is a Primary Weapon and a Sidearm. I decry the 'golf-bag of weapons' approach as not fitting my preferred fantasy world.
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this group whines too much about how much damage I done with archery
Is your GM properly reminding you of soft-cover penalties? (If one of your allies is between you and the target, you're supposed to be eating at additional -4 to hit after accounting for Precise Shot.) Is he tossing a will-save or an Obscuring Mist your way every so often?
If he merely places a bunch of fairly witless melee monsters in the middle of an empty, well-lit room, of course your archer will mow them down every time.
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Great to have you on the Pathfinder boards, huggin!
Some say the critical feat sequence is a trap. Others swear by it. I haven't analyzed it enough to have a valid opinion, although I've certainly GMd for plenty of crit builds.
A Druid ranting about 'overpowered rangers' is comedic! Druid class is much stronger than Ranger class. If a Ranger is consistently outperforming a Druid it's because the player is more skilled.
I shudder to think how this same Druid player would react to a blockbuster wizard or hangover cleric.
Two pounce kitties will sheck writ thrice as fast as any archer, and they never run out of claws.
My thinking seems to be the opposite of your's. My thinking was why use a feat to get improved critical when an enchant does the same thing
It really depends on what you want, and what your character is. If you're short on feats (or your feats are worth more than a +1 to attakc and damage) but still want a high crit range keen is preferable - Magus being a prime example of such a character. Meanwhile, if you don't know what to do with your feats, it's better to take a +1 weapon enchantment with Improved Critical than a Keen weapon with Weapon Focus.
The real value of a higher weapon enchantment is the DR penetration, though - a +3 weapon counts as cold iron and silver, a +4 weapon counts as adamantine, and a +5 weapon counts as having all alignments (all for DR only).One of the things I want to get a better idea about is when keen/improve critical is worth it and should I go up the critical feat table.
It really depends on the character, so there can be no universal answer. Generally, keen isn't worth it for damage alone, and the good crit feats come online pretty late (13th level or later).
Many people overvalue critical hits - they may feel cool, and that can definitely be reason enough to persue them, but mechanically, they're often not worth it. That's different for classes profiting more from crits than usual, of course (a Swashbuckler is almost disfunctional without a 18-20 weapon, for instance).Some of the critical feats have very nice effects, my favourite being Staggering Critical for pretty early access, very strogn effect (shuts down full attacking!), and notable effect on made save. The main problem of ciritical feats are that they're unreliable - you might not crit at all, and even if you do, the enemy has about a 50% chance to make the saving throw. To add insult to injury, if you confirm a crit, the extra damage ends up being enough to just kill the enemy often enough. The good thing of crit feats is that they work in both melee and range, though.
Pretty much every time I hit using many shot and deadly aim the druid goes on a rant about how rangers are over powered.
Cute, the tier 1 class whines about the tier 4 class. Depending on your group chemistry, I'd start some fake rant every single time the Druid casts a (higher level) spell - turnabout is fair play. Seriously, prepared full spell casting is by far the most powerful class feature in the entire game.
The barbarian and the bard in the group have a tendency to forget what feats, skills or spells they have during combat.
My suggestion: Help them out. A good first step would be some sort of cheat sheet that summerized their character's most important statistics, kinda like a condensed character sheets (without the calculations), with special focus on a table of attack (and damage) rolls under different effects. Take look at the cheat sheet for my 8th level Summoner. I stopped printing out my actual character sheet and only brought that single page - it immensely smoothened out and sped up gameplay, and I soon started doing similar sheets for the other players.
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P.s. Regarding the close range no-attack bubble of reach weapons, I've also tracked how (in)frequently that comes up in play. My PCs seem to lose about one attack per year of game play, which is way less than 1% of total attacks. My early PCs would always have a way to attack inside the reach-donut. PCs I've created in the last few years mostly don't bother, as it's such an unusual edge-case.
It's more of a concern at higher levels, when you really want to hit with your +5 Holy Bane Fauchard of Doom instead of the MWK Cestus. Infrequent as it is, that's pretty much the only reason why people chose to not use reach weapons.
They fear the donut
Then again, I'm sure 20 ft reach has given you full-attacks in several situations where you'd normally have been forced to spend a move action to get close.
So it's definitely worth it to use reach weapons, as you in addition to getting AoOs can full-attack more often.