if you want to up your skills, take the Wildblooded archetype, the Sage bloodline (moves your casting attribute to intelligence), put everything you put into CHA into INT, boil at high temperature, stirring frequently and viola!
Magdyyret did indicate a desire for a high charisma score which is why I didn't bring it up, but you absolutely could swap Int and Cha by going for the Sage wildblooded option. It's an easy modification that changes relatively little about the build.
If you want to be a full caster with high Int and Charisma, the Arcanist and the Psychic (with Cha disciplines) gets more in-class for having those stats high than do the Wizard or Sorcerer. For the most part a Wizard gets nothing out of a high Cha that everybody else doesn't, and likewise a Sorcerer gets nothing out of Int that anybody else wouldn't.
A low-Int sorcerer is fine, but you'd be one of the least skilled characters available in the game- even low-Int fighters do better than you do at skills now.
You could also drop Charisma down to 10 after going with Sage Sorcerer and take something like Ease of Faith as a trait to get class skill with diplomacy. This will get you very close to where the Charisma-based Sorcerer is as a face. Generally speaking an Int-based character can easily get around having a mediocre charisma by just having the right traits.
The one thing having a low Charisma will hurt you on is on spells that require opposed charisma checks. The Charm spell line, Dominate spell line, Command Undead, and the Planar Binding spell like all call for opposed charisma checks in some circumstances, which is very advantageous for Sorcerers. Of course, if you aren't using those spells it's not relevant.
I guess before we get more indecision, maybe a quick "pros and cons" of the three main classes being discussed
Wizard
Pros: very flexible and can have a wide selection of spells at its finger-tips that can be changed daily, has lots of spells known, can get pseudo-spontaneous casting of utility spells with Fast Study, learns more powerful spells earlier, and has lots of spell slots (if you're a specialist).
Cons: spell loadout needs to be tweaked ahead of time, requiring good prediction of your needs in the upcoming adventuring day. Fast Study requires spell slots be left empty. Options can be limited when spell slots are depleted.
Sorcerer
Pros: has lots of options at its immediate fingertips, can easily spam a spell repeatedly if needed on the spot, has powerful bloodline bonuses, has lots of spell slots, fares well in long adventuring days and needs less rationing than other spellcasters.
Cons: more inflexible since it has fewer spells known and cannot easily swap them out. More reliant on consumables to compensate. Fewer downtime options.
Arcanist
Pros: extremely flexible with Quick Study, able to spontaneously switch up the spells it has available on the fly. Has a lot of spells known, gets powerful exploit class features. Very powerful in short adventuring days where it can nova.
Cons: very dependent on managing its resources; has fewer spell slots and is dependent on arcane reservoir for its key abilities. Has few spells available at any given time and relies on Quick Study to switch them up. Does worse in long endurance days.
Psychic has a different spell list so it's a different beast than any of the above. In terms of its playstyle's pros and cons it's broadly similar to the Sorcerer, but it has a different spell list. It's a bit more focused on mind-affecting spells, but if that sounds good it's a great choice as well.
Well as far as im concerned as it is now, psychic classes arent allowed, and i also wanted to ask you what you think about the spell Paragon surge... ive heard it is pretty good... for sorcerer.
Paragon Surge lets you temporarily give yourself a bonus feat. You pick the Expanded Arcana feat, which lets you add to your list of spells known. Paizo did later nerf Paragon Surge via a FAQ clarification so you're limited to one additional spell per day, but it's still a great selection for half-elves.
If you go with 10 con, expect to die; 14 con is advisable.
Take Toughness and learn False Life, maybe buy a con-boosting belt, plenty of ways around it.
I could possibly take human race, and then take racial heritage, Half elf, and that will unlock paragon surge...
That would work; alternately you could just be a half-elf and take the Cunning feat to get the same skill point bonus as the human.
Thanks Dasrak, but paragon of life only have like 1 min per level so how does it work the rest of the day?
You will only have access to the spell you unlocked for Paragon Surge's duration, so you will need to re-cast Paragon Surge any time you want to use the bonus spells. It's typically not used on combat spells as a result, and is at its best during downtime.
And my ability scores for a sage sorcerer would be
Str: 7
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 22 (+2 racial, +2 level)
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
Looks good. If you're satisfied with the spell and feat selection, all that's left is items. A nice selection of scrolls, a handy haversack for storage, a headband of vast intelligence, and cloak of resistance would all be great acquisitions if you can swing them.
I still dont know if i should be human or elf...
I could take the racial heritage feat as human
the reason i wanted human was because i could then take comprehensive eduacation and get all the knowledge skills, (The party only have knowledge nature and engineering)
You have +6 from intelligence, you don't actually need class skill bonus for a decent knowledge check. In any case, as an Arcane Sorcerer (Sages still count as Arcane bloodline) you get class skill in knowledge arcana and a second knowledge of your choice, so that does let you pick two knowledge skills for that extra boost.
Humans are probably good as is; the bonus feat and skill points are pretty much exactly what you want and there's no reason to swap them out.
For half-elf, the multitalented feature is wasted since you won't be multiclassing. Arcane Training and Fey Thoughts look like the best picks to swap it out.
You were talking about being the party face so Diplomacy might be a good idea. Even without charisma, class skill and max skill ranks can go quite a way. Stealth is also a nice one and complements invisibility nicely (the two effects stack when trying to sneak past creatures with extremely acute perception, and you don't want to blow an invisibility spell just to skulk around some bushes anyways). Sea Legs doesn't appear to give you class skill with Swim, so that's another option.
Well, if you like you could put those feats into enhancing your fireball. Your bonus feat from your bloodline should probably be Blood Havoc. Like all bloodline mutations it can be taken as a bloodline feat rather than exchanging a bloodline power. For feats you'd take Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Fireball), and Empower Spell. That gives your fireballs 10d6+10 damage, and with Magical Lineage to cast empowered fireballs with 4th level slots you get a 150% multiplier on that. That still leaves you with one feat left over, which you could spend on Extra Traits if you can't afford Magical Lineage, or perhaps on something like Craft Wondrous Items for extra gear, or even just Toughness for a few more hit points.
Well, what about intensify spell?
Due to your spell selection none of your spells can benefit from it yet. You'll definitely want it later, but you can take it at 9th or 11th level instead and won't really lose anything.
Wouldnt it give me +15?
And i could then also take metamagic master on fireball and go around throwing 15d6 + 15 x 1.5 fireballs?
Eventually yes, but you need to actually raise your caster level to 15. Intensify Spell only raises the cap, you still need to actually have that caster level to benefit from it. Right now your caster level with fireball is 10 (after counting spell specialization) so you can't make use of the +5 cap from intensify spell yet.
It gets even better Spell Perfection, but you don't get that until 15th.
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@Magdyyret: Have fun with your new arcane caster! I call it a 'Wizard' in the rest of this post. Please understand I'm describing your PC's role in the story, not your class name.
In the same spirit as Eisenhower's Farewell Address I offer you one comedic take on Martial-Caster disparity in RPGs: Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit [Youtube].
Of the many ways to play an arcane caster, one axis is "how much attention do you get?" One extreme is
You subtly manipulate reality to give advantage to your allies. You are so subtle your allies don't even notice. E.g. Treantmonk's Wizard Guide.
Adventures played by this type type of Wizard tend to read like Greek mythology. The Wizard is just along for the ride. Most of the action is about the martial PCs interacting with the world and defeating their foes.
the other extreme is
Your Explosions Shame Michael Bey! E.g. Brewer's Blockbuster Wizard Guide
Adventures played by this type type of Wizard usually involve lots of explosions. The martial characters protect the wizard and clean up after the wizard. So long as the Wizard stands the party is gonna win. The martials are just along for the ride and to handle BBEGs. Most of the action is about the wizard blasting ^%$*.
Both play styles can be a lot of fun. I encourage you to practice both approaches and to then seek a Middle Way. This is especially important given that you expect this game to reach level 18-20, where the disparity is greatest.
Both play styles can be a lot of fun.
One of the cool things about Sorcerer as opposed to Wizards is that they have all their spells at their disposal at any given time. This means Mr Magic here can choose to bring out the fireballs and go Michael Bey any time he wants, or elect not to and instead use his more subtle spells. No preparation needed, all options are always on the table. It's what makes Sorcerers so well-suited to blasting; they don't have to sacrifice anything in terms of their utility/support/control spell loadout in order to have blasting power. You can be both the blockbuster wizard and the god/batman wizard at the same time. Spells known for Sorcerers feel super-restrictive at character creation, but in actual play it feels liberating to have everything at your finger-tips.
Certainly there's a lot you can apply from those guides even if they're focused on Wizards. The spell selection that's been chosen is very well-rounded and a lot of the advice for Wizards is equally applicable to Sorcerers.
Both play styles can be a lot of fun.One of the cool things about Sorcerer as opposed to Wizards is that they have all their spells at their disposal at any given time. This means Mr Magic here can choose to bring out the fireballs and go Michael Bey any time he wants, or elect not to and instead use his more subtle spells. No preparation needed, all options are always on the table. It's what makes Sorcerers so well-suited to blasting; they don't have to sacrifice anything in terms of their utility/support/control spell loadout in order to have blasting power. You can be both the blockbuster wizard and the god/batman wizard at the same time. Spells known for Sorcerers feel super-restrictive at character creation, but in actual play it feels liberating to have everything at your finger-tips.
Get the best of both worlds with Arcanist.
Yeah I tried Slim but I think that ship has sailed :)
Yeah ive looked at the arcanist, but i dont fully understand the arcane resoivoir ability.. and therefore im not sure about taking it..
It's just a metacurrency like ki or grit or inspiration- you spend it to power the things that say they cost it.
It's literally just-
- Pool Max is 3+Level
- Every Day you start with 3+ (1/2)Level at breakfast
- When you cast a spell you can spend 1 point to increase the DC or caster level by one.
Everything else about it is described in the arcane exploits that use it or replenish it, and the consume spells class feature.
I just realised you could get even more damage, if you take crossblooded Orc/draconic, and then substitutes the draconic 1st level bloodline ability with blood havoc, you would get +3 PER DIE!
Seems pretty good.
That is indeed the optimal blaster build in terms of DPR, although there's a healthy debate over whether the sacrifices it makes in other areas is actually worth the extra damage. The problem is that you'll often overflow your enemy's hit points.
and something you might do if you value raw power over everything else. However, I would point out that there is a diminishing return as you increase damage; at a certain point your spells deal so much damage that a large amount of it is being lost to overflow. I personally find the +3 die build to be overkill that often just wastes its damage, and I don't think it's worth losing the spells known.
Now, you can split the difference and go with a +2 per die build. The best approach there is the wildblooded Primal Elemental bloodline; this gives you +1 damage per die to your choice of element, which you can then stack with blood havoc, and it also gives better powers than either draconic or orc. It is incompatible with crossblooded, so it can't be used with the +3 per die build.
Which is not to say that your +1 per die build is bad. It's actually quite good and will be enough to "save or die" weaker enemies.
Get the best of both worlds with Arcanist.
The problem I have with arcanists is how tight they are on resources. You need to spend reservoir every time you need to quick study or use an exploit, and you have fewer spells per day than wizards or sorcerers. In any case, he's using Paragon Surge which is basically a 1-per-day Quick Study.
Which feats shall i take the next levels 9 and upwards, to supplement my fireball?
Intensify Spell wouldn't be a bad pick. It's a relatively small power boost at 9th, but it'll get better and better with each successive level. Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Focus are both solid choices as well.
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That is indeed the optimal blaster build in terms of DPR, although there's a healthy debate over whether the sacrifices it makes in other areas is actually worth the extra damage. The problem is that you'll often overflow your enemy's hit points.I just realised you could get even more damage, if you take crossblooded Orc/draconic, and then substitutes the draconic 1st level bloodline ability with blood havoc, you would get +3 PER DIE!
Seems pretty good.
I mean, if you really wanted to do this, a blood arcanist with the orc bloodline might be a better way to do this, considering you can also grap admixture for an exploit so you can throw acid balls or ice balls to get around resistances.
Sure, you have a limited number of spells per day, but in a party with three martials it might be polite to not blow up *everything* before the people who want to do HP damage with weapons get a chance.
....and? Those are powerful abilities; they should have a cost.Get the best of both worlds with Arcanist.The problem I have with arcanists is how tight they are on resources. You need to spend reservoir every time you need to quick study or use an exploit,
....and you have fewer spells per day than wizards or sorcerers.
Arcanists have more spells per day than wizards on even levels, less on odd levels.
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Arcanists have more spells per day than wizards on even levels, less on odd levels.
Arcanists also get more out of each spell slot than a wizard or a sorcerer since they have access to more "silver bullet" spells (particularly post quick study) than a sorcerer does and do not have the "I prepared the wrong spells" problem a wizard can have.
Yeah but now he wants the arcane trickster and arcanist doesn't do well multiclassing. Rogue is tricky, especially the unchained version. Level 3 would give you dex to damage and level 4 is status effects. Guess it depends on what you bring to the party. Lol back to the skald/ bard suggestion, if you are gonna fight why not bring the whole party up?
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Arcanist lvl 5 and 6
1st 4 2nd 3 = 7
1st 4 2nd 4 3rd 2 = 10
Wizard with a school lvl 5 and 6
1st 3+1 2nd 2+1 3rd 1+1 = 9
1st 3+1 2nd 3+1 3rd 2+1 = 11
Wizards with schools have more spells but less flexibility than arcanist. I did not assume the bonus spells from Int as either build should be able to get comparable in but if I were to consider it the wizard would have a slight edge for not need cha (through most arcanist can ignor it rather easily).
I would just do the one level more magic is better imo.
So the bare min for requirements is 4 lvls sorcerer and 1 rogue and you could have 3 Arc trickster...So sorcerer spells would be lvl 7..with another rogue you are now putting the spell behind by 2 levels, so that much longer to level 4 and your bab would still only be 4..if going sage You would lose 6 skill points..which is a bit, but spells will be taking the place of skills pretty soon. The rogue talent and evasion..meh spells will usually trump them.. usually around 8 on up is where magic starts taking off, hence why pfs usually caps at 12..spellcasters just about take over then.
Obviously if you want to be more in the combat and willing to take a hit to spells then go with a hybrid class.. a magus would have level 3 spells and a bab of 6 at level 8..with the typical intensified shocking grasp.. you could do 8d6 damage with it and heck go with the scimitar and it crits at 18-20 (or maybe 15-20 if you feel like it) Personally I think the arcane trickster is a trap, if you are gonna be a caster, be the caster :P
Okay, yesterday i was with my friend (I play pathfinder with him) and he was like, why dont you make an Arcane Trickster who also uses a rapier in combat while flanking.
Base attack bonus is too low, you'll never hit anything.
Melee arcane tricksters really only work well with natural attack shapeshifting builds, using the sheer number of attacks to compensate for their bad accuracy. If you want to be more conventional with something like a rapier look into the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype for an Unchained Rogue. Preferably use a two-handed finessable weapon like an elven curve blade. It's a good build, it's not quite as strong at spellcasting but it's quite competent if you want to go the roguish spellcaster route while still being decent at melee.
....and? Those are powerful abilities; they should have a cost.
Absolutely, but that's the trade-off. You can't swap spells endlessly, you have a limited number per day based on your reservoir, which also eats into your usage of other abilities. This requires significantly more resource management than wizard or sorcerer.
Arcanists have more spells per day than wizards on even levels, less on odd levels.
That's only true if you don't count specialist slots, and the only conventional wizard build that isn't a specialist is the Exploiter (which has a very different comparison with the Arcanist). If you count the specialist slots, there is no level at which the Arcanist has more slots than the Wizard, and 1st and 2nd are the only levels at which he ties the Wizard. At all other levels the Wizard has more slots. Here's a raw count of slot totals presuming maximum intelligence investment (presuming +2 headband at 4th level, +4 at 6th, and +6 at 8th for both; no inherent bonus because access to those can vary wildly based on the campaign). Format is wizard slot total/arcanist slot total:
1st - 4/4 (even)
2nd - 5/5 (even)
3rd - 8/6 (+2 wizard)
4th - 10/9 (+1 wizard)
5th - 14/11 (+3 wizard)
6th - 16/15 (+1 wizard)
7th - 20/16 (+4 wizard)
8th - 24/22 (+2 wizard)
9th - 29/23 (+6 wizard)
10th - 31/28 (+3 wizard)
11th - 35/29 (+6 wizard)
12th - 37/33 (+4 wizard)
13th - 41/34 (+7 wizard)
14th - 43/38 (+5 wizard)
15th - 47/39 (+8 wizard)
16th - 50/44 (+6 wizard)
17th - 54/45 (+9 wizard)
18th - 56/49 (+7 wizard)
19th - 58/50 (+8 wizard)
20th - 60/51 (+9 wizard)
To someone who hasn't played these classes this might be a little bit deceiving, in that it makes it look like the Wizard's lead is mostly a high-level phenomenon. But in actual play the opposite is true and it's far more severe at lower levels. For instance, that 1 extra slot the wizard has over the arcanist at 6th level happens to be a 3rd level slot, and anyone who has played at 5th/6th level knows just how much even a single extra 3rd level slot can matter.
Per PossibleCabbage comment above, now subtract every "useless" spell the wizard memorized that wasn't be needed. An Arcanist has no useless slots; the only way he has "fewer" than a wizard is if he's totally burned out for the day. (And the specialist wizard must designate one or more schools that are now a PITA for him to access.)
The only time an arcanist is behind a wizard or sorc in likely deliverable spells on even levels is when it is known with absolute and utter certainly what the day will bring, down to the last curveball (i.e., your GM is an 'ol softy). An admixture blockbuster wizard will have a decent edge in applicable one-trick-pony AoE DPR, but that typically comes at a severe cost to "god wizard" utilitarianism.
I mean, one reason I prefer the blood arcanist to the blockbuster wizard as a blaster is that endgame you can prepare your empowered intensified maximized fireball (or whatever you have spell perfection on) with a 6th, a 7th, an 8th, and maybe a 9th. Use the rest of those slots to prepare whatever, and that won't keep you from throwing that particular fireball 14 times in a day if it's called for, but you will also have 8 other spells that can go in those slots if it's called for.
Which is to say "preparing a spell for utility" only reduces the amount of fireballs you can throw if you end up using it. So you can walk that middle path between god wizard and blockbuster.
Certainly I'm not saying that "I prepare all my slots perfectly with a combination of good planning and leaving slots open" is an impossible or unrealistic way to play in all cases, it's just *much* more difficult than playing an Arcanist this way. Most people who aren't systems mastery savants are going to end up either wasting spell slots or "not having the right spell prepared" somewhat regularly.