As far as the witch goes, never tried it either, could you tell me about her, some tips, what hexes to pick, a guide maybe?
Tbh I'm unsure if you'd enjoy the general playstyle of the witch since their focus in combat is typically on debuffing and crippling enemies. Witches are level 9 arcane casters with a spell list that's kind of a mix between wizard and druid; you're choice of patron further modifies this list. Of course hexes are the defining feature of the witch; I even think of the witch as a hex user with supplementary spells.
I've written about the witch on the forums before so I'll just more or less copy that:
Race wise just about any race that can get a bonus to int is a good choice. When it comes to feat selection Extra Hex is always a solid choice since many hexes are often stronger than a feat. If you plan to use hexes such as Slumber and Misfortune then the Accursed Hex feat can help you out. If you think you can reliably hit the DCs then the Ritual Hex feat is a good option as it provides you with greater flexibility. If you go human and see yourself making use of Ritual Hex you can take the Focused Study alternative race trait to switch the generic bonus feat for Skill Focus at levels 1, 8 and 16; pick Skill Focus: Knowledge (planes) and Skill Focus: Knowledge (History) to help hit the ritual DCs.
As for hexes:
Cackle: A classic. As a move action any creature within 30ft that is under the effect of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, protective luck hex or misfortune hex that was caused by you has the duration of that hex increased by one round. You can use this as a swift action if you have the Cackling Hag's Blouse.
Cauldron: If you want to brew potions take this hex instead of the Brew Potion feat. It gives to the aforementioned feat as a bones and +4 to craft alchemy.
Evil Eye: Another classic choice and a strong one at that. You can apply the different penalties to the same creature. Lowering saving throws will help you land your spells and hexes, lowering ac will help your team's attacks.
Flight: This should be taken early on. You get a lot of bang for your buck with this hex. By level 5 you'll have at will Featherfall, 1/day Levitate, 1 min/level fly and a +4 racial bonus to swim.
Fortune: Can be useful particularly when used with Cackle but in my experience due to the once per 24 hours limitation I've tended to put off using it in case we'd need it more later that day.
Gift of Consumption and Greater Gift of Consumption: Lets you share (Gift of consumption) or entirely redirect (Greater Gift of Consumption) the effect of anything that requires a fortitude save to a target creature within 30ft.
Healing: Starts as CLW , becomes CMW at level 5. As this is a supernatural ability it doesn't provoke attack of opportunity and it doesn't require concentration checks. Works well with the Scar hex.
Iceplant: +2 natural ac and constant endure elements for both the witch and their familiar. More ac is always good and if the campaign features extreme temperatures then endure elements makes life more comfortable.
Misfortune: It's a solid hex. I prefer this to the Fortune hex since you never have to worry about "but what if I need it later".
Murksight: See though natural fog, mist and rain without penalty and see up to 15ft if the effect is magical. This lets you make effective use of fog spells. This hex + Delay Poison + Stinking Cloud make for a potent combination.
Poison Touch: Use on yourself, your familiar, summoned creatures and teammates to give them a poison (Witch Toxin - 1d2 Str damage) claw attack. At level 10 the hex lasts long enough that you could milk yourself or your teammates for a dose of poison.
Protective Luck: I think you allies will love you for this. While it only applies to attack rolls it doesn't allow a saving throw and is especially good if you've got 1 ally under attack from multiple enemies.
Scar: Scar you teammates and use your hexes on them for up to 1 mile away.
Slumber: Put the target to sleep. A powerful hex; some would argue too powerful and find it gets overused.
Swamp Hag: Useful if you're travelling through the relevant terrain. Could work well with the Swamp's Grasp hex.
Water Lung: Breath under water. Useless if you never go near water; useful and potentially life-saving if you do.
Major Hexes:
Agony: Nauseated is a deeply unpleasant condition and one you'll want to apply to your enemies.
Animal Skin: While you wear the skin of an animal you become that animal. A good utility option if you keep a variety of different animal skins. You can still use hexes while polymorphed.
Ice Tomb: Shuts down an enemy for long as the ice lasts and leaves them staggered if the ice is broken.
Regenerative Sinew: You can use it to apply fast healing 5 or heal ability score damage.
Restless Slumber: Requires the Slumber hex as a prereq. Causes the target creature to take 1d10 damage each turn, this damage doesn't wake them up. when the creature wakes they suffer confusion.
Retribution: when the target creature deals damage in melee, it takes half that damage back, ignoring resistances, immunities etc.
Weather Control: Control the weather. While it has a long casting time you get what is equivalent to a 7th level spell (Control Weather) 3 levels earlier if you take it at level 10.
So the big question is what is his thing? Is he going for a blaster or just a generalist? Also which spells will he tend to have prepped? Warrior of old and reactionary wont stack, both are trait-type bonus.
Are there any other fun cleric builds, ive never played one before.
PASS ON THIS ONE IF YOUR CAMPAIGN IS HEAVY ON UNDEAD, CONSTRUCTS OR OTHER MINDLESS FODDER.
Now, get into the right mindset, we have a deranged sorcerer/rogue/arcane trickster who thinks himself a god
Loki, the god of mischief and lies:
The "villain" who is usually one step ahead of everyone else. Slick, sly, and clever, the prodigal son of Asgard.
Race and Attributes
The Loki of Marvel comics fame is a frost giant. Adopted by Odin, Loki's nature was hidden from him until he discovered he'd been living a lie.
The mythical Loki on the other hand was one of the only fire giants mentioned in Norse myth. Fire represented wit and cleverness, and if left unchecked it would consume and destroy. This build suggests neither and both of these at the same time.
The best fit for Loki both mechanically and thematically is the tiefling; specifically the Rakshasa variant. This variant provides a +2 to dexterity and a +2 to charisma, as well as a -2 to wisdom. What is more fitting for the god of it-seemed-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time? It also provides access to the skills Disguise and Sense Motive (both useful things to have), as well as the use of detect thoughts as a spell-like ability instead of darkness. This race also gives Loki resistance to fire, cold, and electricity, perhaps just to spite his brother.
As far as attributes go Loki has more use for dexterity, charisma, and intelligence. While he isn't known for his toughness, he is a giant, so constitution shouldn't be his dump stat. Strength isn't primary, but it is useful.
Traits
Loki is a complex character, which is why picking traits for him can be difficult.Magical knack (+2 to your caster level up to your total character level) is a great trait for balancing out the caster level problems multi-classing incurs. Dangerously curious (+1 on use magic device, and u.m.d is always a class skill for you) is also a useful trait, since it sums up both Loki's personality as well as his use of magical items. Traits like convincing liar (+1 trait bonus to bluff or intimidate, and it's always a class skill for you), as well as charming (+1 trait bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and the DC of language dependent spells cast on someone who could be sexually attracted to the caster) are equally good choices.
Classes
Loki possesses a wide array of abilities, and he's proven himself readily adaptable. That said, he is an amalgamation of magic and guile that can only be thematically realized through the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rule Book 377). All someone needs is 3 levels of rogue and 4 levels of sorcerer to enter the prestige class; this covers the 4 ranks of Disable Device, Escape Artist, and Knowledge Arcana, as well as 2d6 of sneak attack and the ability to cast mage hand in addition to at least 1 second level spell. Players should choose their bloodline carefully, but the Silver Tongue ability of the Rakshasa bloodline (Ultimate Magic 68) makes it a slam dunk with the ability to add a +5 to a Bluff check, and to make it more difficult for other people to force you to tell the truth. As far as the Rogue Talent, fast stealth is one of the more useful ones, but players can choose whatever they wish.
Arcane Trickster fulfills Loki's theme in a way that few other builds do. It provides decent skill ranks (4+Int modifier) per level, a long list of skills, it continues offering effective levels of spellcasting, and it provides unique abilities like Impromptu Sneak Attack as well as Tricky Spells (the ability to declare an attack a sneak attack and ignore verbal or somatic components on a whim respectively). Arcane Tricksters are extremely adaptable, and if focused are a force to be reckoned with.
Skills
Loki's skills are diverse, but this build should focus on what the player needs. Disable device (for getting into and out of tricky spots), knowledge (arcana) [for that rare lore about ancient powers], and escape artist (because being tied up makes life difficult) are necessary investments (though the last may be impractical past the 4 ranks required). Loki should also have both bluff and diplomacy at their highest ranks (for obvious reasons), and intimidate is also a useful skill (for those who remember his speech to the Black Widow in Avengers). Stealth is a given, and disguise can be useful unless a player plans to use magic to affect a disguise instead of more mundane means. Acrobatics is useful for getting away, and sleight of hand is something that every Loki build should have, as the Arcane Trickster allows for its use at range. Use magic device is a requirement, particularly since it's a Charisma-based skill. Spellcraft is also important (since it's useful to know what enemies are casting), and it's key to identifying magic items. How many skills and what focus a player decides varies on what intelligence score he or she chose, as well as whether their Loki has become a hero, a villain, or if he is still going through his fall from grace.
Feats
Feats for Loki vary, but magical and skill feats will be what players find most helpful. Skill focus (Core Rule Book 134) is great for providing bonuses on any skill both now and later. Other skill feats like deceitful(Core Rule Book 121) help with disguise and bluff. Feats like spell focus and greater spell focus (Core Rule Book 134 and 125) are essential for making sure that enemies make their saves as rarely as possible. For damage dealing spells it's a good idea to invest in spell penetration and greater spell penetration (Core Rule Book 134 and 125), as well as varisian tattoo (Inner Sea World Guide 289) which increases your effective caster level by school.
With so many options it's important to ask what your Loki is going to focus on, and make sure it's available. Mundane trickery? Illusion magic? Enchantment? Once you've chosen your weapon of choice, make it count.
Spells
Magic is going to be key to Loki's abilities, and sorcerers only get a select number of spells. Most of Loki's magic tends to be illusion or enchantment, and early spell selections like charm person (Core Rule Book 254), disguise self (Core Rule Book271), and anything that can create a false double or protect Loki like mirror image(Core Rule Book 314) or minor image (Core Rule Book 314) are always good choices for spell selection.
When it comes to Loki's magic it's less about which specific spells a player chooses, and more about how the player uses them. For Loki magic isn't about incinerating his opponents or leaving them frozen in a permanent ice prison (well, most of the time). It's about misdirection, distraction, and making his enemies fight each other while keeping himself out of harm's way as much as he can. For instance, players who can charm enemies into fighting one another (POSSIBLY GETTING A WILLING SLAVE FIGHTER-TYPE if the charmed creature survives the fight), or get those enemies to stand aside and let the party pass without harm, are sort of what the concept is all about. Not all enemies can be affected by charms and illusions though. That's why it's important to select at least a few battlefield control spells like obscuring mist (Core Rule Book317), as well as spells that create walls to trap enemies and provide safety. Invisibility is Loki's best friend as well, particularly when it comes time to sneak away undetected while a decoy pretends to stand and fight.
Equipment
Loki, like all adventurers, will benefit greatly from getting his hands on the right equipment. A cloak of resistance (Core Rule Book 507) is always a good choice, as are bracers of armor (Core Rule Book 504). However, to really play into Loki's themes, it's a good idea to have items like a ring of invisibility (Core Rule Book 481), dust of tracelessness (Core Rule Book 510), or even really expensive items like the boots of teleportation (Core Rule Book 504). Any scrolls or wands that can save Loki's personal magic for when it's needed are also great investments, especially if they're for spells he doesn't normally have access to but might want in a pinch.
For those imitating Marvel's Loki down to the details though, one of the most important items to have is a rod of rulership (Core Rule Book 488). It allows for the rulership of up to 300 hit dice worth of creatures at a time, though intelligent creatures do get a save against the effect. While this scepter has a limited amount of time it can be used, 500 minutes total, it is certainly a thematically powerful item.
Final Suggestions
There will always be players who have different ideas and desires for how they'd like to play their version of a concept. Some players might think the Elemental bloodline is truer to Loki's myth and heritage, and that illusion and evocation spells would be a better combination. Others might think playing a straight sorcerer rather than diluting it with rogue and arcane trickster would be preferable. Remember; no player is wrong.
The only truly dumb decision a player can make when putting together a character is not to look ahead. This is particularly true with a multi-class character. Every skill choice, every feat, every spell learned should be a puzzle piece that fits into a complete image. Players should know what they can do at level one as well as at level ten or twenty, and they should be aware of what the holes in their strategy are. For instance, Loki's extremely low BAB means that he isn't going to mix it up well in combat, but if he's fighting someone immune to his spells or if he's out of magic then what does he do? What does a character focused on illusion and enchantment spells do when facing undead? Or when trying to deal with constructs? These are all questions that players need to ask themselves.
Remember, there's a counter to everything. No matter how stealthy someone is or how high a spell DC is, there's a foil. Players who expect their bags of tricks to never run dry often find that when they least expect it they run into something they didn't plan for. Like being used as a floor mace by the Hulk.
* Warrior of Old and Reactionary do not stack. Get rid of one of them.
* You're missing a good general-purpose combat spell at 2nd level (Bull's Strength doesn't stack with Belt of Giant's Strength, Fox's Cunning doesn't stack with Headband of Vast Intelligence). Web can be a good choice for controlling space, and Blindness/Deafness is a cruel debuff.
* Get rid of Fireball and Lightning Bolt; due to your party's high DPR and your complete lack of investment in evocation, buffing them will be vastly superior to dealing damage directly, and there's no reason you'll ever prep these.
* Add the fly spell; melee characters will love you if it comes up.
* Elemental Body is useless on a character with 7 strength; just drop it.
Danny StarDust wrote:
No one mentioned a rage prophet? The real front line healer? I'm playing one right now, and boy, is it a lot of fun!
Oracles are great for a front-line caster build, but if you want to use rage then dipping Bloodrager and taking the Mad Magic feat is significantly better than Rage Prophet. Rage Prophet is basically obsolete since it takes vastly more investment to pull off but isn't appreciably better than the 1-level bloodrager dip with mad magic.
Alright, the arcane trickster seems pretty interesting, but i think i am set on playing a full wizard, unless you come up with an epic argument to why i should make "Loki", and i admit, he seems pretty cool, and i think he would be fun to play. But i dont know how to do so, or atleast i dont think i do.
If you can come with a more simple version of him, i would gladly look at him more. And by that i mean if you can write down his attributes and such, also which feats you would take, and so on.
As for my wizard, im thinking of going a little blaster so i might change the silent hunter trait, and reactionary into Magical Lineage, and Metamagic master, i just dont know if i should take fireball or lightning bolt. And i am not gonna put any of my spells away as i got them for free :D
PS i should point out that belts doesnt exist in this plot, there are a different variant to them, so the buff spells do stack with the other version of the belts. I also want my wizard to be able to destroy an opponent in a 1v1 situation if it should rise.
As for my wizard, im thinking of going a little blaster so i might change the silent hunter trait, and reactionary into Magical Lineage, and Metamagic master, i just dont know if i should take fireball or lightning bolt.
Lightning Bolt's line effect is very inconvenient, so between the two I'd definitely recommend going for Fireball all the way. If you want to go the electric route, Chain Lightning is the spell you want to bank on, but it's a long time waiting for it to arrive.
Take the Admixture Evoker school option if you're going the evocation route; Wizards have the lowest spell damage among the mainstream blaster builds, and you need to make it up for it by bypassing resistances and hammering weaknesses with the Admixture school's ability to spontaneously alter energy types.
Make sure to take the Spell Specialization feat to bolster your caster level; it might not feel like much by 8th level, but it's often the difference between 1-shotting or 2-shotting weak mooks. If you can afford the feats for it, the Preferred Spell feat is also great for giving you some flexibility in spell preps.
Finally, if you want to go really overkill, this is the build where Crossblooded Sorcerer rocks. Take just one level of Crossblooded Sorcerer (Orc/Draconic) to boost your fireball damage of your wizard spellcasting. It slows your wizard spellcasting slightly, but it gives a big power boost to your blasts. Whether that's worth it is up to you.
Magdyyret wrote:
And i am not gonna put any of my spells away as i got them for free :D
So you didn't pick these, they're just freebees you were given? That makes sense then. With that said, Elemental Body is so bad that 4 extra blank pages in your spellbook are probably more valuable than having the spell
Magdyyret wrote:
Alright, the arcane trickster seems pretty interesting, but i think i am set on playing a full wizard
You can use the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to qualify as a Rogue 1 / Wizard 3. This vastly improves the build and makes it play very close to a pure wizard, but with an added rogue flair. You can, of course, use Sorcerer or Arcanist if you prefer.
The accomplished sneak attacker suddenly makes the loki build faster, i wouldnt need to take 3 levels of rogue, i could just take 2 and this feat... and by doing so, magical knack would be greater cause i would still be a 20th level caster.. and i really liked the idea of the Loki build..
The accomplished sneak attacker suddenly makes the loki build faster, i wouldnt need to take 3 levels of rogue, i could just take 2 and this feat... and by doing so, magical knack would be greater cause i would still be a 20th level caster.. and i really liked the idea of the Loki build..
quite the skill monkey with Arcane Trickster, too. I believe you asked for that.
The accomplished sneak attacker suddenly makes the loki build faster, i wouldnt need to take 3 levels of rogue, i could just take 2 and this feat... and by doing so, magical knack would be greater cause i would still be a 20th level caster.. and i really liked the idea of the Loki build..
also quite the skill monkey with Arcane Trickster, too. I believe you asked for that.
I have been reading a bit and isnt i possible to do get arcane trickster as soon as you hit lvl 5. 1 rogue (feat accomplished sneak attacker)(trait magical knack) sorcerer 3, that should give u acces to 2 lvl, sneak attack 2d6 and the required skill ranks.. am i right?
sneak attack would continue to scale up, if you ever have to back-stab your bother, Thor.
Also, on your spell list your forgetting Haste. If your other party members can take an extra action chopping up your foes, that just helps keep the heat off of you and your casting.
ARCANE TRICKSTER
Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Skills: Disable Device 4 ranks, Escape Artist 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.
Special: Sneak attack +2d6.
With Accomplished Sneak Attacker does mean you could get this a low as sorcerer 4th/ rogue 1st =5th level.
The best fit for Loki both mechanically and thematically is the tiefling; specifically the Rakshasa variant. This variant provides a +2 to dexterity and a +2 to charisma, as well as a -2 to wisdom. What is more fitting for the god of it-seemed-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time? It also provides access to the skills Disguise and Sense Motive (both useful things to have), as well as the use of detect thoughts as a spell-like ability instead of darkness. This race also gives Loki resistance to fire, cold, and electricity, perhaps just to spite his brother.
As far as attributes go Loki has more use for dexterity, charisma, and intelligence. While he isn't known for his toughness, he is a giant, so constitution shouldn't be his dump stat. Strength isn't primary, but it is useful.
Loki
Rakshasa-spawn tiefling rogue 1/sorcerer 4 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends 23, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264)
Medium outsider (native)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 10 (+4 Dex)
hp 30 (5 HD; 4d6+1d8+6)
Fort +2, Ref +7, Will +4
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +3 (1d3+1 nonlethal)
Special Attacks sneak attack +2d6
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 4th; concentration +7)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 17
BOUGHT 12 WISDOM TO KEEP FROM HAVING A NEGATIVE WILL SAVE TO START.
BOUGHT 15 CHARISMA AND CHOSE +2 Cha *TIEFLING ABILITIES* TO GET 17 Cha TO UP AT 8TH LEVEL FOR 18 Cha.
BOUGHT 13 Con TO UP HP AT 4TH LEVEL= Con NOW AT 14.
Base Atk +2; CMB +3; CMD 17
Feats Accomplished sneak attacker, Eschew Materials
Skills Acrobatics +11, Disable Device +12, Disguise +5, Escape Artist +11, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Perception +8, Sense Motive +9, Spellcraft +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Disguise, +2 Sense Motive
Languages Common, AQUAN (water/ice), GIANT, IGNAN (fire),
SQ trapfinding +1
**********************Other Gear Equipment
Loki, like all adventurers, will benefit greatly from getting his hands on the right equipment. A cloak of resistance (Core Rule Book 507) is always a good choice, as are bracers of armor (Core Rule Book 504). However, to really play into Loki's themes, it's a good idea to have items like a ring of invisibility (Core Rule Book 481), dust of tracelessness (Core Rule Book 510), or even really expensive items like the boots of teleportation (Core Rule Book 504). Any scrolls or wands that can save Loki's personal magic for when it's needed are also great investments, especially if they're for spells he doesn't normally have access to but might want in a pinch.
For those imitating Marvel's Loki down to the details though, one of the most important items to have is a rod of rulership (Core Rule Book 488). It allows for the rulership of up to 300 hit dice worth of creatures at a time, though intelligent creatures do get a save against the effect. While this scepter has a limited amount of time it can be used, 500 minutes total, it is certainly a thematically powerful item.
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
. . -none-
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Beguiling Liar +4 to Bluff to tell a lie.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Sneak Attack +2d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at https://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
Feats: Extra rogue talent(Fast stealth)NO ROGUE TALENT FOR 1ST LEVEL ROGUE
We are playing 20 point buy, so that is not possible so far, and tieflings and aasimars are not allowed, i have made this
Elfs in this world has charisma instead of int.¨
And now that i think about, i think well gain more from taking 2 levels of rogue.
Rogue 2, Sorcerer 4, Arcane Trickster 2
Ability scores
Str: 12
Dex: 18 (+2 elf)
Con: 12 (-2 due to elf)
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 16 (+2 elf)
And the character will start lvl 8, unfortunatly without any magic equipment.
Elfs in this world has charisma instead of int.
Ability scores
Str: 12
Dex: 18 (+2 elf)
Con: 12 (-2 due to elf)
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 16 (+2 elf)
And the character will start lvl 8, unfortunatly without any magic equipment.
Your charisma is a bit low there, and should be your highest ability score. Your saving throw DC is the most important thing you have going for you on a build like this. Alternately, since you seem to value intelligence highly, go Wizard or Arcanist, or use the Sage Bloodline of the Sorcerer, and just focus your points into Intelligence instead of Charisma.
I am Nemesis wrote:
Feats: Extra rogue talent(Fast stealth)NO ROGUE TALENT FOR 1ST LEVEL ROGUE
You don't qualify for the Extra Rogue Talent feat, since 1st level Rogues don't have the requisite Rogue Talent class feature.
Yeah but i need charisma for being the face of our group, (we dont have any) I think 16 will be enough for some time, and later ill get magic items to increase it...
I dont know, the others in the party has like +2 magic weapons, and a crystal worth 25000 gp, but i think i might gain some gold, or i hope i do... so what spells would you think would be cool for loki..?
Yeah but i need charisma for being the face of our group, (we dont have any) I think 16 will be enough for some time, and later ill get magic items to increase it...
16 charisma would be marginally acceptable for a 1st level Sorcerer, not an 8th level one. The fact that you have fewer magical items than usual only makes this more severe, not less. Given your low equipment level, I would say you want at least 20 charisma by 8th level.
You don't strictly need charisma to be a party face, either. Class skill bonus and max ranks goes surprisingly far.
Magdyyret wrote:
so what spells would you think would be cool for loki..?
As a Rogue 1 / Sorcerer 4 / Trickster 3 you'll have two 3rd level spells, three 2nd level spells, and six 1st level spells (counting your bloodline spell).
For 3rd level spells, there's the old standby of Haste and Slow. They're very powerful buffs and debuffs, although if you're sticking with only 16 charisma I'd avoid straight debuffs and pick something with some utility like Fly or Stinking Cloud.
For 2nd level spells, Invisibility fits like a glove on a trickster so you'll probably take that. Glitterdust is an awesome debuff and anti-invisibility spell so it's well worth having. Create Pit is a lovely control spell, as is the Web spell. Mirror Image is an excellent defensive spell.
For 1st level spells, Mage Armor and Shield are good for not dying (always popular). Silent Image is a great trick to have up your sleeve and is very open-ended. Grease is a classic trick to pull. Enlarge Person is a great buff for your allies. Magic Missile is an awesome panic button. Protection from Evil is always helpful.
@OP: If you're going to play an Arcane Caster I strongly advise you NOT to multiclass. Regardless of what you think you're arcane caster PC might get from the multiclass, the loss of your top arcane spell level makes it not worth it. Martials can multiclass freely, as there's little down side, but full casters generally should never multiclass. Seriously, for any sort of full caster, multiclass is a trap.
Pathfinder spells increase in power exponentially. So a 4th level spell is about 4x more powerful than a 2nd level spell. If a full caster DOES decide to multiclass then the WORST WAY is to split 50/50. For example, a Sorcerer-4/Wizard-4 is pitifully feeble compared to either a Sorcerer-8 or Wizard-8.
An 8th level full caster has 4th level spells. A 4th level caster has 2nd level spells. Trying to manage an 8th level adventure with only 2nd level spells won't work out well.
I strongly suggest you either play an actual full arcane caster, who can provide much-needed Battlefield Control to your team, or play something else you actually want to play. It won't work well to be half arcane caster and half other stuff.
Regarding wealth and magic items, I'm totally with your GM. I don't like Pathfinder's 'bedecked in magic items' approach. This is the default play style in Pathfinder but it's certainly not required. Please don't criticize the OP's GM over this issue - it's a matter of personal preference. Personally, I always choose low-magic and no-toy games when I can find them.
Hmm i think im very interested in the arcane trickster, so i dont think ill go full caster, and what youre writing makes great sense, and i do understand it, and will therefore try to make it work out.
One can do a single class (albeit late entry) arcane trickster via a Wizard with VMC Rogue who takes the accomplished sneak attacker feat (retrain your 5th level feat to this).
So you can put your first 7 levels into wizard and thereafter arcane trickster.
Variant Multiclassing Rogue is actually a fairly strong choice since all of the things you're trading feats for (trapfinding, sneak attack, evasion, and uncanny dodge) are as good as or better than feats you'd take at those levels (provided you would use them).
[READ ME] When it comes to Loki's magic it's less about which specific spells a player chooses, and more about how the player uses them. For Loki magic isn't about incinerating his opponents or leaving them frozen in a permanent ice prison (well, most of the time). It's about misdirection, distraction, and making his enemies fight each other while keeping himself out of harm's way as much as he can. For instance, players who can charm enemies into fighting one another (POSSIBLY GETTING A WILLING SLAVE FIGHTER-TYPE if the charmed creature survives the fight), or get those enemies to stand aside and let the party pass without harm, are sort of what the concept is all about. Not all enemies can be affected by charms and illusions though. That's why it's important to select at least a few battlefield control spells like obscuring mist (Core Rule Book317), as well as spells that create walls to trap enemies and provide safety. Invisibility is Loki's best friend as well, particularly when it comes time to sneak away undetected while a decoy pretends to stand and fight.[/READ ME]
BUT... you did ask, soo, some favorites +must haves;
Spells:
0-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells (Cantrips)
Conjuration
*Acid Splash: Orb deals 1d3 acid damage.
Divination
Detect Magic: Detects all spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or small object.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Evocation
Dancing Lights: Creates torches or other lights.
Illusion
Ghost Sound: Figment sounds.
Transmutation
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
Open/Close: Opens or closes small or light things.
Universal
Arcane Mark: Inscribes a personal rune on an object or
creature (visible or invisible).
Prestidigitation: Performs minor tricks.
1st-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Abjuration
Hold Portal: Holds door shut.
Shield: Invisible disc gives +4 to AC, blocks magic missiles.
Conjuration
*Mage Armor: Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
*Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
Summon Monster I: Summons extraplanar creature to fight
for you.
Divination
*Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and
written languages.
Enchantment
*Charm Person: Makes one person your friend.
Hypnotism: Fascinates 2d4 HD of creatures.
Sleep: Puts 4 HD of creatures into magical slumber.
Evocation
Magic Missile: 1d4+1 damage; +1 missile per two levels
above 1st (max 5).
Illusion
Color Spray: Knocks unconscious, blinds, and/or stuns
weak creatures.
*Disguise Self: Changes your appearance.
*Silent Image: Creates minor illusion of your design.
*Ventriloquism: Throws voice for 1 min./level.
Necromancy
*Ray of Enfeeblement: Ray causes 1d6 Str penalty + 1 per 2
levels.
Transmutation
Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
Expeditious Retreat: Your base speed increases by 30 ft.
Feather Fall: Objects or creatures fall slowly.
Reduce Person: Humanoid creature halves in size.
2nd-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Abjuration
*Arcane Lock: Magically locks a portal or chest.
Conjuration
Acid Arrow: Ranged touch attack; 2d4 damage for 1 round
+ 1 round/three levels.
*Fog Cloud: Fog obscures vision.
*Glitterdust: Blinds creatures, outlines invisible creatures.
Summon Monster II: Summons extraplanar creature to
fight for you.
Summon Swarm: Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
Web: Fills 20-ft.-radius spread with sticky spiderwebs that
can grapple foes and impair movement.
Divination
*Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.
*See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
Enchantment
*Daze Monster: Living creature of 6 HD or less loses its
next action.
Hideous Laughter: Subject loses actions for 1 round/level.
*Touch of Idiocy: Subject takes 1d6 penalty to Int, Wis,
and Cha.
Evocation
Scorching Ray: Ranged touch attack deals 4d6 fire damage,
+ 1 ray/four levels (max 3).
Illusion
*Hypnotic Pattern: Fascinates 2d4 + level HD of creatures.
**Invisibility: Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until
it attacks.
*Minor Image: As silent image, plus some sound.
**Mirror Image: Creates decoy duplicates of you.
Necromancy
Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blinded or deafened.
False Life: Gain 1d10 temporary hp + 1/level (max +10).
Scare: Frightens creatures of less than 6 HD.
*Spectral Hand: Creates disembodied glowing hand to
deliver touch attacks.
Transmutation
*Alter Self: Assume form of a Small or Medium humanoid.
Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./
level.
Eagle’s Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
Pyrotechnics: Turns fire into blinding light or thick smoke.
**Rope Trick: As many as eight creatures hide in
extradimensional space.
3rd-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Abjuration
Dispel Magic: Cancels one magical spell or effect.
NondetectionM: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
Protection from Energy: Absorbs 12 points/level of damage
from one kind of energy.
Conjuration
Phantom Steed: Magic horse appears for 1 hour/level.
Sepia Snake SigilM: Creates text symbol that
immobilizes reader.
Stinking Cloud: Nauseating vapors, 1 round/level.
Summon Monster III: Summons extraplanar creature to
fight for you.
Divination
Enchantment
*Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.
*Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
*Suggestion: Compels a subject to follow stated course
of action.
Evocation
Fireball: 1d6 damage per level, 20-ft. radius.
Lightning Bolt: Electricity deals 1d6/level damage.
Tiny Hut: Creates shelter for 10 creatures.
Illusion
*Displacement: Attacks miss subject 50% of the time.
*Major Image: As silent image, plus sound, smell and thermal
effects.
Necromancy
Vampiric Touch: Touch deals 1d6 damage per two levels;
caster gains damage as temporary hp.
Transmutation
Blink: You randomly vanish and reappear for 1 round per
level.
Fly: Subject f lies at speed of 60 ft.
**Haste: One creature/level moves faster, +1 on attack rolls,
AC, and Ref lex saves.
Slow: One subject/level takes only one action/round, –1 to
AC, Ref lex saves, and attack rolls.
4th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Abjuration
Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser: Stops 1st- through 3rdlevel
spell effects.
StoneskinM: Grants DR 10/adamantine.
Conjuration
Dimension Door: Teleports you a short distance.
Solid Fog: Blocks vision and slows movement.
Summon Monster IV: Summons extraplanar creature to
fight for you.
Divination
ScryingF: Spies on subject from a distance.
Enchantment
*Charm Monster: Makes monster believe it is your ally.
*Confusion: Subjects behave oddly for 1 round/level.
Evocation
Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage;
you’re protected from heat or cold.
Wall of Fire: Deals 2d4 f ire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4
out to 20 ft. Passing through wall deals 2d6 damage+ 1/level.
Wall of Ice: Ice plane creates wall or hemisphere creates dome.
Illusion
Hallucinatory Terrain: Makes one type of terrain appear
like another (field as forest, or the like).
Illusory Wall: Wall, floor, or ceiling looks real, but
anything can pass through.
**Invisibility, Greater: As invisibility, but subject can attack
and stay invisible.
*Phantasmal Killer: Fearsome illusion kills subject or deals
3d6 damage.
*Rainbow Pattern: Lights fascinate 24 HD of creatures.
Shadow Conjuration: Mimics conjuration below 4th level,
but only 20% real.
Necromancy
Bestow Curse: –6 to an ability score; –4 on attack rolls,
saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action.
Enervation: Subject gains 1d4 negative levels.
Enlarge Person, Mass: 1 humanoid creature/level doubles
in size.
@OP: If you're going to play an Arcane Caster I strongly advise you NOT to multiclass.
Since Arcane Trickster can now be done with the loss of only a single level of spellcasting progression, it's quite viable. It's really not any worse than picking Arcanist over Wizard. With that said, going with the Sorcerer Arcane Trickster is going to be even slower, but it's hardly the end of the world and if it's what he wants to do it's quite tenable.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Variant Multiclassing Rogue is actually a fairly strong choice since all of the things you're trading feats for (trapfinding, sneak attack, evasion, and uncanny dodge) are as good as or better than feats you'd take at those levels (provided you would use them).
This is very true; it will mean your Arcane Trickster levels will be delayed and it will consume most of your feats, but if you're okay with that this lets you completely avoid the spellcasting level tax. Definitely a strong option.
concentrate on illusion / enchantment since you have a narrow window of spells known, always have magic missile.
SUGGESTION: make a primary character & a backup & then a backup to your backup. This way you can experiment, and learn what you like/what the party needs. OR JUST POLL YOUR GROUP.
I forgot the name of the AP, but i once reluctantly played a full caster cleric since i was a late comer to that game, whom LATER specialized in CRAFTing, ended up creating my groups armor/weapons, rings, wondrous items and a CONSTRUCT for myself. THAT was a great game.
I still dont know what to pick... im still thinking if i should go full caster, and i know that if i go full caster i either want wizard or sorceerer
These are two great class, and if you find that both are appealing then I suspect you'd be happy with either. They're very versatile and well-rounded class and you can do a lot of stuff with them. Ultimately you're the only one who can make a decision on what you want to play.
These are two great class, and if you find that both are appealing then I suspect you'd be happy with either. They're very versatile and well-rounded class and you can do a lot of stuff with them. Ultimately you're the only one who can make a decision on what you want to play.
I still think the skald might be a nice fit, but sadly I can't keep my eyes open. Arcane trickster is nice..sadly eyes cant stay open to complete thoughts :P
Okay, if i were to make a sorcerer i think the Arcane bloodline is cool, and versatile. Which feats, and such would you recommend? Metamagic as well. And do you have any better ideas for a bloodline.
I really like versatile spells like dimension door, and invisibility, and you get both with the arcane bloodline, and i would also prefer to be able to cast a bit of blasting.
I do also like the draconic bloodline. And yeah tbh i dont really like summoning, so i would mostly prefer blasting, and utility spells. Like dimension door, as i mentioned earlier.
FORT, REFLEX, WILL, UTILITY.
you should always have a "go to" spell for each of these saving throws.
fort= ack... can't think of any right now- good against rogue & caster types
reflex= fireball, lightning bolt- good against melee & casters types
will= hold person, hold monster- good against melee & rogue types
then consider utility spells like dimension door & invisibility
Thnx Nemesis, i will keep that in mind, but what do you think about bloodlines, there are so many and they are all really cool, i just want the best for what i want. So blasting and utility.
There are some downside to the sorcerer, first since they are cha based your skills will be lacking. I know you mentioned skills were up there for you. Granted you could probably be the face and that will be about it. I've never cared for blasting, you only get a few and what happens when it is resisted/saved or SR? Utility spells are nice...when needed. Honestly a lot of people favor summoning for the versatility/utility and conserving resources (you cast the one spell and it will last/contribute for a few rounds or it takes some hits that someone else would have taken)
This is slightly dated but here is a blaster guide Go to Guide.
Hopefully that will work :P Anyways the reason I go back to the skald is you stated that you tend to like to whack things along with skills..then lack of knowledge on the class. It sounds like if magic items are tough to get a person able to give the party +4 str/con would be really nice (if you want you can get yourself up to +8str/con) Along with some buff spells to help the party. Celestial totem lesser would make the heals more efficient too. You could have decent knowledge checks and still be the face of the party
Sounds like you're narrowing in on what you want. Arcane bloodline is basically the "default" Sorcerer choice if you can't decide on anything else; it has a balanced selection of powers that work well regardless of your spell selection. If you want to do blasting, the PrimalElemental wildblooded option is a bit better than draconic. If you like the other things that draconic offers it's still a fine bloodline, but if you're just after the blasting power then Primal Elemental is better.
If you don't like Summoning there's no need to know it, and blasting is easy to work into your spell loadout. For the purposes of blasting, Sorcerers have the blood havoc bloodline mutation. If you're going the draconic or elemental path you want to substitute this in place of your 1st level power. If you're going the arcane path, you want to take it as your first bloodline feat.
Human or half-human (half-elf, half-orc) is the ideal race for single-class Sorcerer. This is because humans have a special favored class option for Sorcerers: +1 spell known that's at least one level below your maximum you can cast. This is amazingly good and lets you greatly fill out your spell selection. You can always take Toughness or Cunning feats if you want the HP or skill points.
I believe this hits all your requirements. You'll have a total of 5 skill points per level, you'll have good blasting power, you'll have a broad variety of spells to fall back on. If you'd prefer to go with Primal Elemental or Draconic then you can take Blood Havoc at 1st level (substituting it for your 1st level power) and can then take Blood Intensity at 7th. You'll need to juggle around the spells a bit, since arcane gives a bonus 4th level spell known and a lot of the useful spells on that list are coming from the bloodline, but it's not a huge modification.
Oh i really like that build, lot of utility, and lots of nice spells. God its hard, because im so indecisive... im sorry for being all over the place, and not able to decide on what to play.
As far as that sorcerer build it seems pretty good, i guess you could play it with any of the half races too.
I think the reason i mostly wanted to play sorcerer was for the spontaneous casting, i find that cool. But even so, i feel like if you take fast study on wizard, and keep spell slots open the wizard will also be good. Gosh i dont know what to play.
I think what i mostly want is fun rp, but to also be good in combat if it should rise, which is why i also want to make a wizard, just by being that one guy that everyone looks at, and then they would be like, damn that guy is powerful. But its the same with sorcerers they just dont have as many spells..
"I think what i mostly want is fun rp, but to also be good in combat if it should rise, which is why i also want to make a wizard, just by being that one guy that everyone looks at, and then they would be like, damn that guy is powerful. But its the same with sorcerers they just dont have as many spells.."
Lol, first off I keep saying it but arcanist, you can cast like a wizard and a sorcerer. Want a bloodline? Take bloodline development. Familiar? Well familiar. Teleport? Dimensional slide. Wizard school? School understanding. The "Oh heck I don't have that spell that would be really nice to have...right now..? Quick study and a full round. The Oh I really want this to hurt? Potent magic. That isn't even talking about archetypes.
But here is the other thing to keep in mind. Sometimes a caster needs to know when to conserve power...casting every round is sometimes not viable..it gets easier as you get higher up. But you pretty much wont be able to run up and smack things every round like you might want. A skald is a good compromise so you can get your hands wet with magic while still hurting the bad guys ad with lingering performance you can pretty easily provide rage every combat before touching your spells.
Also, I don't know about how your group dynamic works, but sometimes an understanding is reached that the most mechanically powerful characters are least entitled to the spotlight in situations where game mechanics are largely irrelevant (like most roleplaying encounters). As an 8th level full arcane caster, you are far and away the most mechanically powerful thing in the party (perhaps the entire game) so it's probably polite to not hog the spotlight unless nobody else wants to do that sort of thing.
Since you're inserting this character into a party with 3 martials, I would exercise extreme care in "not stepping on people's toes." One reason I advocate for the skald is that you are explicitly a cool support character. A wizard/sorcerer/arcanist runs the risk of becoming a "hero with bodyguards" past a certain point.
Ekibus damn that seems fun, and i also looked at the guide, i just think that the reason im a bit sceptical about it is because i havent ever seen one, and they are strangers to me..
So which exploits can increase how many arcane points you get in your resoivour, i guess you want to fill it up, but the fact that you have to expend spells to do so is sad, and in the text it said there were arcane exploits that gave you the oppurtunetiy to refill it.
Wizard, Sorcerer, and Arcanist are all great choices, and if you're dithering between them then I suspect you'd be happy with any of the above. Remember, no matter which of the three you pick you'll always have scrolls and wands to fall back on. Wizards with Fast Study and Arcanists with Quick Study can both pull niche spells out very quickly when the need arises, but need to manage their daily resources to do so (Wizards have to leave spell slots empty, Arcanists need to ration their arcane reservoir), while Sorcerers have more spells at their immediate finger-tips without having to do anything special.
I completely understand the hesitation, but given the discussion we've had in this thread over the last few days I'm fairly convinced that you will be happy with any of the above.
Also I just realized that I gave you a 9th level build for your 8th level character. You'll need to drop one 2nd, two 3rd, and three 4th level spells (that's how many you'll get when you level up from 8th to 9th). In any case, it does illustrate how the Sorcerer really fills out as he gains levels. That pattern is going to repeat for your whole career, getting a few spells when you first reach a new spell level then watching it fill out until it's a broad selection.
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Since you're inserting this character into a party with 3 martials, I would exercise extreme care in "not stepping on people's toes."
Having a few buff spells to share the love helps. Hitting them up with Haste or Fly, or dispelling a nasty debuff, goes a long way. If you do get a swarm of weak enemies then fireball could hog the spotlight, but honestly that's entirely predictable if the GM throws it at you.
Some people either love or hate them, I really like the flexibility and since I normally don't play full caster that was the best choice to me. Really I'd go occultist archetype but you would want to avoid summons. There used to be a better guide something like silver bullet but i can't find that guide anymore.
Dasrak i understand that, and wonder the sorcerer can get fairly many spells if you use all your favoured class bonuses in to get extra spells.. and the build you gave is totally good, and do you think the sorcerer will be better the later into the game he goes, (higher level) cause i think well be playing this plot to lvl 18-20 ish
And there is an elf variant i can choose, its the same as the normal except it gains cha instead of int..
But i still think the half races and human are better cuz i will get more spells, take that favoured class and pick arcane bloodline and i will get many spells
Both are fine, but between the two I would take the top one. At the end of the day more spell slots and higher spell DC's is the most valuable gift you can give your Sorcerer. I wouldn't take charisma any lower than 20 on a standard Sorcerer build like this, though.
Magdyyret wrote:
And there is an elf variant i can choose, its the same as the normal except it gains cha instead of int..
But i still think the half races and human are better cuz i will get more spells, take that favoured class and pick arcane bloodline and i will get many spells
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. That favored class bonus is just too good to pass up.
if you want to up your skills, take the Wildblooded archetype, the Sage bloodline (moves your casting attribute to intelligence), put everything you put into CHA into INT, boil at high temperature, stirring frequently and viola!
