Viable character for PFS organized play?


Advice


I have a character idea in mind, but I'd like to make sure he doesn't lag so far behind better optimized characters that he becomes an albatross 'round the party neck.

I'm fully aware this character could be better optimized, just looking to make sure he's playable since I'm new to Pathfinder and (relatively) low ability point build characters.

Right now I'm looking at Dawnflower Dervish Bard 1, Tempered Champion / Knight of Coins Paladin 4, Scaled Fist Un-Monk all the rest of the way.

Stats would be
Str 8
Dex 18 (16 points +2 Aasimar Subtype)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 18 (16 points +2 Aasimar Subtype)

DD Bard lets me dump Str out the gate, and by level 7 I'm picking up Crusaders Flurry Scimitar to get that sweet extra attack.

Tempered Champion Pal nets me weapon focus for free at character level 5, and knight of coins keeps my skill point progression sitting at a neat 4/level. I considered Virtuoso Bravo instead of Dawnflower D, but there are no good deities that match with the rapier (or similar weapons) for Crusader's Flurry. Aside's, DD Bard gets me positive damage out the gate.

The idea here here is a Sword Saint of Serenrae who can substitute as party face in a pinch. I don't need him to be a powerhouse, just competent.

Definitely need to pick up toughness @ lvl 1, even after that point his HP are still a problem.

A/c sits at 18 for most of the build outside magic item boosts (chain shirt until monk levels kick in to add Cha). Getting Barkskin helps, but doesn't come in till character level 11 thanks to the Scaled Fist Mandatory elemental fury ki power.

Saves would, happily, be pretty excellent. My big concern would be damage. Until he picks up the additional attack at 7 he's just not contributing much to harm opponents.

Thoughts, suggestions or criticisms?

Silver Crusade

This character is definitely viable. He brings more than enough to the table to be worth while. Skills and some spell support go a long way. And making almost all saves has a value in itself (fairly often the group desparately needs somebody to hold the line while they recover from failed saves).

His damage really isn't that bad. d6+6 (assuming dancing) is decent.

As you say, hes no powerhouse. But you really don't need a powerhouse in PFS. He contributes.

I've seen a lot worse characters at the table.

You're definitely going to want to get a keen rapier at some point. And should definitely throw a fair bit of money to get your AC up. You're a front liner and will need that AC

Edit: I would be tempted to dump str all the way down to 7. You don't need a lot of gear (mithril chain shirt, mithral buckler, scimitar) and ant haul is a thing :-). But I love int and skill points :-)


Thanks, that puts my mind at ease!

Oh! I had completely forgotten the dervish dance ability, that and Sleep should help quite a bit at low levels. I wouldn't be able to keep it up too long, but should serve him for one or two really challenging battles.

And yup, a keen scimitar is on the agenda at 1st opportunity, and all the AC boosting items he can get his hands on.

Frontliner is the goal, glad to hesr he's good for it.

Hmm, yeah I was considering dumping strength further, maybe to put Con at 13 to give myself something to do with the lvl 4 ability score increase... Just a little concerned about how that looks from a meta-gamey perspective.

Silver Crusade

Halcyon_Janissary wrote:
Just a little concerned about how that looks from a meta-gamey perspective.

PFS varies a lot by lodge, so take the following with a huge grain of salt.

I personally have no problem with all the Str 7 wizards and Cha 7 characters out there. The rules strongly encourage this kind of mini-maxing and you can't blame players for taking advantage of it.

That said, I DO think Paizo made a mistake in allowing as much stat dumping as they do. I like the old 3.5 standard - at most 1 stat below 10 and that has to be 8+. But Paizo made the rules, the players get to optimize within those rules

The players of the Int, Cha, Wis 7 barbarians don't seem to care much about the meta game perspective :-). Why should you? :-).

Grand Lodge

My question is- Do you have a boon to create an Aasimir character?

You mentioned you are new, and sadly Aasimir is one of several races locked behind boons to become playable.


pauljathome wrote:


The players of the Int, Cha, Wis 7 barbarians don't seem to care much about the meta game perspective :-). Why should you? :-).

Hah, point!

Selvaxri wrote:

My question is- Do you have a boon to create an Aasimir character?

You mentioned you are new, and sadly Aasimir is one of several races locked behind boons to become playable.

Argh, nope I'm boonless. Any chance the Ifrit PC race is newbie selectable?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

The four main elemental planetouched are indeed available without a boon.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
The four main elemental planetouched are indeed available without a boon.

Thanks!

Hmm, ifrit descendency for me then; and just a wee little bit more foolish. Fits in with the Sarenrae theme at least.

Dark Archive

"Foolish? A bold claim against those descended from the ANCIENT AND NOBLE EFREETI!"


Kane Elish wrote:
"Foolish? A bold claim against those descended from the ANCIENT AND NOBLE EFREETI!"

=D


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Kane Elish wrote:
"Foolish? A bold claim against those descended from the ANCIENT AND NOBLE HOTHEADS!"

Fixed that for you!


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Halcyon_Janissary wrote:

Right now I'm looking at Dawnflower Dervish Bard 1, Tempered Champion / Knight of Coins Paladin 4, Scaled Fist Un-Monk all the rest of the way.

Stats would be
Str 8
Dex 18 (16 points +2 Aasimar Subtype)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 18 (16 points +2 Aasimar Subtype)

* Knight of Coins doesn't jibe well with the way PFS doles out treasure or item access. Receiving Perception, Use Magic Device, and Detect Magic are nice, but they exactly duplicate what you'd already be getting from the bard dip. The mercies the archetype receives are colorful, but less useful than the "un-suck thyself" defenses of the core class. The extra skills are nice, but what do you really need? Your wisdom is so low that I wouldn't bother with Perception anyway. Everybody else in the party will have it, so put your skill points elsewhere.

* Note that the current version of Dawnflower Dervish does not grant Weapon Finesse.

* If you go chained monk, you'll be +4 to your will save (off four levels) and can spend ki for extra attacks with any flurrying weapon, not just unarmed strikes.

Quote:
Definitely need to pick up toughness @ lvl 1, even after that point his HP are still a problem.

* You are a paladin; you can Lay on Hands as a swift-action. Do not take Toughness; instead take Fey Foundling at 1st level.

* starting array; consider this slight alteration, which lets you quickly get your primary stat to 20th at 4th:

STR: 7
DEX+ 19 or 17 (aasimar 17,15,12,12,10,7 20pt array)
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA+ 17 or 19

Build 1:
01 paladin1 (core), Fey Foundling
02 bard1 [Dawnflower Dervish]
03 paladin2 [divine grace], Weapon Finesse
04 paladin3 DEX>20 or CHA>20
05 paladin4 Greater Mercy or Extra Performance
06 monk1 [chained][Scaled Fist][feat]
07 monk2 [feat], Crusader's Flurry
08 monk3 (other of DEX or CHA>18)
09 monk4 [Ki pool], Extra Ki or Greater Mercy or Extra Performance
10 paladin5 ...etc.

...this is similar to what you have now. Features three weapon attacks with Crusader's Flurry at 7th, and four weapon attacks at 9th with Ki. Positives: awesome saving throws. Annoyances: Move-action to activate battle-dance, mediocre AC, only two smites/day.

Build 2:
01 Bloodrager1 (Id Rager[Hatred:Weapon Finesse]/Urban), Fey Foundling
02 paladin1
03 paladin2 [divine grace], Extra Rage
04 paladin3 [Mercy:Fatigued], DEX>20 or CHA>20
05 paladin4 Greater Mercy
06 monk1 [chained][Scaled Fist][feat]
07 monk2 [feat], Crusader's Flurry
08 monk3 (other of DEX or CHA>18)
09 monk4 [Ki pool], Extra Ki
10 paladin5 ...etc.

...substituting bard for bloodrager saves a feat and tightens action economy (raging is a free action as opposed to battle dance's move-action). You'll controlled-rage for strength at low level, then switch to dex-raging after acquiring an Agile weapon. Once the weapon is Agile/Furious, you'll be +2 to hit and +1 damage versus the bard build with a +2/Agile scimitar; AC will also be +2 better. You'll need to pick up

Silver Crusade

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Unless you're going to switch weapons down the road, there's no need for Weapon Finesse.

Dervish Dance wrote:
When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls.

The advantage of taking Dawnflower Dervish as our first level is that you get to not suck right off the bat, at the cost of one HP after that.

I'll also point out that Halfling is the superior race for this type of build.


What he said about halflings.


Hey Slim, thanks for the advice; I'll try and sort it piece by piece.

Slim Jim wrote:


* Knight of Coins doesn't jibe well with the way PFS doles out treasure or item access. Receiving Perception, Use Magic Device, and Detect Magic are nice, but they exactly duplicate what you'd already be getting from the bard dip. The mercies the archetype receives are colorful, but less useful than the "un-suck thyself" defenses of the core class. The extra skills are nice, but what do you really need? Your wisdom is so low that I wouldn't bother with Perception[/url] anyway. Everybody else in the party will have it, so put your skill points elsewhere.

I'm not interested in the extra class skills, just the extra skill points. 8 Skill points aren't anything to sneeze at, and good for filling out the social skills I want him to have. Since I won't be going more than 4 levels in Paladin I'm pretty ambivalent about the mercies.

Slim Jim wrote:
* Note that the current version of Dawnflower Dervish does not grant Weapon Finesse.

Unless there's been an errata to Dervish Dance one doesn't need weapon finesse as long as one is using the Scimitar, the Dawnflower Dervish Bard grants this feat for free at level one.

Slim Jim wrote:
* If you go chained monk, you'll be +4 to your will save (off four levels) and can spend ki for extra attacks with any flurrying weapon, not just unarmed strikes.

Crusader's Flurry lets me flurry with a scimitar, it's the reason for going Pal 4 rather than two. Further, the level of bard and 4 of paladin (and divine grace) make his will save pretty potent already.

Slim Jim wrote:
* You are a paladin; you can Lay on Hands as a swift-action. Do not take Toughness; instead take Fey Foundling at 1st level.

I'm at most a level 4 paladin, I won't be able to depend much on Paladin healing. However, taking Fey Foundling at 1st level and then retraining to toughness around level 5 or 6 might makes sense...

Slim jim wrote:

* starting array; consider this slight alteration, which lets you quickly get your primary stat to 20th at 4th:

STR: 7
DEX+ 19 or 17 (aasimar 17,15,12,12,10,7 20pt array)
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA+ 17 or 19

Build 1:
01 paladin1 (core), Fey Foundling
02 bard1 [Dawnflower Dervish]
03 paladin2 [divine grace], Weapon Finesse
04 paladin3 DEX>20 or CHA>20
05 paladin4 Greater Mercy or Extra Performance
06 monk1 [chained][Scaled Fist][feat]
07 monk2 [feat], Crusader's Flurry
08 monk3 (other of DEX or CHA>18)
09 monk4 [Ki pool], Extra Ki or Greater Mercy or Extra Performance...

I don't need weapon finesse with the 1st level in bard (and also why I'd go with bard 1st).


PCScipio wrote:

Unless you're going to switch weapons down the road, there's no need for Weapon Finesse.

Dervish Dance wrote:
When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls.

The advantage of taking Dawnflower Dervish as our first level is that you get to not suck right off the bat, at the cost of one HP after that.

I'll also point out that Halfling is the superior race for this type of build.

Yup, you've got it precisely.

Hmm, the Halfling stat array does make more sense, but I admit I'm leery of playing a halfling since . . . well, I just don't want to play a halfling; already pretty short IRL xD. The Kitsune race has the same stat array, but I'm not exactly keen on the 'fox person' angle either.

Actually, the Half Elf racial trait Kindred Raised could work; nets me +2 Cha and +2 to one other ability score at the cost of ehh, most of my other racial abilities, but nothing I'll miss so much as a stat array closer to what I want.


Halcyon_Janissary wrote:
Unless there's been an errata to Dervish Dance one doesn't need weapon finesse as long as one is using the Scimitar, the Dawnflower Dervish Bard grants this feat for free at level one.
But then you're stuck with scimitars. (Although I suppose you could use Effortless Lace to lighten it up...but if lace is available, then a huge number of weapon choices open up for Piranha Strike.)
Quote:
I'm at most a level 4 paladin, I won't be able to depend much on Paladin healing. However, taking Fey Foundling at 1st level and then retraining to toughness around level 5 or 6 might makes sense...

If you go halfling and pick paladin as your favored class, you'll heal an extra 2pts with every LoH.


Slim Jim wrote:
But then you're stuck with scimitars. (Although I suppose you could use Effortless Lace to lighten it up...but if lace is available, then a huge number of weapon choices open up for Piranha Strike.)

I'm not sure what the issue with "being stuck scimitars" is. 18-20 on a flurry weapon makes it excellent for crit-fishing. Plenty of characters get stuck with only one type of weapon after going through weapon focus, specialization, etc. My strength of 7 or 8 also means my damage is always at a handicap unless I'm willing to dip three levels in rogue or anchor myself to an agile weapon. Neither possibility sounds worth it.

It is unfortunate that I'm missing out on Pirhana Strike, but could be worse. Also, unfortunately, effortless lace isn't PFS legal.

Quote:
If you go halfling and pick paladin as your favored class, you'll heal an extra 2pts with every LoH.

Still not interested in halfling.

With just Fey Foundling At level 6 that's 2d6+2; 6 times per day, but the use of swift actions for LoH has to compete with the extra attack for 1 Ki... hmm, yeah something to think about, thanks.


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A 4th-level halfling paladin (independent of his other levels) with Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy, and the racial favored-class bonus, heals 3d6+8 with LoH at least five times per day (before gear or stat-leveling). He has the same racial adjustments as the assimar choice, and is +1 attack and +1 AC. The swift-action economy probably won't interfere that often (i.e., you declare a smite early when you're unlikely to have a full-attack, and most LoH will occur after the combat is over).


I'm not saying the halfling doesn't make mechanical sense, I'm just saying I -don't- want to play one =P.

You have convinced me on the Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy angle however. All other things considered that would make my build...

Str 7
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 11
Cha 17

I won't miss the additional +1 cha much till level 4 when I improve it, and this has a much more respectable HP progression. Kindred Raised Half Elf lets me dump Str while also getting +2 to cha and 1 other stat (in this case Dex).

1. DDervish Bard F: Fey Foundling; BF: Dervish Dance
2. Tempered Champ / KoC Pal
3. Pal F: Greater Mercy
4. Pal (+1 Cha)
5. Pal F: Toughness (retrained to Crusader's Flurry at lvl 6) BF: Weapon Focus Scimitar
6. Scaled Fist Monk, BF Dodge, BF Imp Unarmed Strike
7. Monk2, F: Crane Style, BF: Combat Reflexes, Evasion
8. Monk3 (+1 Int), Ki pwr: Elemental Fury (mandatory due to scaled fist)
9. Monk4 F: Flickering Step (retrained to Crane Wing at lvl 13)
10. Monk5 Style Strk Flying Kick
11. Monk6 F: Dim Awareness, Ki pwr: Barkskin
12. Monk7
13. Monk8 F: Dim Assault, Ki pwr: Abundant Step
14. Monk9 (Imp. Evasion)
15. Monk10 F: Dim Dervish, BF: Imp Critical (Scimitar), Ki pwr: Restoration, Style Strike: ??
16. Monk 11, Extra Flurry Attack

Then 17 - 20 (if the game even lasts that long) are just gravy. Maybe I spend a few levels in Paladin or Bard to bolster my will save, or even fighter to pick up some bonus feats.

Silver Crusade

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@OP: I do hope that pitiful 7 Strength doesn't bite you. I see a lot of STR-dumped characters in PFS. They generally do OK. When they get bit it's often over Encumbrance. Do make certain your gear-weight still works with a 7 strength. I've seen STR-7 PCs wearing heavy armor and carrying 130 lbs of gear ... Don't be that guy ;-)


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Magda Luckbender wrote:
@OP: I do hope that pitiful 7 Strength doesn't bite you. I see a lot of STR-dumped characters in PFS. They generally do OK. When they get bit it's often over Encumbrance. Do make certain your gear-weight still works with a 7 strength. I've seen STR-7 PCs wearing heavy armor and carrying 130 lbs of gear ... Don't be that guy ;-)

Yikes you're right. Once I hit monk it's no issue; but I gotta depend on light armor till then. Hmm, would put my AC at 17 and weight at 22 lbs with a scimitar and hide shirt (of 23 lbs max). Suppose I can have a few potions in my belt and everything else in a pack ready to drop at a moments notice xD.


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One thing you can do in PFS is a full rebuild immediately before levelling up to level 2. So you could take Bard as your first level while you're playing, then before levelling up rebuild so Paladin was your first level and take Bard as level 2. Free bonus hit point.


Halcyon_Janissary wrote:

I'm not saying the halfling doesn't make mechanical sense, I'm just saying I -don't- want to play one =P.

You have convinced me on the Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy angle however. All other things considered that would make my build...

Str 7
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 11
Cha 17

Don't start with four odd stats, those 11s are just a complete waste. The 17,15,12,12,10,7 20pt array is very dense with bonuses, which is why I used that in a minmax build. (Note also that, if you can drag yourself to play one, a halfling's dump stat is strength, and his encumbrance is actually better at 5 than an assimar's at 7 because his small-sized armor and weapons are half-weight.)

12 Con is enough for the paladin with Fey Foundling and Greater Mercy. (Paradoxically, a 14 may not be enough for those without them.)

Quote:
I won't miss the additional +1 cha much till level 4 when I improve it, and this has a much more respectable HP progression. Kindred Raised Half Elf lets me dump Str while also getting +2 to cha and 1 other stat (in this case Dex).

You won't get the size bonuses, however, since (like the assimar) you remain medium-sized.

Regards the longer-term build, I think you're better off as a long-haul paladin rather than more monk (there's a lot of evil in PFS). Another option is replacing scaled fist monk with ninja, picking up sneak-attack and cha-based ki attacks with only two levels rather than four, as well as retaining armor.


Slim, I appreciate the effort you're putting forward, but I think you're losing the thread. The question wasn't how do I min/max the character in mind, but whether or not the character I have in mind is playable without being a burden on the rest of the party. Given the other replies, it looks like the answer to that question is that he 8s viable.

In any case the fey foundling + greater mercy trick looks like it'll be very helpful, so thanks for that tip.


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It's difficult to build a paladin that's a burden on the party. (But monks? ...easy.)


Slim Jim wrote:
It's difficult to build a paladin that's a burden on the party. (But monks? ...easy.)

Yup, that's what I've heard. Given that this character is a a dex focused monk/paladin, I figured it made sense to see if folks saw any glaring weaknesses I overlooked.


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Being immune to fear and having huge bonuses versus other crap, and being able to patch up your owies as a switch-action, is one of the strongest option packages in the game. --Everybody can dish it out; few can take it.


Halcyon_Janissary wrote:
In any case the fey foundling + greater mercy trick looks like it'll be very helpful, so thanks for that tip.

See if you can also find room for Extra Channel; it'll let you LoH an extra four times per day.

Lay on Hands goodie-list:

* 1d6 (base Loh per two levels of paladin)
* 1d6 (Greater Mercy)
* 2d6 (Bracers of the Merciful Knight)
* +2hp per LoH die (Fey Foundling)
* +1hp per LoH die (Inheritor's Light longsword}
* +1hp per two levels paladin (halfling FCB; also some other races)
==
x/day (2, +Cha bonus +4[Extra Channel) +2 Extra LoH, +1 [Armor of the Pious], ?)

--And don't forget to buy a bucket of Meditation Crystals.

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