Well the problem with saying it exists on the same plane is you can now use spells from the plane it's created within to the demiplane without worrying about crossing a planar boundary. And I'm fairly certain that's a non starter. Most spells do not work on anything within an extradimensional space because like someone within a Rope Trick the spell can't reach them. It's more accurate to say you can only access the demiplane from the plane it was created within or in this case from the Ethereal. Which as long as you can only exit the Ethereal while under the effects of Etherealness to the Material Plane means it is essentially isolated. This is also explicitly mentioned in the text of Create Lesser Demiplane.
portion of the spell text for Create Lesser Demiplane wrote: When you finish casting this spell, you may bring yourself and up to seven other creatures to the plane automatically by joining hands in a circle. The demiplane is another plane of existence, and therefore is outside the range of any spell or ability that cannot affect or reach other planes. Creatures can only enter the plane by the use of planar travel magic such as astral projection, etherealness, or plane shift. You are considered "very familiar" with your entire demiplane. The last part is a bit weird ... none of those spells have any 'familiarity' text at least none mentioning the term "very familiar" far as I recall.
We do have a working definition of Demiplane provided in the Environment section of the CRB
CRB, Environment wrote: Demiplanes: This catchall category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across. There are countless demiplanes adrift in reality, and while most are connected to the Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane, some are cut off entirely from the transitive planes and can only be accessed by well-hidden portals or obscure magic spells. Now this does mean all demiplanes are extradimensional spaces but the reverse does not necessarily follow, i.e. Rope Trick or the 'inside' of a Bag of Holding are extradimensional spaces but not necessarily demiplanes.
And none of this really answers the question as to how our Rogue might follow them but it is an interesting tangent.
I think 2nd edition had some planar book specify that demiplanes appeared as bubbles on the Ethereal or Astral, with a door/portal opening on to the relevant spot. The currently Create Demiplane language is probably a hangover from that. There also used to be a lot of specifics about how exactly you transitioned from the Astral to a connected outer plane that isn't present anymore, and I think it was similar to demiplanar connections to the Astral/Ethereal.
Incidentally, the "how do you get a focus for your new demiplane" question from before is probably moot. You need a fork as a focus to create the demiplane - it seems obvious the intent is that the fork you use is attuned to your new plane automatically as part of creating it.
That sounds a bit like the description of the Spelljammer setting where various planes were within something called the Ether (not quite either the Astral or Ethereal) that various 'spelljammer' ships could travel about in visiting the planes. It made possible things such as travelling between the Forgotten Realms, with its own bubble, and Greyhawk and its bubble, and Dragonlance etc.. I don't really remember how the various Outer,Inner and other non Prime Material planes fit into the scheme at this point, its been too long.
Far as I recall the Create Demiplane line of spells really didn't exist prior to Pathfinder. There was a 3.0/3.5 Epic spell called Genesis which could create a new plane but nothing pre-Epic that I can remember anymore.
And that is part of the difficulties with the rules is that they are a mashup of all the previous guidelines and rules which often used odd terminology such as non-dimensional space (instead of calling it extradimensional), for example. And since for the most part travelling to and through the planes is often a high if not very high level gameplay it suffers from a lack of editorial oversight and writing as those resources get dedicated to the level of play the majority of the player base experience. Basically it falls heavily to the individual GM and his group to decide how to handle a lot of the questions that arise.
-How do you get back? Only the Greater version mentions an option for a Portal/Gate.
-Plane Shift is a useless option to return. The precision limits of 5-500 miles means you'll invariable 'miss' most finite size-limited demiplanes. It's a whole lot of permanent castings of Create Demiplane to get something more than 5 miles across. Nowhere in any addition of the game doesn't it give any guidelines or rules as to what happens when you attempt to Plane Shift to a size limited demiplane smaller than 5 miles in its greatest dimension. At least none I ever recall seeing.
-If as postulated above Etherealness doesn't allow you to exit onto the demiplane ... well then that's out.
-Do you get a color pool to form if you use Astral Travel?(speaking of concepts from earlier editions). Or does it simply exist permanently as a feature if created from the Astral. Or does the concept not exist in Pathfinder?
-Does the text referring to the demiplanes boundaries refer only to an observer on the demiplane? What, if anything, is seen from outside the demiplane?
-What is the significance of "you are considered 'very familiar' with your entire demiplane"? If the Astral isn't present then Teleportation isn't possible. You can't Scry a location and Clairvoyance/Clairaudience doesn't function across planes. Is it just so you know you can use Clairvoyance within your own demiplane to look behind a door etc.? Seems a tad obvious you'd know what the plane looks like given you created it.
Honestly, if I was running things demiplanes would absolutely be little pockets of subreality separate from the larger plane. I would say more like asteroids in space than bubbles (you know something is there but have no idea what's inside). That being said, under that method there's literally no way you're getting to a wizard's private demiplane aside from somehow luring them out and hitching a ride with them when they return. Which I don't know if there's a spell or feat for, honestly. Maybe? Either way, the answer to the OP's question is then no, it's just impossible. I suppose I should say that technically you could check every single demiplane on the Astral and hope for the best but I think they're probably created faster than you could find them.
Now the version I proposed (again, which I wouldn't use personally) is supported by the text (and contradicted, but the important part is that it's at least partly supported) and would allow the Rogue to reach the demiplane without needing GM intervention of some form. Maybe, eventually, as "infinite" and "10 minutes a level" mean the Rogue probably needs to pick up Find the Path in a per day use, maybe with a side of immortality to actually finish the job.
Variation on the original question (which I think will be a lot harder to pull off): What if you're not supposed to kill the Wizard, but instead tasked with conducting ongoing surveillance on them?
UnArcaneElection wrote: Variation on the original question (which I think will be a lot harder to pull off): What if you're not supposed to kill the Wizard, but instead tasked with conducting ongoing surveillance on them?
A lot of what will work will depend on what is known about the wizard to begin with. How well known or famous are they? Are they a paranoid recluse or a public individual such as the 'court wizard'? And obviously some of that will effect the difficulty of any assassination attempts as well.
1) If the wizard has cohorts, hirelings, laborers then become one of them. Now if they are a paranoid recluse with only golems or undead for friends then you might have a problem.
2) Depending on how your DM views "possession" of something perhaps plant a small item on the wizard or very close associate, something very familiar and distinctively marked that can be tracked or used for divination spells particularly if the DM still considers it "yours" while it remains undiscovered by the wizard. Of course that could mean it gets left behind if the wizard teleports or destroyed if they decide to 'clean' themselves by walking through a Prismatic Wall or Sphere.
@Kayerloth (In)famous to have someone want them murdered. The original challenge was for a "properly built wizard", so assume paranoid.
Also, the entire challenge is supposed to, for all intents and purposes, supposed to run the 'rules' as PFS legal. So, the GM is mainly an arbiter between two rules lawyers.
Even an extremely paranoid wizard has to interact somehow with the world(s) 'around' him and you do not get to be a god wizard without leaving a footprint on those worlds. If he currently doesn't ever leave or interact somehow with anything beyond his stronghold he is basically living in his own large gilded prison and spying on or assassinating him is essentially pointless and unnecessary.
And I don't think any high level character is going to be easy to find if they don't wish to be. A high level wizard merely has some very specific tools in his toolbox (Create Demiplane line, Mindblank, Screen, etc.) that one can specifically plan against. But then again your high level Rogue can certainly find ways to access those magics as well, as can any other high level character. It's going to come down to old fashioned investigation and intrigue. And the best way to get the information you need is going to start with learning how they go about interacting with the worlds beyond their stronghold and as well to learn everything you can about that footprint they left behind as the rose to god wizard status. Knowledge is Power as they say. At minimum you've got a name or alias the target wizard is known by or uses and build up your profile from there.
This spell just came up in another thread:
Mark of the Blood:
Archives of Nethys wrote: PFS Legal Mark of Blood
Source Adventurer's Guide pg. 160, Faction Guide pg. 61
School transmutation [curse]; Level arcanist 2, bloodrager 2, inquisitor 2, redmantisassassin 2, sorcerer 2, witch 2, wizard 2
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a drop of your blood)
Effect
Range touch
Target one weapon touched
Duration 1 minute and permanent (see text)
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Description
You place a drop of your blood on a weapon and charge it with magic so that you transfer a small amount of your life essence to the next living creature you strike with the weapon. Thereafter, you can spend a move action to know the direction and general distance of that creature. The target can negate this effect with a successful Will save. You must strike a creature within 1 minute of casting this spell or the magic is wasted, but once the mark of blood takes effect it is permanent until dispelled or removed via an effect like remove curse.
If you can strike our wizard it may give you a fighting chance but there are a number of issues created by the spell text. The description calls out 'living creatures' but does not specify such in the Target line and there is no text saying something along the lines of 'if the target leaves the plane the caster is on he can no longer follow the target (or something similar) which given its spell level is suspiciously missing I'd say. Namely its going to need clarification from the DM as to how it functions. Ultimately if I were the DM it wouldn't quite be the answer but it cracks the door open to the possibility of higher level spells/magic perhaps doing the trick.
Edit: Nevermind little details like it has both an SR and Will save involved to work ... against a Wizard.
Edit2: Well duh Mr Kayerloth the Target line says the weapon is the target/range Touch. But even more that hollers for more info in place about what if the target leaves the plane the caster is on while the curse is active.
Wait. Random question. You CAN disjunct a Demiplane. You CAN find said demiplane in either the Astral or Ethereal plane. Do you have to be INSIDE the plane to disjunct it?
Zarius wrote: Wait. Random question. You CAN disjunct a Demiplane. You CAN find said demiplane in either the Astral or Ethereal plane. Do you have to be INSIDE the plane to disjunct it? No one knows. There are no rules for finding demiplanes in the Astral and Ethereal (just references that they exist there and some seek them out) or how you can enter/interact with one when you do find it.
Xenocrat wrote: Zarius wrote: Wait. Random question. You CAN disjunct a Demiplane. You CAN find said demiplane in either the Astral or Ethereal plane. Do you have to be INSIDE the plane to disjunct it? No one knows. There are no rules for finding demiplanes in the Astral and Ethereal (just references that they exist there and some seek them out) or how you can enter/interact with one when you do find it. And that is a large part of the issue if one wishes to stick strictly to RAW or PFS only or similar caveats. A lot of how it works starting with the Cosmology of the campaign setting are left up to the DM. For standard PF campaign the answer is you'd have to be within the demiplane because:
Spell Text of Create Demiplane, Lesser wrote: The demiplane is another plane of existence, and therefore is outside the range of any spell or ability that cannot affect or reach other planes. Neither the Dispel Magic spells or Disjunction reach across planes (Medium or Close range respectively)
This would also be true for other campaigns if they wish to stick to RAW.
As for finding a specific demiplane (a needle in one of an infinite number of haystacks): Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore, Discern Location, Find the Path, Commune and probably quite a few more spells might help (not to discount Wish or Miracle but they almost always apply to such lists :P). Sages and others with appropriate knowledge(s) could help.
And then there are all the campaign/DM dependent methods that might be available. There might be entire races that travel the Astral or Ethereal planes (see Githyanki for one example) and might create records on the various demiplanes they come across. Maybe some deity/demigod somewhere sits in their tower and catalogs the Multiverse writing in new pages as new demiplanes are created or otherwise come into being. The possibilities are limited by only the DM's imagination and creativity. It'll be the Rogues job to pry those secrets loose to find his Wizard.
Find the Path is by far the fastest of those choices to find the demiplane. Contact Other Plane/Commune is basically yes/no only, the only way you're finding a place with it is with a binary search. Legend Lore and Discern Location are Divination magic, foiled by Mind Blank. Discern Location even calls it out by name. And if you aim for the Wizard's private demiplane with Legend Lore, I'm pretty sure it doesn't count as "important". That would seem in direct contradiction to "private demiplane they never told anyone about".
As for the Wizard interacting with the rest of the world... why? Demiplanes let you basically recreate the whole world. They grow food and make water. Simulacrum can do all the farming you need (and basically anything else). If you can name a need a Wizard can't satisfy with magic somehow I'd be very surprised.
A Wizard (or other demiplane creator) could set up a situation in which they influence the outside world without ever directly interacting with it -- always using intermediaries.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: Find the Path is by far the fastest of those choices to find the demiplane. Contact Other Plane/Commune is basically yes/no only, the only way you're finding a place with it is with a binary search. Legend Lore and Discern Location are Divination magic, foiled by Mind Blank. Discern Location even calls it out by name. And if you aim for the Wizard's private demiplane with Legend Lore, I'm pretty sure it doesn't count as "important". That would seem in direct contradiction to "private demiplane they never told anyone about".
As for the Wizard interacting with the rest of the world... why? Demiplanes let you basically recreate the whole world. They grow food and make water. Simulacrum can do all the farming you need (and basically anything else). If you can name a need a Wizard can't satisfy with magic somehow I'd be very surprised.
Yes and no. Divinations are foiled by Mind Blank when including or asking directly about the individual or object. After that how round about you need to be depends an awful lot of the DM's discretion. For example, is asking about whether his plane is dead magic going to be protected or not. If it is how much more removed does it need to be before the DM considers it asking about something else and not the Wizard. Potentially for that reason Find the Path might not work ... how do you ask for that specific plane without referring to the Wizard? How the question is phrased may make a total difference in how the DM responds.
And like I said the question for me is relatively moot if they just seal themselves up and don't interact. At that point who cares what the Wizard is doing.
As for interacting directly or indirectly that's still opens the door to tracking them with good old fashioned detective work whether its backed by magic or not. Got to run for now.
You folks have it all wrong: rogues don't need wild and crazy spells.
Max out Forgery, and build your own tuning fork to his dimension.
Stealth in, and Hide your way to the final battle.
Look into the mirror and see what you saw. Take the saw, cut the wizard in half. Put two halves together to make a hole. Climb out the hole.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: Find the Path is by far the fastest of those choices to find the demiplane. Find the Path requires the sought location to be on the same plane, so it's useless here.
Adjoint wrote: Bob Bob Bob wrote: Find the Path is by far the fastest of those choices to find the demiplane. Find the Path requires the sought location to be on the same plane, so it's useless here. Awww pesky details ... I think when first thinking about it I was thinking of potentially using it for finding the gate or portal for accessing the extra extradimensional space/demiplane. That portal presumably straddles both the transitive plane and the wizard's demiplane. Obviously a whole lot less useful if the wizard does not include a portal or gate when creating the demiplane. In turn that circles back to if you can use divination magic to find the portal (separately from the wizard without Mind Blank issues) or even if one exists.
Adjoint wrote: Bob Bob Bob wrote: Find the Path is by far the fastest of those choices to find the demiplane. Find the Path requires the sought location to be on the same plane, so it's useless here. I've been over this a few times but I'll do the quick version again. A listed spell to reach a demiplane is Etherealness. Etherealness is just Ethereal Jaunt, Ethereal Jaunt only brings you to the Ethereal plane. Not adjoining planes, not subplanes, just the Ethereal plane. If you can reach a demiplane with Etherealness then it must be part of the Ethereal plane. So you can use Find the Path if it's made on the Ethereal plane. And there's no information to indicate the Astral plane is any different.
What this actually looks like, who knows? I mean, demiplanes can terminate in an endless expanse of nothing. What does that look like from the outside? Can you enter it by crossing the border? Are you trapped forever if you can't plane shift back out? All of these questions are basically left to the GM. As I've also said before, it's not how I'd run things, but the way I'd run things would leave no way I've seen for the Rogue to succeed. This one's a bit of a long shot but at least it's not impossible. And it's supported by what little text we have (and also sort of opposed but the text is contradictory).
Now, it still takes forever (literally) as the plane is infinite but again, some chance of doing it on your own is better than "hope the Wizard's an idiot and you can lure them into shanking range".
The Wizard doesn't need to cut off all contact or interaction with the outside world to be impossibly safe. He can just cast Astral Projection from his demiplane and live life the same as anyone else.
The only difference is that when you "kill" his projection, he wakes up in his safety bubble alternate dimension and starts to plot your murder. Which he can do as an astral projection. He can also project up to 10 willing Murder-Buddies. That's 10, minimum, assuming he has no caster level boosts. But hey, you just burned 1,000g off a 20th level character. I'm sure a Wizard with prep time won't be very scary the second time.
You could try some wacky Shulsaga stuff, but they can only throw a DC 15 Will save to end the projection. Maybe they could help with backtracking to the demiplane, but that really puts you in a precarious position. Very few things could possibly have happened if the Wizrd's Astral Projection suddenly ends. The demiplane is unreachable and he was in the Prime Material, so if he didn't see anything there, he knows there's f~!!ery about on the Astral itself. If this is a "properly built" Wizard, then he probably specializes in Divination, so he starts asking questions, and the universe starts answering. He finds the Shulsaga, the Shulsaga knows you, he finds you, game over. You don't have the luxury of small, probing moves like this unless you're 200% sure it leads to killing him posthaste.
Question(s) - If your Wizard is under the effects of Mind Blank what happens when you astrally project? Are both your 'spirit' and body protected by Mind Blank or is your new astral body or material body elsewhere missing all precast spells until they are replaced? What happens if your Mind Blank is dispelled, disjoined or simply expires and you haven't returned to your body and your astral spirit casts Mind Blank (range Close) again is your body located across a planar boundary somehow protected? If so why, what's your line of reasoning as a GM?
And if a properly built wizard is so damn hard to kill why do so many adventurers 'routinely' destroy them ... or are Vecna, Acercerak, Baba Yaga etc., etc., all incompetently and improperly built wizards. Seems like the only one who is truly indestructable is some dude named Schrodinger.
Uh, adventurers don't destroy Vecna. As of last writing he's a god. His first defeat was being betrayed by his lieutenant (came back demigod), his second to adventurers (banished to Ravenloft), ascended to godhood, third defeat (adventurers again) dropped him down to lesser god. As of 5e he's a greater god again, I think.
Acererak is also a terrible example in that it basically proves the opposite of your point. The Tomb of Horrors killed way more characters than successfully passed it. The players who beat it frequently did so with foreknowledge of the module (in-character or out). And Acererak both wasn't a wizard (no spell list) and wasn't active (didn't react if the adventurers retreated). If we're just talking Rogue vs dungeon the Wizard built, yeah, the Rogue can probably do that. Survived death to become an immortal quasi-diety (Vestige), so again, not destroyed.
As for Baba Yaga, what? I know she's got a stat block and is technically killable but the adventure she appears in has the party ending at level 16. She's level 20/ML 10. First you have to complete a bunch of story quests for her literal immunity to death. Then you need an artifact to coup de grace her with to deal with her mythic immortality. Then you better pray she doesn't have a Clone somewhere, as she "knows all witch spells, as well as all sorcerer/wizard spells. Baba Yaga also has knowledge of many other spells that she has researched. Many of these are arcane versions of divine spells." Oh, and a pet house that is also immortal and can teleport/plane shift. I think there's also a sanctum effect? At the very least it has some high number of demiplanes (the floor layouts) only accessible by plane shift. Anyway, my point is that I haven't seen anything where you're actually meant to kill her and stand a chance. Maybe a custom adventure but then that's anything but "routine". And without mythic (itself somewhat out there) I don't see it happening at all.
Of course, the short version is don't cite bosses the party is meant to fight as proof that it's easy to find Wizards. You find them because the adventure says you find them. If they wanted to hide I'm pretty sure they could. Baba Yaga literally has a dimension hopping house that can travel somewhere else with a full-round action. If she really wants to stay safe she can use Antimagic Field (the hut is immune). If Baba Yaga decides she wants to run I don't think anything can catch her.
Yes Bob Bob Bob you are correct my examples are off and rather badly at that. I think the repeated theme of the a 20th level wizard is indestructable, can't be found etc. and if he isn't he's somehow improperly built is nonsensical and it got to me a bit while reading thru the thread again. My apologies to all.
Guess my point is if the wizard truly wants to bottle himself up on some demiplane and never realistically accomplish anything outside of their self inflicted prison ... he could be very hard to find and defeat (but not impossible). And so would any other character at those levels. A wizard (and several other caster types) merely directly possesses the abilities to create their own stronghold demiplane. All other characters would have to acquire those resources but are quite capable of doing so at that level. And I don't think this makes said wizard anything along the lines of remotely "well built" simply because they've turned into a paranoid recluse with no interaction with the multiverse beyond their demiplane. And if they interact you can find them. Just because there's no specific spell "N" or "Q" that allows you a straightfoward route to their demiplane doesn't equal can't find. As a body of creative thinkers we can do better than that. /end rant.
I don't think anybody claimed that the Wizard is indestructable. Several people have agreed if the Rogue can get in stabbing range and have a turn they can probably instagib the Wizard (with the right build, of course). The problem is everything else. Finding the Wizard (assuming they don't want to be found), reaching the Wizard (assuming they don't want to be reached), making sure they stay dead (...I think everyone wants to keep living?), things like that. We're not saying the Wizard is invincible. We're saying they're the leader of a country. Yes, you can kill them if you can get next to them with a gun. First you need to find them (this is usually easy), then all the security, then getting away. And then it turns out that was a body double and now you need to do it all over again, only now with quintuple security and a whole country hunting for you. And they're in their secret bunker.
And as for the rest, it's irrelevant. This isn't a generic situation. The OP is planning on playing this. Against a GM who said that the Rogue couldn't beat their Wizard. It's arena combat, basically, except by default the Wizard wins. The Rogue has to actually get the kill and make it stick. The Wizard just has to do anything else. I agree with you that pretty much any other high level caster could do this too (though not as well, the good hermit spells are on the Wizard list). I don't agree that just because a way to do it isn't printed doesn't mean one exists. That's called GM fiat. If the Rogue only wins by the GM (their opponent, last I saw) giving them a freebie than I don't think it counts.
Honestly, the whole thing suffers from how easily available demiplanes are and how little rules there are actually covering how they interact with the world at large. Mostly they're treated like home computers. They're all connected to the network but the only way to access them is if the owner gives out the IP or you're sitting in front of the keyboard. And we're looking for the Wizard's shameful stuff, so it's not even connected to the network most times and it's password protected. And that's assuming we can find the IP in the first place.
Bob Bob Bob wrote: {. . .}
As for Baba Yaga, what? I know she's got a stat block and is technically killable but the adventure she appears in has the party ending at level 16. She's level 20/ML 10. First you have to complete a bunch of story quests for her literal immunity to death. Then you need an artifact to coup de grace her with to deal with her mythic immortality. Then you better pray she doesn't have a Clone somewhere, as she "knows all witch spells, as well as all sorcerer/wizard spells. Baba Yaga also has knowledge of many other spells that she has researched. Many of these are arcane versions of divine spells." Oh, and a pet house that is also immortal and can teleport/plane shift. I think there's also a sanctum effect? At the very least it has some high number of demiplanes (the floor layouts) only accessible by plane shift. Anyway, my point is that I haven't seen anything where you're actually meant to kill her and stand a chance. Maybe a custom adventure but then that's anything but "routine". And without mythic (itself somewhat out there) I don't see it happening at all.
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