As a GM, I'm having trouble making an incentive to use a firearm over a bow and arrow past the early-mid game, especially two-handed firearms. The world has commonplace guns, so I want to make it so that using firearms requires as much investment as bows to use properly, and as much specialization to master.
I want changes that have to be made on the players end to be minimal, as they already have their builds in mind and I don't want to impeed their vision. I just want the mindset for a character with martial weapon proficiency to be "both the gun and bow have their own strengths and weaknesses but similar investments, so I'll pick the one I like more for this situation."
I'm not sure which elements of firearms have to be altered here to make them viable past level 4-6 or so, and would very much like to hear how you guys have made them comparable.
Firearms currently have four key disadvantages over bows:
* They require more feats to use effectively
* They deal less damage and have lower rate of fire
* They can misfire
* They have less range
In return, they have the one key advantage of having the ability to target touch AC within their first range increment. If you want to bring bows and firearms into equivalency you will need to remove or reduce some of the disadvantages until they roughly balance with the advantage of hitting touch AC.
I would start with a dex-to-damage feat for firearms. While this only exacerbates the higher feat requirement, it deals with the damage issue and means that bows and firearms should be relatively equal on that front; firearms deal more damage per shot, bows have higher rate of fire. Next I would reduce the feat load by making firearms simple weapons so you don't need special feats for proficiency, and would also change clearing a misfire to a move action. This means the quick clear ability is no longer mandatory (but still useful to have; going from move->swift is still a huge improvement) since anyone can clear a firearm in a short amount of time. Taken together I think these changes might get pretty close to the equality you're looking for.
The higher level the game, the more of an advantage firearms have. AC continues to scale with level. Bosses should have truly monstrous AC because they should receive buffs. Touch AC is much harder to raise than normal AC.
Against a boss the full BAB classes should really struggle to hit with an iterative attack against full AC. While individual shots from a firearm might not keep up with an archery or 2 handed build, being able to hit with all of their shots should put them ahead in tough situations. It should even allow 3/4 BAB classes to keep par with full BAB classes.
So really, other than following the rules to reduce the cost of firearms and ammo, and make them martial weapons I don't think anything needs to be done. Though you might consider introducing advanced firearms. Oh, and you should have the bad guys use firearms as well. Getting them as loot should encourage people to play around with them. Especially the occasional enchanted firearm.
Meirril wrote: The higher level the game, the more of an advantage firearms have. AC continues to scale with level. Bosses should have truly monstrous AC because they should receive buffs. Touch AC is much harder to raise than normal AC. YMMV on this one. If you're using monsters straight out the bestiary you may have problems since quite often most or even all of their AC is coming from natural armor, but if you're primarily using NPC antagonists it's much less of an issue.
For instance in a game with a firearm focus I might have a 9th level goon that wears a +1 chain shirt, a +1 ring of deflection, a +1 amulet of bullet protection, and has a dexterity score of 18. That allows 21 AC and 16 TAC. This stays very close to CR 8 guidelines for AC as well as 9th level NPC wealth guidelines, all while keeping AC and TAC within 5 points of each other.
Meirril wrote: Though you might consider introducing advanced firearms. I strongly advise against it. Advanced firearms are broken AF and will completely obsolete all other ranged weapon types.
Dasrak wrote: I would start with a dex-to-damage feat for firearms. While this only exacerbates the higher feat requirement, it deals with the damage issue and means that bows and firearms should be relatively equal on that front; firearms deal more damage per shot, bows have higher rate of fire. I like this idea, as it helps shore up the damage difference between the slow-firing firearms and the rapid/multishot bows. I could imagine restricting it to the first shot each round in order to prevent machine pistol or TWF shenanigans, but its not entirely necessary. Slap Point-Blank Shot and a BAB +5 prerequisite on there, as well as a no-stacking clause with other firearm dex-to-damage abilities and we should be good to go!
Dasrak wrote: Next I would reduce the feat load by making firearms simple weapons so you don't need special feats for proficiency, and would also change clearing a misfire to a move action. This is a commonplace firearms setting, so firearms are already a martial weapon. Martial types can already use them immediately, while plenty of roguish types have ways to get proficiency outside of the feat specifically (firearm training for Rogue, ect.) Move action clear seems very powerful if the shooter wasn't planning on full-attacking to begin with. Perhaps standard action, upgraded to a move if the shooter has Rapid Reload would be appropriate, upgrading Gunslingers quick reload to default to move, then upgrade with grit to swift.
Dasrak wrote: Meirril wrote: The higher level the game, the more of an advantage firearms have. AC continues to scale with level. Bosses should have truly monstrous AC because they should receive buffs. Touch AC is much harder to raise than normal AC. YMMV on this one. If you're using monsters straight out the bestiary you may have problems since quite often most or even all of their AC is coming from natural armor, but if you're primarily using NPC antagonists it's much less of an issue.
For instance in a game with a firearm focus I might have a 9th level goon that wears a +1 chain shirt, a +1 ring of deflection, a +1 amulet of bullet protection, and has a dexterity score of 18. That allows 21 AC and 16 TAC. This stays very close to CR 8 guidelines for AC as well as 9th level NPC wealth guidelines, all while keeping AC and TAC within 5 points of each other.
Meirril wrote: Though you might consider introducing advanced firearms. I strongly advise against it. Advanced firearms are broken AF and will completely obsolete all other ranged weapon types. You mean the NPC that is built as a sort of problem against firearms still has a 5 lower touch AC? As in the same 5 that should make an iterative attack hit? That sounds like an illustration of my point instead of a detractor.
And what is wrong with the pistol, rifle and shotgun? They are slightly better than the standard firearms, but not hugely better. Heck, even when they are around there are good reasons to use the standard firearms because some do more damage or have certain properties that a character wants. When you involve enchanting the weapons it becomes more viable to use some of the standard weapons for a better damage dice.
Now introducing the 'modern' firearms, that is a big no no. Those should only be used in the setting that introduced them and only once the campaign naturally offers them. I wouldn't let the players craft those until the craftsmen has had time to study a working example of each item.
Hathdren wrote: Perhaps standard action, upgraded to a move if the shooter has Rapid Reload would be appropriate, upgrading Gunslingers quick reload to default to move, then upgrade with grit to swift. That's perfectly reasonable; I was possibly leaning a little generous in my previous example. I think the key point is you just want to have it balanced in a range where a feat tax to handle misfires isn't mandatory, and what you propose does that just fine.
Hathdren wrote: I could imagine restricting it to the first shot each round in order to prevent machine pistol or TWF shenanigans, but its not entirely necessary Wouldn't worry about TWF; it takes a lot of investment to pull off, and isn't as big of a damage increase as it looks on paper.
Meirril wrote: You mean the NPC that is built as a sort of problem against firearms still has a 5 lower touch AC? As in the same 5 that should make an iterative attack hit? That sounds like an illustration of my point instead of a detractor. Firearms hit more often due to hitting touch AC, but often lose their full attacks entirely due to natural 1's. This is especially true at higher levels; if you're making 5 attacks rolls per round, there's about a 23% chance that one of them will be a natural 1. This will cause you to lose all remaining attacks for this round and cost you actions on your next turn to fix the situation. And 5 attacks isn't that much; if you're using rapid shot (you should be) and an allied spellcaster is hitting you with haste (they should be) then you'll have that many attacks per round by 11th level.
It's very easy to calculate how many extra hits you'll get back hitting TAC 16 instead of AC 21, but it actually takes a tedious amount of math to break down how much you're losing to misfires. I'm not going to do it right now, but based on numbers I've ran in the past I'd put my money that the archer comes out ahead of the firearm user at those number ranges given reasonably well-built PC's.
Dasrak wrote:
Meirril wrote: You mean the NPC that is built as a sort of problem against firearms still has a 5 lower touch AC? As in the same 5 that should make an iterative attack hit? That sounds like an illustration of my point instead of a detractor. Firearms hit more often due to hitting touch AC, but often lose their full attacks entirely due to natural 1's. This is especially true at higher levels; if you're making 5 attacks rolls per round, there's about a 23% chance that one of them will be a natural 1. This will cause you to lose all remaining attacks for this round and cost you actions on your next turn to fix the situation. And 5 attacks isn't that much; if you're using rapid shot (you should be) and an allied spellcaster is hitting you with haste (they should be) then you'll have that many attacks per round by 11th level.
It's very easy to calculate how many extra hits you'll get back hitting TAC 16 instead of AC 21, but it actually takes a tedious amount of math to break down how much you're losing to misfires. I'm not going to do it right now, but based on numbers I've ran in the past I'd put my money that the archer comes out ahead of the firearm user at those number ranges given reasonably well-built PC's.
If you are high enough level that you're getting more than 3 attacks per round then I'm sure you can afford to enchant your guns with reliable. You'll also probably enchant them with seeking because its really nice. And you'll probably either make them shadow shooting or shadowcrafted weapons so you don't have to worry about reloading after you get a few more levels.
As long as you stick to weapons with a misfire of 1 reliable means you never misfire. Actually I generally recommend waiting until you can afford both reliable and shadowshooting on your first set of firearms for a non-gunslinger so you can avoid putting feats into reloading, gunsmithing and clearing jams. But the GM in this case wants them to be common, so you might as well start using them early and just loot some spares so if one jams you can just drop it till after the combat is over.
In higher level play, if you have a gun misfire just drop it and quickdraw another and continue your full attack routine. Just costs money and saves you some feats. Have a real gun fighter reload your guns out of combat to avoid the -4 misfire.
Buy the cleric a couple level 3 Pearls of Power if you need the enhancement bonus and just get half a dozen MW Dragoon Pistols. If you end up needing more than 18 shots... take the action to reload and rethink your strategy.
Yeah I'd take a diff of 5 ac and missing 5 % of the time on a 1 over a bow any day if you've some dice you trust.
Only thing that needs to be fixed about the guns is the idea you'll use them for every attack every round. A piccaroon could do some nifty tricks with them as twf and have a blast.
One thing I always suggest for firearms is that instead of iterative attacks, the damage scale with level, if you use a full round action to aim and shot.
So instead of making a second attack, you get an additional damage die for firearms once your BAB hits 6 and every 5 points thereafter.
This plays toward the "slow attack, massive damage" trope of the early firearms.
Remove non-proficiency penalties for using guns. Then you may very well have people using a gun to start off a fight before moving into melee, just like RL history with single-shot guns.
Or potentially lump firearms in with crossbows as simple proficiencies, they are similar in use, other than gun smoke perception issues, which can get eye burning bad rather quicker than you think.
Guns attack ranged touch AC, if that isn't incentive enough, then nothing will. I wouldn't start changing the mechanics too much beyond that.
I added Drakk fire guns to my campaign from the older Fantasy Firearms from Skortched Urf' Studios as incentive to make rare guns more compelling.
Heck, I often don't allow firearms at all, but that is not the advice he needs to get the effect he wants.
On the theme, are there rules for reloading mishaps? RW, such accidents are fairly common with muzzle loaders and not that uncommon with non-sealed cartridge breach loaders.
Meirril wrote: If you are high enough level that you're getting more than 3 attacks per round then I'm sure you can afford to enchant your guns with reliable. If you're looking to eliminate misfire chance entirely, you'll need to either stick with pistols or go with a greater reliable weapon. Pistols only get to hit touch AC within 20 feet, which at the level range we're talking about can actually put you inside melee reach of some monsters. Greater reliable will bring a musket down to 0 misfire chance, and along with shadowshooting that's +4 enhancement bonus.
Meirril wrote: You'll also probably enchant them with seeking because its really nice. Either that or improved precise shot, but it's not particularly relevant for the firearm to bow comparison.
Meirril wrote: And you'll probably either make them shadow shooting or shadowcrafted weapons so you don't have to worry about reloading after you get a few more levels. While these are definitely options for a firearm user (especially for those who , they have their own separate tradeoffs. While minimum damage isn't the end of the world (most of your damage should be coming from Dex) it does effectively rule out any form of bonus damage that comes from dice.
Firebug wrote: In higher level play, if you have a gun misfire just drop it and quickdraw another and continue your full attack routine. Just costs money and saves you some feats. Have a real gun fighter reload your guns out of combat to avoid the -4 misfire.
Buy the cleric a couple level 3 Pearls of Power if you need the enhancement bonus and just get half a dozen MW Dragoon Pistols. If you end up needing more than 18 shots... take the action to reload and rethink your strategy.
That's a clever approach; I actually hadn't noticed the dragoon pistol from VC. That definitely lends itself towards the "reload and toss" playstyle. Still has its downsides, though; tossing items risks losing them permanently (they become unattended items so AoE damage can destroy them, if you're flying then recovering them could be difficult or impossible, and if you're forced to retreat you'll lose them), carrying six dragoon pistols is rather heavy (30 lbs, and you can't use extraplanar storage if you want to quickdraw them), and relying on a friendly spellcaster to help you out isn't always in the cards (quickened jury rig is a great solution at higher levels if you can convince a friend to blow a few 5th level slots on your account).
Cavall wrote: Yeah I'd take a diff of 5 ac and missing 5 % of the time on a 1 over a bow any day if you've some dice you trust. It's easy to lose track of how quickly 5% chance adds up. If you fire 10 shots over the course of a battle, that gives you a 40% chance of suffering a misfire. Law of averages catches up with gunslingers fairly quickly; if you have a chance to misfire, you will experience them.
Wasn't there some sort of item that would tie a weapon to you? So you could just end up hanging like 3 firearms on cords on your belt?
Or did that thing change at some point?
Well if tis home room anyway, you could consider allowing folks to tie it to your belt so you won't lose it. but would make stealth an issue.
Frankly, I would not make firearms simple weapons. Because they're not really simple. Especially the early ones where you had to pack in powder to reload. It would make more sense to have them be martial weapons.
Heather 540 wrote: Frankly, I would not make firearms simple weapons. Because they're not really simple. Especially the early ones where you had to pack in powder to reload. It would make more sense to have them be martial weapons. IRL even early firearms were always compared with crossbows for difficulty of use. 2 week of training was enough to turn farmers into musket men. Archery on the other hand, the old saying goes "If you want to raise a Longbow men, you start training his grandfather."
Though to be fair, ye old musket and other early matchlock weapons just weren't accurate. You didn't aim, you pointed it in the right direction and hoped it didn't blow up in your face. If you wanted to hunt, you used a blunderbust because the buckshot would hit everything. Muskets were line weapons. A line of men fired a 'sheet' that would by odds hit things in front of them. It wasn't until riffling was implemented that firearms became as accurate as crossbows. Even without the accuracy, early firearms had enough advantages to compete with crossbows.
Zwordsman wrote: Wasn't there some sort of item that would tie a weapon to you? So you could just end up hanging like 3 firearms on cords on your belt? Weapon Cords are what you're referring to, and you can't equip a new weapon until you remove the weapon cords from the previous one, so they're useless for quickdraw fighting styles.
They used to be used for two-weapon fighting with firearms, dropping the firearm to gain a free hand to reload then swift action re-grip it, but they got errata'd to a move action to put an end to that and are now pretty niche items.
Re using and tossing weapons, having a familiar or unseen servant scurrying around the battlefield picking them up and stuffing them into a minor bag of holding is the sort of thing that GMs seldom interfere with. It can be doable. On the other hand you're right, when flying or in difficult environments it's asking for trouble.
How about cords like a long necklace attached to pistol butts. It has both RW and cinema precedence. However there may not be a specific rule for it for those requiring such. Are carry-straps for long arms a thing, I would work both those like that shield, rules-wise.
QuickDraw Shield wrote: This light steel shield is specially crafted with a series of straps to allow a character proficient in shields to ready or stow it on her back quickly and easily. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw a light or onehanded weapon with one hand and a quickdraw shield with the other in the time it would normally take you to draw one weapon. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action. I rather expect it to not work as well for multiple pistols and definitely not for multiple long arms, but it is a place to start. If you are trying to effectively replicate the much more modern and world changing high ROF firearms, I don't think my idea will help you though.
Tryn wrote: One thing I always suggest for firearms is that instead of iterative attacks, the damage scale with level, if you use a full round action to aim and shot.
So instead of making a second attack, you get an additional damage die for firearms once your BAB hits 6 and every 5 points thereafter.
This plays toward the "slow attack, massive damage" trope of the early firearms.
So basically free but worse vital strike?
I want to throw everything I decided to add to my campaign up here, so anyone looking for a solution to the same issue has some potential stuff to read. I want to thank everyone who provided input, and hope this helps some of you all out as well!
To start with, I really wanted an option that made 2-handed firearms comparable to 1-handed ones without making them a free-action reload. That's how I came across Focused Shot, which I decided to alter with an errata to include and care about firearms (and the gunslinger Deadeye deed). While this does allow for Vital Strike + Int to damage stuff with bows and crossbows as well, the single-shot-by-default nature of firearms, combined with their touch AC targeting, makes them much better at this strategy than bows or crossbows.
Gun Specialization is a straight Dex-to-damage feat, as suggested by the community. A BAB requirement is in place to make sure the feat comes online only when it is needed and doesn't break early encounters. Point-Blank Shot is there because what ranged feat path doesn't have it? I felt kind of bad removing a key class feature from gunslingers, so I added the special bit at the end to give them a new toy as well.
The Easy-Access Receiver is a way to remove the keep the gun-jamming as a game mechanic, while making it a bit less punishing overall to use. Considering its cost, it's mainly there as a reminder of "y'all gain Quick Clear around level 5" without actually making it a separate rule people have to remember. The Rapid Reload rider was added since I see that as a more in-universe mechanical mastery of your weapon overall, requiring a knowledge of how your chosen weapon works as much as actual dexterity.
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Feats
Focused Shot (Combat)
Your anatomical insight adds deadliness to your shots.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.
Benefit: As a standard action, you may make an attack with a bow, crossbow, or firearm and add your Intelligence modifier on the damage roll. You must be within 30 feet of your target to deal this extra damage with a bow or crossbow. You must be either within 30 feet or able to make a touch attack against your target that is a result of firearms abilities to make touch attacks to deal this extra damage with a firearm, whichever is further. Creatures immune to critical hits and sneak attacks are immune to this extra damage.
Special: Starting at 2nd level, a ranger with the archery or crossbow combat style may select Focused Shot as a combat style feat. If you have the Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike feats, you may add their effects to the attack allowed by this feat.
Note: This is an errata to the feat of the same name which first appeared in the Advanced Player's Guide.
Gun Specialization (Combat)
You know your firearm inside and out, able to quickly react to the temperamental weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Proficiency (any firearm), Base Attack Bonus +5
Benefit: Select any one firearm with which you are proficient with. You may add your Dexterity modifier to damage rolls made with this weapon. This modifier does not stack with any other source that would add your Dexterity modifier to damage with firearms.
Special: A Gunslinger with this feat who chooses a firearm which they have already selected with their Gun Training ability no longer misfires with the chosen firearm.
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Equipment
Weapon Modification
Easy-Access Receiver
Statistics
Cost +2,000 gp Weight —
Category Modification; Proficiency Modification
Description
A firearm with an easy-access receiver provides more access to the firing mechanism without sacrificing structural integrity. Only firearms can have an easy-access receiver. The wielder of a firearm with an easy-access receiver can remove the broken condition from the as a standard action, as long as that condition was gained by a firearm misfire. A weapon with an easy-access receiver can be used by any character with the requisite weapon proficiency and a base attack bonus of +5. A character who meets these prerequisites and also possesses the Rapid Reload feat can remove the broken condition as a move action.
A character with the Quick Clear gunslinger deed and an easy-access receiver reduces the time required to remove the broken condition by one step (standard to move, move to swift with 1 grit point), but cannot reduce the time required further using the Rapid Reload feat.
I'd suggest you design your own gun rules. I did the same thing for my steampunk campaign. Added Strength scaling to the Guns like composite bows based on the spring tension (they are clockwork guns, basically lethal nerf weapons), massively reducing Guns armor penetration (doesn't auto hit touch AC, instead ignores a portion of their Armor based on how close you are to your target), turning Rapid Reload into a feat that effects whole classes of weapons instead of only a single weapon (crossbows, clockwork guns, steam guns).
Look at the system, understand its limitations, and use it to bring the guns to parity.
The Ranged Touch Attack aspect of firearms would be especially attractive to characters that don't have a full BAB or that add something to their Attacks. Take say a Grenadier Alchemist with the Explosive Missile Discovery. Give him a gun. Now he is shooting exploding bullets , ranged touch attacks that do bullet damage and explode with Bomb Damage. Have them take Deadly Aim, too.
Or give a Gun to the party Ninja. With Vanishing Trick he turns Invisible as a Swift Action, and that locks in Sneak Attack Damage, because victims of Invisible snipers don't get their Dex Mod to AC. Ranged touch attack vs. Flatfooted AC that does Sneak Attack Damage
If you want to motivate the party to embrace the gun, send some gun-toting NPCs after them that have guns.
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