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I love weapon traits. They make for interesting gameplay and help with simulating melee combat.
Therefore I think weapon traits should have a bigger impact on the game. Weapons that allow disarm/trip and so on are great because they give more options for strategy (I'm ignoring if these are powerful/useful strategies for now) . They make the weapon shine in doing whatever it's designed to do. We need more of these.
Examples I think should be added are:
Armour penetration. Weapons such as (war) hammers and picks were specifically designed to overcome heavy armour. A trait such as "penetrating" could allow a two action attack against a target in medium, heavy or construct armour. This attack targets TAC instead of AC. GM can decide that additional monsters are considered "armoured" such as giant beetles or earth elementals.
This trait makes hammers and picks very powerful against specific enemies (reduced in power because of action economy). If this trait seems too powerful, it can be dealt with the same way as Forceful, Agile and Reach are treated- having smaller damage die. This way a sword (d8, versatile) is better when fighting lightly armoured people (and most monsters) while the new warhammer (d6, penetrating, shove) is better against heavily armoured enemies.
For flails you can go another route. Flails (arguably) are used to overcome shields. So a simple way is to give flails some form of advantage against raised shields (or even against cover). But I thought of something more fun with the shield mechanic:
New athletics maneuver called "depress shield" has the attack trait and requires an empty hand: target enemy with raised shield reflex DC. On a success the shield is no longer raised- the target loses its bonus to ac and can't take the shield block action until it raises its shield again. On a critical the target can't raise the shield until the end of its next turn.
Now flails can have a trait that allows them to use this maneuver without an empty hand and gain item bonuses (just like trip and disarm maneuvers).
Like these ideas? Have other ideas for interesting weapon traits? What traits in the playtest are uninteresting or not useful?
I like these ideas a lot. Using flails and warhammers to deal with heavy armor definitely could open up a new way of approaching these types of enemies (that mostly just boiled down to hoping to roll really high), this can add some nuance to combat and rewarding preparation even for martial characters.
The weapon traits were one of my most expected things about PF2e along with ancestries, the later let me down really hard and the former had a lot of good going on for it but I still thought they were too conservative in keeping most things as just minor bonuses instead of making the traits things that significantly alter the playstyle of the character.
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Two-action attack to reduce AC to TAC isn't overly powerful. Its basically "waste an action making one attack instead of 2 with a +3 bonus." Which is actually less powerful than something like Double Slice.
I like the thematic aspect of that, and the flail one is cool too. Though I might make it more like...
Flail - Trait: Bypass Shields
Effect: Reaction. Req: Free hand. On a successful hit or critical hit against a target with a raised shield, it is no longer raised (etc...)
Instead of spending an action, it spends a reaction (so fighters can't AOO and do this, gives non-fighters a possible reaction not from their class, and still lets the flail wielder make 3 attacks, AND is a reaction that primarily hurts fighter types instead of caster types).
Two-action attack to reduce AC to TAC isn't overly powerful. Its basically "waste an action making one attack instead of 2 with a +3 bonus." Which is actually less powerful than something like Double Slice.
I like the thematic aspect of that, and the flail one is cool too. Though I might make it more like...
Flail - Trait: Bypass Shields
Effect: Reaction. Req: Free hand. On a successful hit or critical hit against a target with a raised shield, it is no longer raised (etc...)Instead of spending an action, it spends a reaction (so fighters can't AOO and do this, gives non-fighters a possible reaction not from their class, and still lets the flail wielder make 3 attacks, AND is a reaction that primarily hurts fighter types instead of caster types).
Thanks!
Double slice is a feat (fighter?) so I don't believe the power should be equivalent. The power level of weapon traits starts with Versatile (which is very unlikely to be used in a given fight, not like Penetrating). Forceful, which costs a damage die, gives you its damage back on the second attack, and only has a clear advantage on your third/fourth -10 attack. So I was very cautious with Penetrating. (Oops, read that last sentence aloud...)Reactions on flails: It seems that in the playtest reactions are always not on your turn and things that go off your attacks are free actions (I could be wrong). Also lowering someone's shield just feels like a separate action than attacking. My goal here was to give a strategic option and build it the same way other traits like trip shove and disarm work (athletic maneuvers that you can work into a weapon). What you're describing can be a good feat (most things that add reactions in the playtest are feats, like reactive shield).
That flail change is interesting. It'd be cool if we added that a magical flail works against the Shield spell too, or something like that.
Maybe specify that you can't use shield block against a strike that is followed by this reaction?
As to the warhammer thing, I would argue it's still pretty good. It actually emulates a Monk feat but that's neither here nor there. Making your first attack at basically +3 or more at cost of giving up a -5 or possibly -10 attack is pretty goof I think when you consider it jacks up crit chance too. Especially nice for a pick which has Fatal on it, it synergizes very well.
Not sure if worth a die decrease though, the action cost balances it that far I think.
Thanks! I did mention that you can't use shield block. I also like the magical flail idea
And I'm not sure there's need for an armor requirement as it's already less effective against lighter armors.
True. But it might help beginners know when to use it. But yeah, I agree the usefulness is already dictated by the AC TAC system.
Oh yeah, tons of Reactions you can do on your turn. Some are a little more situational niche (e.g. shield block because you provoked an attack of opportunity), but they exist.
Thanks!
Double slice is a feat (fighter?) so I don't believe the power should be equivalent.
Double Slice is kind of my absolute bare minimum viable "do this for 2 actions instead of Strike twice" type option. E.g. take Power Attack, where it actually costs you average DPR 16 out of the 20 levels you can be. Certainly not PF2's worst feat (hoo boy, Assurance), but not a model to emulate.
Hence the comparison to Double Slice. Double Slice is right around the -1.5 to +1.5 DPR difference depending on weapons used and what you're fighting. Against on-level things you're losing out slightly, only because you're forced into One Handed Agile weapons (not using an agile weapon on your off-hand costs you even more DPR, though you are allowed to do it), so it's "-1 DPR compared to a two handed greatsword." It is, however, a DPR increase over doing two strikes with the same weapons. Again, not much, but some. So when you've got two actions to burn hitting something, its worthwhile.
That said, it'd be worth running the numbers against the kinds of "hard armored" targets we're talking about, so its possible that it falls into the Double Slice category and not the Power Attack one already.