
citricking |

One of my favorite things in the Playtest was that getting a new Power also gave more Spell Points to use it. That gets rid of the problem seen in games like Pillars of Eternity 2, where it's usually best to just have one ability to use your resource pool on, and spend you other talent selections on passives. It also forces builds that lead to more fun when playing, because if you take a feat to increase your Spell Point pool so you can use your main power more, then you also get new options in game.
But having the number of spell points granted based on the cost of the power doesn't seem nice. It makes expensive powers too expensive to use if you've mostly selected cheap powers and it makes selecting an expensive power just for more spell points a possibility. Those things kinda destroy some of the advantages of every power providing more spell points.
Now there a 3 reasonable ways to balance Power power and Spell Point gain:
Weak power: something not very powerful, but still a useful action
Medium Power: reasonably powerful Power like Lay on Hands or Tempest Surge.
Strong Power: a Power worth a highest level spell like Healing Font or Call of the Wild.
A Medium Power costs 1 Point, a Strong Power costs 2 Points, and each new Power you get grants 1 Point. I like this best, you don't have to worry about balancing what's a weak vs medium power, and and extra full power ability every two feats seems like a good amount of power scaling for a character to me.
A Weak Power costs 1 Point, a Medium Power costs 2 Points, a Strong Power costs 3 Points, and each new power you get 1/2 Points. I feel like 1 point is too little, it's only half of a medium power, which is what I feel should be given. But 2 seems maybe a bit much, every 3 feats gives you 2 full power abilities, I still would like 2 a lot more than 1 though.
Gaining extra pools:
Gaining the option of a new Pool/Ability Score for determining the size of the pool I don't think should give more Points. There's already a large enough benefit in gaining access to a new set of/new kinds of abilities, getting extra Points might making getting access to more pools too incentivized.
Martial Abilities also using spell points:
I feel like it would be best to include the possibility for things like Inspiration/Grit/Panache in this system by making it not just spells. Having it be the same system would prevent martial characters from getting too much out of a high mental ability score, and you would have to create a new system for limited use non-magical abilities.
Name:
Since it should be generalized for not just using powers/spells, and I don't think they want the name Power Points because of associations with Psionics, then what about "Ability Points" which can be used to use an Ability that is not necessarily a spell.

Nettah |
I personallly don't really want martial to get spell point or the equivalent except in the current situation where it makes sense (paladin and monk) so if they really need something else I would rather it be a new pool like druids wild shape.
I do agree to some extend with your analyze of the current issue with spell points. I don't think we need 3 categories just two (this will require buffing the more useless ones). The 1-cost uses should be like you said Lay on Hands or Tempest Surge level of power or have a stronger effect but be more situational.
The strong ones costing two should be all the ones currently costing 3 and the Healing Font or Call of the Wild powerful ones.
(Off-topic paladins or more importantly paladin dedicated classes access to a 1-spell point use of Heal should be removed from the game).
I don't mind some feats giving 2 spell points instead of 1, but I do agree that giving 3 spell points will often make you want to take it simply for the extra points rather than the power. I don't think the number should necessarily be based on the cost of the power you get instead simply increase them by what makes sense. I think in general all class feats that are level 4 or above should give 2 points and all below should give 1. This is pretty close to the case for about half so changes would be to some of the powers of Advanced Domain, Call of the Wild, Wild Winds Stance and pretty much every paladin spell power (And again Channel Life should just be removed or otherwise changed to costing 2 spell points and giving 2 spell points).

citricking |
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You don't think there should be a Medic archetype with the ability to get wisdom modifier per day heals, or a Trapper who can get intelligence modifier per day traps. Both with feats that give new kinds of healing/traps that and increases the number of uses per day.
I think that sounds great, and having it use the same system as what are now powers would prevent them from getting too much out of a high int/wis modifier by multiclassing.
Or are you against the possibility of daily resources for martials in general?

Charon Onozuka |
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My thoughts on Powers/Spell Points:
Name:
While I don't really like "Ability Points," I agree that we need a different name for Spell Points. Something magically-neutral so that martial classes don't have any issues with using the same type of pool when/if we get things like inspiration/grit/panache/etc. I believe the resonance test tried to use "Focus" as a sort of combination between spell points and resonance item-boosting, but I don't think that worked out very well since they tried to mix it with another concept that wasn't great on its own (item-boosting).
Multiple Pools:
Please, please no. I was under the impression that spell points were supposed to help with the dozen different class pools from PF1. Right now, I already have an issue with us having channel energy, infused reagents, and wild shape all as separate pools outside of spell points. Heck, universalist wizards even have a pseudo-pool with drain arcane focus for each spell level that you'll have to track in play. Not only does this seem to stray from the intended purpose, but is guaranteed to become a huge mess with multiclassing and new classes adding more individual pools later. I already worry about what'll happen when the alchemist multiclass dedication gets updated, since I have players interested in the idea of a cleric/alchemist that will then will have to deal with 3 seperate class pools all on one character (spell points, channel energy, infused reagents). In my opinion, we really just need one standardized type of "class pool" (spell points, focus, whatever) that any type of class (martial/magic) can potentially gain for limited-use daily abilities linked to that class. If you multiclass, everything is then already set up to take from this one standardized pool.
Power Level:
Right now, powers seem to be treated as niche side-abilities rather than anything substantial. I'm of the impression that most powers need a serious buff to become something that actually entices you to play one class over another (the distinction between cleric/divine sorcerer feels lacking when both domains & bloodlines are near meaningless to distinguish the class). Additionally, a power increase is needed to roll things like channel energy and wild shape into spell points, since otherwise these abilities will render all existing powers meaningless. Ideally, I am of the belief that powers should be substantial enough so that even characters of the same class with different power paths should feel significantly different from each other.

Nettah |
You don't think there should be a Medic archetype with the ability to get wisdom modifier per day heals, or a Trapper who can get intelligence modifier per day traps. Both with feats that give new kinds of healing/traps that and increases the number of uses per day.
I think that sounds great, and having it use the same system as what are now powers would prevent them from getting too much out of a high int/wis modifier by multiclassing.
Or are you against the possibility of daily resources for martials in general?
Maybe at some point several books in new martial classes or certain archetypes for the core classes could get access to some kind of spell points or new pools, but I don't think that should be core.
I think a "Medic archetype" or "Trapper" could be better explored as skill feats rather than class features or feats. Snares are laughable at the moment, so changing them for the better would be cool. However I don't want rangers to just become alchemists with snares instead of potions if there is a ranger build aiming towards using snares.

Captain Morgan |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

My thoughts on Powers/Spell Points:
Name:
While I don't really like "Ability Points," I agree that we need a different name for Spell Points. Something magically-neutral so that martial classes don't have any issues with using the same type of pool when/if we get things like inspiration/grit/panache/etc. I believe the resonance test tried to use "Focus" as a sort of combination between spell points and resonance item-boosting, but I don't think that worked out very well since they tried to mix it with another concept that wasn't great on its own (item-boosting).Multiple Pools:
Please, please no. I was under the impression that spell points were supposed to help with the dozen different class pools from PF1. Right now, I already have an issue with us having channel energy, infused reagents, and wild shape all as separate pools outside of spell points. Heck, universalist wizards even have a pseudo-pool with drain arcane focus for each spell level that you'll have to track in play. Not only does this seem to stray from the intended purpose, but is guaranteed to become a huge mess with multiclassing and new classes adding more individual pools later. I already worry about what'll happen when the alchemist multiclass dedication gets updated, since I have players interested in the idea of a cleric/alchemist that will then will have to deal with 3 seperate class pools all on one character (spell points, channel energy, infused reagents). In my opinion, we really just need one standardized type of "class pool" (spell points, focus, whatever) that any type of class (martial/magic) can potentially gain for limited-use daily abilities linked to that class. If you multiclass, everything is then already set up to take from this one standardized pool.Power Level:
Right now, powers seem to be treated as niche side-abilities rather than anything substantial. I'm of the impression that most powers need a serious buff to become something that actually entices you to play one class over another (the distinction...
While I generally support the ideas here, I will note that Infused Reagents runs on a very different quantity model. I'm not sure if one could collapse it into spell points without really changing how each works.
I'm a little torn on whether I want powers to be stronger or spell points to be more plentiful. Asking for both feels like a little much. I mean, there's definitely room to improve some powers regardless. Domains are rather lackluster, for example. But I think having something that functions as workhorse spell would be nice-- something stronger than cantrips but that you can use substantially more often than top level spells.

citricking |

I think a "Medic archetype" or "Trapper" could be better explored as skill feats rather than class features or feats. Snares are laughable at the moment, so changing them for the better would be cool. However I don't want rangers to just become alchemists with snares instead of potions if there is a ranger build aiming towards using snares.
I would hate for those to be skill feats. I feel like skill feats should be only for non combat narrative power, that's the reason they're a separate pool. If they have some with combat applications then there might pressure to select those instead of more flavorful skill feats. That's why I feel they should be archetypes that grant combat power and you use class feats to take them.