Concentrating on a Spell

[Atalius]

Can I have two summon monster spells going at the same time, thus spending two actions to concentrate on them each round to keep them going?

[Kerx]

Yes, so long as the round you cast the second one you do commit the action to concentrate on the first (Edit:) assuming the first spell's duration is concentration.

CRB 195 wrote:

If you don’t Concentrate on the Spell during your turn, the creature takes no actions, assuming it isn’t dismissed due to the spell having a duration of concentration.

[Nettah]

There is nothing stopping you from doing it. However since casting summon monster is 3 actions to cast, I think you can only ever have 2 summoned monsters active by the use of quickened casting (which in turn requires the spell be 2 levels below your highest spell slot).

So I hardly see this being a thing in actual gameplay, but it is theoretically possible. Unless I missed a rule somewhere.

[Edge93]

Oh yeah, I forgot it's 3 actions.

That said, there are plenty of 2-action concentration spells, so the general question is still relevant.

Also Effortless Concentration is a thing, this is quite a feat.

[Nettah]

Wow that feat is quite strong. But I would imagine that using Effortless Concentration wouldn't give the summoned monster any actions when you were using this. However that would more reliably allow you to summon a monster turn 1 (and let the monster act), Effortless Concentration (on the first summon) and summon monster again (let the new monster act) on turn 2 and on turn 3 spend two actions concentrating to let both monsters act.

[Atalius]

That's a nice feat! unfortunately it's pretty late game and not many classes can select it.

[Edge93]

Nettah wrote:

Wow that feat is quite strong. But I would imagine that using Effortless Concentration wouldn't give the summoned monster any actions when you were using this. However that would more reliably allow you to summon a monster turn 1 (and let the monster act), Effortless Concentration (on the first summon) and summon monster again (let the new monster act) on turn 2 and on turn 3 spend two actions concentrating to let both monsters act.

Effortless concentration actually does give your summon its turns. They get their two actions when you use Concentrate on a Spell. Effortless Concentration allows you to use the Concentrate on a Spell action as a free action once at the start of each turn, which fulfills the condition for the monster getting its actions.

[Nettah]

Edge93 said wrote:

Effortless concentration actually does give your summon its turns. They get their two actions when you use Concentrate on a Spell. Effortless Concentration allows you to use the Concentrate on a Spell action as a free action once at the start of each turn, which fulfills the condition for the monster getting its actions.

Are you certain? My reading of it limits the Concentration on a Spell action to only extending the duration.

"You immediately gain the effects of a Concentrate on a Spell action
to extend the duration of one of your active sorcerer spells." - From the class feat (Emphasis mine)

Why not say: "You immediately gain the effects of a Concentrate on a Spell action of one of your active spells" instead if that was the case.
I would argue that it can at least be understood both ways and would need to made clearer in the final version.

[Draco18s]

Only for duration makes that feat borderline useless. There's only a handful of spells it would be good for, things like Bless.

I can see why they would still want you to spend an action commanding your summons (because minion rules are the worst), but that makes the feat pretty meh at that level.

[Nettah]

Draco18s said wrote:

Only for duration makes that feat borderline useless. There's only a handful of spells it would be good for, things like Bless.

I can see why they would still want you to spend an action commanding your summons (because minion rules are the worst), but that makes the feat pretty meh at that level.

Well the effect is not that far off from Lingering Composition (which both requires a skill roll and a sp) in terms of letting you do more on your turn. So I think if you are regularly using any buff or debuff spell with concentration the feat is still worth taking. Maze seems like a really strong spell, with the biggest downside being the concentration for instance.

And if it lets you use the effects it's really strong for a variety of things.

[Edge93]

I mean the intent seems pretty clear. You get a free action each turn but only to use Concentrate on a Spell.

And the spell descriptions don't preclude this. The feat says "Gain the benefits of the Concentrate on a Spell action to extend the duration of a spell". The effect of the Concentrate on a Spell action is to extend the duration of a spell, that's all. So your are getting the full benefits of the action from this feat.

HOWEVER, certain spells such as Summon Monster have an added effect that happens when you take the Concentrate action. It's not part of the action, it's something triggered by the action, which is in no way prevented by the way Effortless Concentration works.

It would be like, say, casting Disrupting Weapon (You do extra damage when you hit an undead with an attack) on an ally with the Quick condition from Haste (Giving an extra action that can only be used to take the Stride or Strike actions) and then saying that if they use the haste action to Strike an undead the undead doesn't take the extra damage because Quick only allowed them to take the Strike action and the Strike action doesn't do extra damage to undead.

Just as a rough example.

[Nettah]

Edge93 said wrote:

I mean the intent seems pretty clear. You get a free action each turn but only to use Concentrate on a Spell.

And the spell descriptions don't preclude this. The feat says "Gain the benefits of the Concentrate on a Spell action to extend the duration of a spell". The effect of the Concentrate on a Spell action is to extend the duration of a spell, that's all. So your are getting the full benefits of the action from this feat.

HOWEVER, certain spells such as Summon Monster have an added effect that happens when you take the Concentrate action. It's not part of the action, it's something triggered by the action, which is in no way prevented by the way Effortless Concentration works.

It would be like, say, casting Disrupting Weapon (You do extra damage when you hit an undead with an attack) on an ally with the Quick condition from Haste (Giving an extra action that can only be used to take the Stride or Strike actions) and then saying that if they use the haste action to Strike an undead the undead doesn't take the extra damage because Quick only allowed them to take the Strike action and the Strike action doesn't do extra damage to undead.

Just as a rough example.

I don't think your example is similar, because that strike action is just like any other strike action, which would all benefit from Disrupting Weapon. Because it's the weapon getting the enchantment otherwise by that logic no strike would gain any benefits ever.

I might be wrong on the class feat as written or at least as intended, I just don't see the point of specifying "to extend the duration" if you just got the effect of the entire action.

Concentrate on a spell action also states: "Some spells may have slightly different or expanded
effects if you concentrate", so it might do something other than extending the duration according to the action itself.

We might disagree about the intent, but you gotta give me that it's at best worded poorly. It would be shorter and more precise to simply have the feat say: "You immediately gain the effects of a Concentrate on a Spell action of one of your active sorcerer spells" or simply "Each turn you can take the Concentrate on a Spell action on one of your active sorcerer spells as a free action" or something along getting an extra action that can only be used to take the Concentrate on a spell action, instead of what it's saying now.

Not that it's likely to come up in game, but until clarified by Paizo I don't see any reason to change my understanding of the class feat. If you have any rules text or other info that would make it clearer that your version is either the rules as written or intended I would love to see it though.

[Edge93]

Yeah, I totally agree that the wording could be cleaned up a little.