Gloomblade and gaining Advanced Weapon Training options via the AWT feat


Rules Questions


I'm wondering if it's possible for the Gloomblade to gain Advanced Weapon Training options, RAW and RAI. The Gloomblade fighter archetype's Shadow Weapon Training feature alters Weapon Training; I've bolded the key sections below:

At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates. A gloomblade does not select additional weapon groups as he gains levels.

From the latter section, it's clear that Gloomblades don't have the ability to take Advanced Weapon Training options in the regular fashion. However, there's also the Advanced Weapon Training feat:

Benefit(s): Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature.

Because a Gloomblade doesn't select a weapon group, it would seem that he can't gain any benefit from the feat. Some have pointed to the working that the Gloomblade "does not select additional weapon groups" as evidence that shadow weapons are some sort of pseudo-weapons group; however, I think that wording is referring to the additional weapons groups the base fighter can select and in no way indicates that shadow weapons are a weapon group - the preceding text about not selecting a weapons group seems pretty clear.

I'm wondering if this is intentional, some unfortunate wording that nonetheless definitely prevents Gloomblades from using AWT options, a grey area that needs clarification or GM ruling, or an unintended exclusion that might well be errata'd for FAQ'd at some point.


Shadow Weapon Training specially calls itself out as being “weapon training “ in the very first sentence of rules text.

The fighter qualifies for awt.

A lot of awt options require the fighter to be using a weapon from a weapon group he has awt for. These options will not function for a gloomblade.

Other options, like item mastery, do not have this requirement and function normally.


I’d say the shadow weapon is his weapon group. This is backed up by the text saying he can’t take “additional” weapon groups, because he’d have to have a weapon group to be added to.

At any rate, he can certainly take the feat, since he has the weapon training class feature, as it was altered and not replaced.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Shadow Weapon Training specially calls itself out as being “weapon training “ in the very first sentence of rules text.

The fighter qualifies for awt.

Advanced Weapon Training

Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature.

Shadow Weapon Training

At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates. A gloomblade does not select additional weapon groups as he gains levels.

A Gloomblade quite clearly cannot gain AWT options in the normal fashion.


Well any of the Feat AWT options are available to the Gloomblade since they have basic weapon training


Adraius wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Shadow Weapon Training specially calls itself out as being “weapon training “ in the very first sentence of rules text.

The fighter qualifies for awt.

Advanced Weapon Training

Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature.

Shadow Weapon Training

At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates. A gloomblade does not select additional weapon groups as he gains levels.

A Gloomblade quite clearly cannot gain AWT options in the normal fashion.

Shadow weapons are not a weapon group. This is clearly stated in the first paragraph.


Adraius wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Shadow Weapon Training specially calls itself out as being “weapon training “ in the very first sentence of rules text.

The fighter qualifies for awt.

Advanced Weapon Training

Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature.

Shadow Weapon Training

At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group: instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates. A gloomblade does not select additional weapon groups as he gains levels.

A Gloomblade quite clearly cannot gain AWT options in the normal fashion.

Bolded the correct sentence for you.

The latter sentence removes the “addition weapon groups.” The first sentence removes the initial weapon group and changes how weapon training functions.


Shadow Weapons are not a weapon group, however the fighter does gain the weapon training class feature and as such qualifies for the feat 'advanced weapon training'.

The AWT they pick cannot have a group that it applies to however, instead they must choose ones that apply without selecting a group.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Adraius wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Shadow Weapon Training specially calls itself out as being “weapon training “ in the very first sentence of rules text.

The fighter qualifies for awt.

Advanced Weapon Training

Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature.

Shadow Weapon Training

At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates. A gloomblade does not select additional weapon groups as he gains levels.

A Gloomblade quite clearly cannot gain AWT options in the normal fashion.

Shadow weapons are not a weapon group. This is clearly stated in the first paragraph.

Either I am missing something fundamental about AWT, or you are; I'm not getting it, so perhaps we can be a bit more verbose and comprehensive.

As per my previous excerpts, you can only gain AWT by giving up an additional weapon group; the Gloomblade has no additional weapon groups to give up, and thus cannot gain AWT.

As per my original post, I firmly agree with the interpretation that shadow weapons aren't a weapon group. However, I don't see how that fact allows them to gain AWT. Can you explain?


willuwontu wrote:

Shadow Weapons are not a weapon group, however the fighter does gain the weapon training class feature and as such qualifies for the feat 'advanced weapon training'.

The AWT they pick cannot have a group that it applies to however, instead they must choose ones that apply without selecting a group.

I don't follow your logic; the feat says it must be applied to "one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature." The Gloomblade's version of the Weapon Training feature does not select any weapons groups; due to the feat's wording, it can't be applied anywhere. Additionally, ALL AWT options only apply to a single weapon group the Fighter have previously selected - none are universal.

Grand Lodge

The AWT feat requires you to apply it to a weapon group you have weapon training for, since Gloomblades do not have a weapon group, they cannot take the feat.

Advanced Weapon Training (Combat) wrote:
Benefit(s): Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature.

Even the AWT options that do not specify a weapon group still would not work, as the feat calls out that it has to be applied to a group.

In a home game, a generous GM might allow it and just say the shadow weapons are a group, but RAW it is a no go.


Slyme wrote:
The AWT feat requires you to apply it to a weapon group you have weapon training for, since Gloomblades do not have a weapon group, they cannot take the feat.

This is incorrect, they can take the feat, it just does nothing for them by RAW.


“At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates.”

Not selecting a weapon group is not the same as not having one. There is simply no choice about your weapon group. And your weapon group is “shadow weapons he creates”.

It’s pretty obvious this ability was written as altering instead of replacing weapon training to work with options like advanced weapon training. Maybe the language could have been a little tighter, but that’s just nitpicking.


It seems pretty clear that Shadow Weapons are being treated as a group. Shadow Weapons are not a Fighter Group so it is called out that you take Shadow Weapons in place of a current group. However they do not go so far as to create a Shadow Weapon group so it would seem to prevent AWT that affect entire groups from affecting all Shadow Weapons.

It looks to me that the only AWT that can be taken with the feat are:
abundant tactics
armed bravery
dazzling intimidation
defensive weapon training (stuck at +1 shield bonus)
fighters reflexes
fighter's tactics
inspiring confidence
item mastery
weapon mastery

I think arguments could be made for others like Spirit Warrior as long as the Gloomblade kept the same weapon all day. Maybe focused weapon that only affected the weapons associated with the weapon focus skill. As stated above, this could have been written more clearly. Sill a cool archetype.

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