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For reference, both these Archtypes have abilities that change Improvised Weapon damage to equal to Unarmed Strike damage.
At 5th level, a monk of the empty hand may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to deal damage equal to his unarmed strike damage with an improvised weapon for 1 round.
A hinyasi is skilled at fighting with improvised weapons. She deals damage equal to her unarmed strike damage while fighting with an improvised weapon. A hinyasi treats improvised weapons as weapons from the close fighter weapon group.
Improvised Weapon Mastery increases the weapon die size and crit range, but with the die size caps so I think Ki Weapons or Improvisation Training would overwrite it.
Increase the amount of damage dealt by the improvised weapon by one step (for example, 1d4 becomes 1d6) to a maximum of 1d8 (2d6 if the improvised weapon is two-handed). The improvised weapon has a critical threat range of 19–20, with a critical multiplier of ×2.
Shikigami Style on the other hand treats Improvised Weapons as a size category larger. I'm not sure how that interaction would work... :/
While in this style, you deal damage with improvised weapons as if they were one size category larger. For every style feat you have that lists Shikigami Style as a prerequisite, treat the improvised weapon as an additional size category larger, to a maximum of three sizes larger than its actual size.
Does Improvisation Training/Ki Weapons simply overwrite Shikigami Style's increases?
Or would Shikigami Style treat your Unarmed Strike damage as 1 size better when using an Improvised Weapon?e.g. The pan is a 1d6 one-handed weapon, Shikigami Style treats it as large making the damage 1d10, as a 5th level monk/brawler your Unarmed Strike damage is 1d8.
In scenario A, the pan despite using the Large-size die would still only do 1d8 because it just flat makes it your Unarmed damage.
In scenario B, the pan becomes a 1d8 weapon from your Unarmed damage, then becomes 2d6 when considered Large.
Which is correct?
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I ran into similar stuff with a brawler a while back. There is a FAQ that explains some of it.
You can only benefit from one "virtual size increase", which is anything that bumps the die up a step, so you could not take more than one of these to bump your damage up 2 steps. (Like how Shield Spikes don't stack with the Bashing enchantment on a shield)
The common consensus about dealing damage as your unarmed strike seems to be that overwrites other things that alter the damage...for example, a brawler can choose to do their unarmed damage with close weapons (which includes shields), but shield spikes or the bashing enchant do not stack with this, but are instead replaced by it. (I personally do not agree with this...why would a brawler do the same damage with a basic shield that he would with one specifically made to do more damage via spikes or magic?) Alas, it seems like the majority feels it should not stack.
Here is the post where I was asking similar questions about the interactions of shield abilities.
Here is the FAQ about stacking size/die increases.
Different question. Though you did actually answer it for me in your FAQs.
Shikigami Style is size increase, Hanyaki (Brawler) and Monk of the Empty Hand (Monk) are both base weapon die changes. Shield Spikes and Bashing apply to the FAQ because they're both size increases.
I don't really want to get heated over it, and it seems this conversation can be. To how I read it (and people point out) the shield uses the Unarmed Strike damage from Close Weapon Mastery, yet maintains the magical effects which would include the Bashing. Equivalent to say an Unarmed Strike with the Bashing quality.
Essentially we're actually talking about the same ability. Close Weapon Mastery is replaced on Hanyaki with Improvised Weapon Mastery. The difference is the Bashing enchantment versus the feat chain Shikigami Style (equating to a +3 size increase on its own).
I also understand both sides of arguement though. If they do stack, Shikigami Style is the META for both those class Archtypes without question. It is already the new ideal option for any Improvised Weapon user. Which is the other half of the problem. If they don't stack, both the Hanyaki and Monk of the Empty Hand become null. At max level 2d10 will always be lower than the 4d6 available to someone who only took Shikigami Style, not to mention synergy with Improvised Weapon Mastery that these two classes cannot benefit from.
Edit: That 4d6 is also available as early as level 5 (Shikigami Manipulation requires 5 ranks in Use Magic Device). The power difference is insane.
I also realized I said it would be the META for those archtypes but then went to describe it's already the META for all Improvised Weapon users, which makes it a null point. Not stacking would just make both those class options bad as compared to their non-archtyped counterparts.
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If you read the wording of the FAQ I linked, both damage die steps and size steps count as the same thing, and you can only apply one. If one is larger than the other, the larger applies.
which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language
Generally quote the whole ability when making an argument with it, not just the bit that supports your stance. The FAQ also has this:
However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
So two size effects don't stack, but a die step from a source, and a size effect would as they would be one of each. Thus Improvised Weapon Mastery (a die step) and Shikigami (a size step) would stack, but not shield spikes (a size step) and Bashing (a size step) as they are the same type of bonus.
The same would be true of Close Weapon Mastery and it's variants. Close Weapon Mastery (a die change) Shikigami/Bashing (a size step).
This means Close Weapon Mastery (a die step) and Improvised Weapon Mastery (a die step) don't stack as well, as I initially thought. Though the crit range would still increase.
If Monk/Brawler was described in it's entry "every x levels you count as 1 size larger for your unarmed strike damage" then things would be different. If you were using an actually oversized/undersized weapon things would be different.
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However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).
a die step and a size step are considered the same thing (and effective size increase), the only difference would be you can have one actual size increase, such as Enlarge Person (an actual size increase), and one virtual increase, such as shield spikes or Improvised Weapon Mastery (effective size increases).
Monk and Brawler unarmed damage completely overwrites the damage of a weapon, and is not modified by size steps that affect the weapons they are replacing damage on, there are numerous posts about this on the forums already.
So a Brawler with a Heavy Steel shield with the Bashing enchantment (2 size step increase) would have to choose either the shield damage -or- the unarmed damage from CWM. They would not choose the unarmed damage, then apply the size increases from bashing to that.
In summary. You look at the weapon damage with 1 effective size increase, you look at your unarmed damage, you choose which one is better and do that. Then, if someone casts enlarge person on you, that would actually modify whichever choice you made, as your weapon and your fist are actually physically larger before the virtual increase from IWM/Shikigami/etc.
There's no point in arguing this. You've latched onto a specific (bracketed) line of the Size Increase FAQ. The same as you've latched onto your own view on Sneak Attack dice in the other thread you are vividly fighting in despite bring incorrect.
By the base rules, bonuses of the same type do not stack. So Sheild Spikes and Bashing do not, as the same type. Doing damage as an Unarmed Strike, and an effective size increase are different.
A monk's Unarmed Strike can be subject to effective size change despite it changing Unarmed Strike's base damage. Unarmed Strike is a 1d3 weapon remember, it's a Monk/Brawler's ability that changes it to the new value, thus it would apply the same logic to Close Weapon Mastery and it's variants. Unless you would now like to argue that Monks and Brawlers cannot be subject to any ability that increases their Unarmed Strike damage further.
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My old thread discussing this topic
Another thread discussing this topic
There are more, you can go look for those if you like.
I went through all this months ago when I made a shield bashing brawler...almost unanimously got told what I have been saying here.
So a Brawler with a Heavy Steel shield with the Bashing enchantment (2 size step increase) would have to choose either the shield damage -or- the unarmed damage from CWM. They would not choose the unarmed damage, then apply the size increases from bashing to that.
Agreed.
I believe it's the same situation as with Sacred Weapon, and how it overwrites the original damage.Whenever the warpriest hits with his sacred weapon, the weapon damage is based on his level and not the weapon type.
So a while the Shikigami style feats would increase the damage of improvised weapons, the Hinyasi Brawler would replace that increased damage with Unarmed Strike damage.
You got told Sheild Spikes and Bashing do not stack, as two effective size changes. Which is true. All three of your example threads either end inconclusively with multiple answers, or have organized play members (coloured usernames) telling the opposite.
Again, and I cannot stress this enough, if what you are inferring from the FAQ about size applied as you are saying (and have not been told consistently by anyone) then Monks and Brawlers Unarmed Strikes would not qualify for ANY modifiers, because they alter the base weapon die of an Unarmed Strike from 1d3 to a value based on your Monk/Brawler level. This would qualify as a "virtual increase" (a term not used by anyone but you) and thus negate any other changes from items, feats, or magic (with exceptions made for Monk's Robes or other Monk's Unarmed Strike specific abilities, and effects such as Enlarge Person which don't directly apply to the weapon but the person).
Such things according to those threads are also questionable. Effects that specifically target your Unarmed (one of the examples was the Orc Strong Jaw) would apply to the Unarmed Strike damage, but not Close Weapon Mastery damage because the Close Weapon is not Unarmed. This applies both ways, thus abilities and effects targeting your Close Weapon would still apply as normal so long as you did not violate another printed rule. (On that note, Close Weapon Mastery and its similar abilities actually do not state they grant things such as the Magic and Cold Iron DR bypassing, only the base die, so you still have to get magic weapon on there somehow for DR reasons.)
You can scour the forums since Shikigami Style was released, and near-unanimously people seem to believe it stacks with Improvised Weapon Mastery as normal, capping a 2h Improvised Weapon at 6d6 with all 5* feats invested. Regardless of a throw-away line in a 3-year old FAQ specifically talking about Size modifier stacking and not directly changing base damage die.
One real size increase, one virtual size increase. Whether it's worded as a die increase doesn't matter at all.
Wrong. Warpriest overrides all the damage dealt, brawler overrides the base damage of the weapon. Completely different situations.
I believe both Warpriest and the vanilla Brawler overrides the base damage of a weapon, with text explicitly stating that.
The warpriest can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of the sacred weapon damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made.
The brawler can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of her adjusted unarmed strike damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made.
I'm very certain that the Hinyasi Brawler's ability should be treated the same as other damage-swapping effects.
But I'm having trouble finding any proof that effects such as Impact/Bashing wouldn't increase the swapped damage of Sacred Weapon/Close Weapon Mastery. If they do, then the Shikigami Style feats would increase the (swapped) Unarmed Strike Damage.
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Wrong. Warpriest overrides all the damage dealt, brawler overrides the base damage of the weapon. Completely different situations.I believe both Warpriest and the vanilla Brawler overrides the base damage of a weapon, with text explicitly stating that.
The warpriest can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of the sacred weapon damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made.The brawler can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of her adjusted unarmed strike damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made.I'm very certain that the Hinyasi Brawler's ability should be treated the same as other damage-swapping effects.
But I'm having trouble finding any proof that effects such as Impact/Bashing wouldn't increase the swapped damage of Sacred Weapon/Close Weapon Mastery. If they do, then the Shikigami Style feats would increase the (swapped) Unarmed Strike Damage.
The only way to up the sacred weapon or brawler damage is to increase the characters size. Weapon size or virtual size is irrelevant. A tiny or colossal weapon would deal the same damage.
Using monk unarmed damage instead of the weapons normal damage is not a virtual size increase for the weapon.
It just changes out the normal base damage this means that the size increase would affect the damage dice.