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Hello All.
I just had a player create the aforementioned character. At first level he has +7 to hit (Str:18), does 1d10+6 points of damage with a two-handed improvised weapon. He can also opt instead to disarm with +9 to his CMB roll.
I wonder if we have gotten something wrong? Can the character use the fighting "style" of the Hinyasi archtype gaining all of the benefits for doing so, while at the same time use the Shikigami style and style feats making his weapon "bigger"? Does the Hinyasi archtype invalidate that question in that it states that improvised weapons do damage equal to the character's unarmed damage? I am a little confused and would appreciate some clarity if you can shed some light (or have an opinion). Thank you.
The Skikigami style feats increases the damage dice size of improvised weapons, and the Hinyasi archetype allows you to replace your improvised weapon damage with your unarmed strike damage.
These two effects would not stack.
If you are a lv 12 medium creature with all three Shikigami Style feats, your two-handed improvised weapon would deal a total of 4d6 dmg (1d8->2d6->3d6->4d6).
You then replace your 4d6 damage with your unarmed strike damage, which would be 2d6.
***
So your player would have +7 to hit, and deal 2d6+6 points of damage at level 1. If he attempts to flurry with it from level 2 onwards, remember that you'd not multiply his strength by 1.5 as Brawler's Flurry always deals 1x Strength dmg.
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Quote: Shikigami Style (combat, Style)
Your skill with improvised weapons makes them more dangerous than they would otherwise be. Prerequisite: Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything.
Benefit: While in this style, you deal damage with improvised weapons as if they were one size category larger. For every style feat you have that lists Shikigami Style as a prerequisite, treat the improvised weapon as an additional size category larger, to a maximum of three sizes larger than its actual size.
Quote: Shikigami Mimicry (Combat)
Your unique understanding of improvised tools enables you to turn the intrinsic form of all manner of objects to your advantage in combat.
Prerequisites: Catch OffGuard or Throw Anything, Shikigami Style*.
Benefit: While in Shikigami Style, you can take a –2 penalty on attack rolls to treat an improvised weapon as if it had one of the following weapon special qualities until the start of your next turn: blockingUE, brace, disarm, distractingUE, nonlethal, performanceUE, or trip. If the weapon has the fragileUE special quality or broken condition, you can treat it as if it had the jagged special quality (Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer’s Armory 222).
Quote: Shikigami Manipulation (Combat)
You channel a magic item’s power to enhance its improvised attacks, even though it was never meant to be used as a weapon.
Prerequisites: Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, Shikigami Mimicry, Shikigami Style, Use Magic Device 5 ranks.
Benefit: While using Shikigami Style, you can treat any magical item you’re using as an improvised weapon as if it granted an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the item’s caster level divided by 4 (minimum +1), to a maximum bonus of +5. Special: A character with this feat and Equipment Trick (Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer’s Armory 22) who uses magical equipment to perform a trick can add a bonus equal to the item’s caster level divided by 4 (minimum +1) on skill or combat maneuver checks attempted as part of the trick.
Quote: Improvisation Training (Ex): A hinyasi is skilled at fighting with improvised weapons. She deals damage equal to her unarmed strike damage while fighting with an improvised weapon. A hinyasi treats improvised weapons as weapons from the close fighter weapon group.
This replaces the bonus combat feat gained at 2nd level.
There's 2 arguments for this
1. They stack, the archetype replaces the damage dealt by the base weapon. However, shikigami style makes it so this weapon is treated as if it were x sizes larger. This causes the weapon to deal damage as if it were a weapon of that size category.
2. They stack, the brawler archetype replaces the damage, but since brawler unarmed strike does take into account size increases/decreases it would also be increased. Making it so it deals damage as if they were x sizes larger.
At 12 with all three feats you'd deal a damage of 6d6 (2d6 -> 3d6 -> 4d6 -> 6d6)
Thank you both for the responses. I think we are all on a similar track. Willuwontu, your option 2 makes a lot of sense to me. I think I have what I need, but additional responses are welcomed! Thank you both.
willuwontu wrote:
1. They stack, the archetype replaces the damage dealt by the base weapon. However, shikigami style makes it so this weapon is treated as if it were x sizes larger. This causes the weapon to deal damage as if it were a weapon of that size category.
2. They stack, the brawler archetype replaces the damage, but since brawler unarmed strike does take into account size increases/decreases it would also be increased. Making it so it deals damage as if they were x sizes larger.
I would agree with #2 as well.
Improvisation Training -> deals damage equal to her unarmed strike damage while fighting with an improvised weapon
This sets damage equal to Unarmed Strike.
Shikigami Style -> deal damage with improvised weapons as if they were one size category larger
This sets damage as if you are one size larger.
Basically just like Improved Natural Attack.
The unarmed strike, while yes it does take into account size increases, does not take into account effective size increases of a weapon. If you were playing a large brawler, yes, your damage would go up a step.
They do not stack, the effective size of the improvised weapon is increased, but is then overridden by the hinyasi ability that makes it equal the amount of the brawler's unarmed strike.
All three shikigami style feats bring it up three steps (assume 1d6>1d8>2d6>3d6) but you then "deal[s] damage equal to her unarmed strike damage while fighting with an improvised weapon." So it goes right back down to whatever your current brawler damage with unarmed strikes is.
If you want to use the feat line, play a regular brawler, improvisation training doesn't care what size or effective size the weapon is that it is changing the damage of. Much like the warpriest's sacred weapon.
Only real problem here is that hinyasi doesn't have anything saying that it only uses your unarmed strike damage in place of the improvised weapon's damage if it is lower than your unarmed strike damage. Which sadly, makes shikigami style worthless for a hinyasi without a kind DM.
Xelaaredn wrote: The unarmed strike, while yes it does take into account size increases, does not take into account effective size increases of a weapon. If you were playing a large brawler, yes, your damage would go up a step.
They do not stack, the effective size of the improvised weapon is increased, but is then overridden by the hinyasi ability that makes it equal the amount of the brawler's unarmed strike.
All three shikigami style feats bring it up three steps (assume 1d6>1d8>2d6>3d6) but you then "deal[s] damage equal to her unarmed strike damage while fighting with an improvised weapon." So it goes right back down to whatever your current brawler damage with unarmed strikes is.
If you want to use the feat line, play a regular brawler, improvisation training doesn't care what size or effective size the weapon is that it is changing the damage of. Much like the warpriest's sacred weapon.
Only real problem here is that hinyasi doesn't have anything saying that it only uses your unarmed strike damage in place of the improvised weapon's damage if it is lower than your unarmed strike damage. Which sadly, makes shikigami style worthless for a hinyasi without a kind DM.
I see your point and disagree, but I wanna hear your explanation of how the following scenarios work, as that may change my mind.
Scenario:
A Hinyasi Brawler 8/Varisian Free-Style Fighter 3 with 22 Strength (+6 mod), power attack (-3/+6), Shikigami Manipulation, Dragon Ferocity, Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike) and all the necessary feats for those feats. The relevant items they have are a Caster Level 20 scroll of Read Magic (only 250gp, and we'll say the base damage is 1d4 as an improvised weapon) they're using as an improvised weapon and a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists.
If the above character has entered both the Dragon and Shikigami Styles, what is their damage with the scroll (xdy + z)? Explain why.
If the above character has Strong Jaw cast on them, what is their damage then?
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TIL math teachers can use Pathfinder scenarios for test questions.
willuwontu wrote:
I see your point and disagree, but I wanna hear your explanation of how the following scenarios work, as that may change my mind.
Scenario:
A Hinyasi Brawler 8/Varisian Free-Style Fighter 3 with 22 Strength (+6 mod), power attack (-3/+6), Shikigami Manipulation, Dragon Ferocity, Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike) and all the necessary feats for those feats. The relevant items they have are a...
Alright.
A) 1d10+17 The scroll's damage has changed to the die size of the unarmed strike, it is not however, an unarmed strike as it is an improvised weapon and therefore Dragon Style/Ferocity does not take into effect. It is also still being used one handed (assumed) and thus only gets the normal +6 from Power Attack. The +5 enhancement bonus from the CL20 scroll still applies to the attack and damage as it is still an improvised weapon. The Amulet of Mighty Fists (wouldn't factor in due to the +5 from the scroll anyway) falls by the wayside much like Dragon Style/Ferocity.
B) 3d8+17 Only thing Strong Jaw adds to the calculation is that the unarmed strike itself counts as if it is increased two sizes 1d10>2d8>3d8.
Dont get me wrong, I can see where everyone is coming from. But not everything that applies to one applies to the other. It is a very... interestingly worded archetype feature.
Essentially it replaces the base damage the improvised weapon does with the base damage the unarmed strike does. Increasing the effective size of the weapon changes the base damage of the weapon as it is considered the new size. Any sort of "bonus" damage like that of strength and enhancement still applies as if it is an improvised weapon as normal.
I generally agree with Xelaaredn and Wonderstell, the Hinyasi's class ability replaces the damage done by improvised weapons. It doesn't just change the base damage dice.
Also if you are going to use a 2-handed improvised weapon may I suggest buying a Sledge. A Sledge used as an improvised weapon starts at 2d6 damage.
Meirril wrote: Also if you are going to use a 2-handed improvised weapon may I suggest buying a Sledge. A Sledge used as an improvised weapon starts at 2d6 damage. Which is a great idea for the added strength for using a two handed weapon, but will take a bit to get back to that damage if using Hjnyasi.
Again, I'd suggest just using a regular brawler.
Edited:
Also, way back in Wonderstell's first post here there is a slight error. Going from the assumption of a 12th level character and then back to first, the damage wouldn't still be 2d6+6, it would be down to 1d6+6 with that two-handed improvised weapon.
No offense meant. Just bringing it up for posterity's sake.
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