Any Indication of Whether Hazards Are Getting Conceptually Tightened Up?

[Tectorman]

Hazards by default have Fortitude and Reflex saves and not Will saves (haunts being the main exception to that last bit, though when I was looking in the Bestiary, the one haunt listed didn't actually have a Will save). And that makes sense in general: Hazards with moving parts can be thought of to be "dodging" (even if in an unintentional or programmed fashion), and Hazards involving at least something physical would need to save to see if that physical part could endure whatever Fortitude save effect might be thrown at it.

But there were some that just don't make sense. For example, the Hidden Pit has a Reflex save of +1. Why? How is it dodging? What part of this void in the earth got out of the way when the Wizard cast Fireball? More to the point, what does it even mean if the Hidden Pit fails to dodge? Ditto the Bottomless Pit, and compare that to a Planar Rift, something that doesn't have a Reflex or Fortitude save because of course it shouldn't, it's a hole between dimensions.

To paraphrase Tim Allen in GalaxyQuest, "It's empty space! It doesn't have any vulnerable spots!"

So just in case this got glossed over, I just want to throw out this reminder that the traps and hazards still need to make sense.

[deuxhero]

Since a hidden pit is pretty flush with the floor (plus in the case of fireball heat rises). I'd imagine that gives it slightly better protection than the average inanimate object caught in the crossfire.

For the record, even if a character was tied up and unconscious their reflex save remained the same in 3E/PF1

[RazarTuk]

To be fair, taking no damage, despite being in the middle of a fireball, is already pretty silly, regardless of whether you're conscious. (Evasion)

[dragonhunterq]

deuxhero wrote:

For the record, even if a character was tied up and unconscious their reflex save remained the same in 3E/PF1

For the record, no. Your reflex save dropped by the difference between your current dex mod and -5 (due to your dex being treated as 0).

And with regard to the pits as pointed out, everything gets a reflex save, even if immobilised - I assume that the stats take into account the 0 dex...
Also the damage is to the trapdoor - the pit never takes damage - as per the hardness description and the reset condition

pit trap wrote:

hardness 4(trapdoor) ...

Reset The trap still causes falling damage if anyone falls in, but the trapdoor must be reset manually for the trap to become hidden again.

[deuxhero]

Your effective dex is zero, but there is no special penalty beyond that.

[Quandary]

Yeah, as others pointed out, the common idea Reflex Saves solely can represent "active" (re)action on part of target is inaccurate. Yes, that is component of it, and immobiization has certain mechanical effect (penalty). But beyond that, Reflex Saves can also represent chance or situational variation in effect itself and/or environmental mediation of that effect. "The prevailing wind and near-by objects disruption of flame aerodynamics somehow prevented the brunt of fire-ball's blast from destroying the antique toilet plunger, although the indirect flame turbulence scorched it somewhat." Reflex Save variability can be seen as just a part of the effect itself, not hinged on target (re)actions per se (although allowing them to have beneficial effect).

[Tectorman]

Okay, again, my issue with the existence of a Reflex save on a Hidden or Bottomless Pit is that it's a question of what is the thing doing the dodging. Or, going with Quandary's above alternative take on what a Reflex save represents, what is the thing that, due to luck and prevailing wind conditions, avoided taking damage? It is a hole in the ground. An absence of solid matter. What are you hitting, the air? Can air take damage?

And yes, I know these traps are accompanied by trapdoors that would qualify as the things that would need to make the saves. So I suppose my real issue is that I don't think those statistics should be included in the trap itself. I get a door having stats, and even having save modifiers, but I think that should stay with the section on object hardness, hit points, etc. A Hidden Pit concealed by a wooden door is going to be different with regards to those stats from a Hidden Pit concealed by a Mithril door, but will otherwise be the same trap and even the same low-level trap. The fanciness of the door you didn't notice doesn't change the falling damage you took, right?

[dragonhunterq]

Well if you think about it a hole in the ground isn't a trap, it's only the thing hiding it that makes it a trap - get rid of that and it's just a terrain feature.

[Tectorman]

dragonhunterq wrote:

Well if you think about it a hole in the ground isn't a trap, it's only the thing hiding it that makes it a trap - get rid of that and it's just a terrain feature.

Yeah, I misspoke, the term should be "hazard" (which would include non-malevolent but still dangerous terrain features).

[DerNils]

The pits are also a bit limited, as disarming them involves bashing the door in. Which is - not really helpful. What is taking damage is obviously the door, as that is the part with hardness, etc. As I said, very marginally helpful, but that's what you get with condensed descriptions. Solutions like crossing the pit with a ladder are up to the GM and divorced from the trap mechanic.