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So... Perpetual Infusions
is not free.
it actually replaces the extra Quick alchemy uses (1/2 level) that Alchemists got at level 9
instead, at level 7, we get at will powers.
something that alchemists' sorely needed.
now, let's look at them:
chirurgeon: Literally nothing. +2 armor is at level 7 already, so you already have +2 item bonus to ALL saving throws.
poisoner: Your choice of nothing (like above) OR a DC 14 poison. Let me say that again: DC 14 at level 7 I think that monsters only fail that on a... 2? Plus, since it's only on Quick Alchemy. You need 1 action to make, 1 to apply and then 1 attack and if you don't attack, then it fades. Basically, you need to be adjustent, have the enemy not move, spend a full round, to make ONE attack, that if the monster rolls a 1, then it takes 1d4 extra damage...
Bomber: cool, at will bombs are like cantrips right? Nope. 2 levels later, scale worse, so, just worse cantrips...
mutagenist: +1 item bonus can potentially be used someplace...
Now
speaking of mutagenist:
WTF. Like seriously...
a)why split his base feature and his level 5 feature into 2? That's just a single class feat as opposed to everyone else actually getting some actual benefits equal to a feat with their abilities in EACH tier.
b)expert at unarmed at 13... Since we established that they are already 1 less feature than literally every else specialization, and since for some reason mutagenic means only bestial now, why not actually scale him like bomber:
his starting feature should by all means and rights be his 5th level feature.
his 5th level feature should be expert, but only when under the influence of mutagen
his 13 level feature should be master but only under the influence of mutagen
still crappy +item bonuses that won't stack with basic equipment
self explanatory
alchemical alacrity
still somehow we hold 3 items in one hand
bullhead mutagen
can we please have an explanition what "-1 rp" means. Is it while under the influence your max RP gets reduced? Do you lose extra RP just by drinking it? What happens, and if it's the latter.. why?...
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to be honest, the longer we playtest, the longer it seems this all is just a very elaborate prank from Paizo. At least thats my last hope
I don't hate the bomber one..
but I feel like it needs to be "create and use" it one.
I'd be fine with that for the free flatfooted or spreading persistent damage.
still it isn't exactly....effective at that point.
In general I think Quick Alchemy needs the option to create and use in one. and quite possibly 1/2 lv not the lowest stuff.
but. I figure they're starting low and will adjust upwards depending on feedback.
Though I think 1/2 your max level version item would work alright.
As it stands though.. gaining that Multi Attack Penalty for the bomb isn't very useful. even with FlatFoot. Unless you're playing for suport
Fits. You prepare your weak-spells in the morning, and you have your weak-cantrips to spam.
That said, I tried to build a non-bomber alchemist.
I looked at my lv1 feat selection.
Huh.
At least my lv2 selection can be a multiclass, I guess?
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Alright, just for the sake of having the numbers out there somewhere instead of rattling around in my head, I'm going to compare how the bomber's perpetual infusion bombs compare to cantrips.
Levels 1-6: Casters have cantrips. They do 1 die of damage, adding their casting modifier once they hit level 5. Bombers have nothing. Not a strong start for bombers.
Level 7-8: Bombers finally have at-will bombs. They're minor bombs, so they do 1 die of damage (and maybe +splash damage? I'm going to be nice with them and assume that the target of a bomb takes splash damage on a hit), versus the 1 die + casting modifier that cantrips do, so same amount of damage. And at this level, alchemists have expert proficiency with their bombs, versus the merely trained proficiency casters have, so they're more accurate! A win for bombers!
Level 9-10: Bombers haven't gained anything. Casters, however, gain a die of damage with their cantrips and can now pick up a lesser spell duelist's wand and gain a +1 item bonus to their attack rolls with them. Now cantrips are just as accurate as bombs and outdamaging them.
Level 11: Bombers can now throw lesser bombs at-will, dealing 2 dice + Int damage, putting them on par with cantrips again.
Level 12: Casters become experts with their spells, now giving them the edge in accuracy over the bomber.
Level 13-14: Bombers gain a proficiency boost with their bombs, now putting them at master. However, casters can now grab a standard spell duelist's wand, meaning cantrips are still more accurate than bombs. In addition, bombs get a damage bump at level 13, putting them ahead of bombs at 3 dice + casting modifier damage.
Level 15: Bombers can now throw moderate bombs at-will, dealing 3 dice + Int damage, putting the damage on par with cantrips, but still less accurate.
Level 16: Casters gain another bump in their casting proficiency, making them even more accurate than bombers.
Level 17-18: Bombers can now grab a pair of alchemist goggles, giving them a +2 item bonus to attacks made with their bombs, finally catching up to the caster's cantrips in accuracy. Except not, because casters can now grab a greater spell duelist's wand, making them again more accurate than bombers. In addition, their cantrips go up to 4 dice + casting modifier damage, again pulling ahead of bombs in damage.
Level 19-20: Casters gain legendary proficiency in spellcasting, pulling ahead in accuracy even more.
During the course of level 20: Casters can grab a supreme spell duelist's wand, cementing them at 3 points more accurate than the bomber.
FINAL SCORE
Bomber: +29 to hit (22 proficiency + 5 dex + 2 item), 3dX+7 damage
Caster: +32 to hit (23 proficiency + 5 dex + 4 item), 4dX+7 damage
Now for some final thoughts
- On the one hand, this is discounting the secondary effects of the cantrips. Unlike damaging cantrips, which generally require a critical hit for their non-damaging effects, bombs have secondary effects which occur on a hit, giving them some utility that cantrips lack. This probably makes the bomb rankings look something like Bottled Lightning > Liquid Ice > Acid Flask > Alchemist's Fire > Thunderstone
- On the other hand, everything above assumes that the bomber took the Calculated Splash feat AND that splash damage works how it does in the Resonance Playtest. This would make your free bombs garbage for dealing damage, probably putting the Thunderstone above Alchemist's Fire in my rankings assuming you had Powerful Alchemy.
- Dex mutagenists under the effects of a Quicksilver Mutagen are more accurate than bombers (+30 to hit = 20 proficiency + 5 dex + 5 item), but still less accurate than casters.
- Things would probably work out very differently if Double Brew and Alchemical Alacrity let you make multiple free bombs with a single action.
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Red Metal wrote: Alright, just for the sake of having the numbers out there somewhere instead of rattling around in my head, I'm going to compare how the bomber's perpetual infusion bombs compare to cantrips.
Levels 1-6: Casters have cantrips. They do 1 die of damage, adding their casting modifier once they hit level 5. Bombers have nothing. Not a strong start for bombers.
Level 7-8: Bombers finally have at-will bombs. They're minor bombs, so they do 1 die of damage (and maybe +splash damage? I'm going to be nice with them and assume that the target of a bomb takes splash damage on a hit), versus the 1 die + casting modifier that cantrips do, so same amount of damage. And at this level, alchemists have expert proficiency with their bombs, versus the merely trained proficiency casters have, so they're more accurate! A win for bombers!
Level 9-10: Bombers haven't gained anything. Casters, however, gain a die of damage with their cantrips and can now pick up a lesser spell duelist's wand and gain a +1 item bonus to their attack rolls with them. Now cantrips are just as accurate as bombs and outdamaging them.
Level 11: Bombers can now throw lesser bombs at-will, dealing 2 dice + Int damage, putting them on par with cantrips again.
Level 12: Casters become experts with their spells, now giving them the edge in accuracy over the bomber.
Level 13-14: Bombers gain a proficiency boost with their bombs, now putting them at master. However, casters can now grab a standard spell duelist's wand, meaning cantrips are still more accurate than bombs. In addition, bombs get a damage bump at level 13, putting them ahead of bombs at 3 dice + casting modifier damage.
Level 15: Bombers can now throw moderate bombs at-will, dealing 3 dice + Int damage, putting the damage on par with cantrips, but still less accurate.
Level 16: Casters gain another bump in their casting proficiency, making them even more accurate than bombers.
Level 17-18: Bombers can now grab a pair of alchemist goggles, giving them a +2 item bonus...
As I pointed out, the free bombs, given that you're a bomber (and thus already grab bomb feats) are the best of the bunch.
It's the other 3 paths that are terrible.
Chirurgeon gets literally nothing
Poisoner gets poisons that monsters fail only on a 2
Mutagenist gets some trivial +1-2 to a skill IF he doesn't have already an item for them (thus not on his main skills) AND if not high enough level to benefit from his main mutagen for hours...
Bombers at least get some watered down cantrips that can potentially be used from a debuff point of view
Many had already compared bombs (full power bombs!) to cantrips.
Thing is, you’re usually better off using a weapon, unless you really need the elemental weakness or get good benefit off the splash multiplication. This works for both cantrips and bombs.
The plus side nowadays is that bombs now are a little bit better when maxed, and sometimes compete with weapons.
I'm not sure your giving bombs enough damage credit. An acid flask may do less upfront damage, but the target must spend actions or roll well otherwise they will continue to take damage every turn. I'm pretty sure that beats out cantrips.
Other points about the none bomber paths seem pretty spot on though. Until they fix things like scaling DCs of lower poisons, those options will never be viable.
WizardsBlade wrote: I'm not sure your giving bombs enough damage credit. An acid flask may do less upfront damage, but the target must spend actions or roll well otherwise they will continue to take damage every turn. I'm pretty sure that beats out cantrips.
Other points about the none bomber paths seem pretty spot on though. Until they fix things like scaling DCs of lower poisons, those options will never be viable.
At level 7, perpetual infusions Acid flask deals 1 damage (4 with a feat) and 1d6 persistent.
It needs about 3 rounds of damage to catch up to a hit,or 2 rounds to catch up to a cantrip.
Given that in any serious combat you would never open with your weakest thing which is the perpetual bombs, it means that you'd use it at the very soonest around round 3+
So,that's round 5-6 of the combat just for it to catch up.
Bottled lightning and cold bomb are OK though as at wills for their secondary effects.
And again, bomber has a somewhat workable ability, it's the other 3 paths that are terribad.
I still think the "free" Quick Alchemy items should be usable in the same action as creation. I.e. 1 action quick alchemy your Bottled Lightning and throw. 2 actions left. later with double item creation, Quick alchemy +throw one, and 2nd action throw second. (instead of create, throw, throw)
It does get semi wonky in a few places. but it would allow it to mesh with other abilities better (in general) and the MAP still applies.
but i prefer them for the debuff effect not damage. I would be alright with using 2 actions to do 1d6+splash +flatfoot and and either the same with slow, or 1 with persistent damage. Or to toss persistent damage on 2 random bad guys. This action still isn't that significant, with options like trip or intimidate around.
In the end they could potentially do more damage than a cantrip, but at the cost of having to hit twice/deal with MAP. so i think it would be alright.. and the free usage for the other lines might help a bit with their individual issues.
----
Also Churry needs to add a static bonus of some sort to their Elixirs to make their stuff actually better than generic.
Poisoner should offset the 1 action poison to level 5, and instead recieve "use class DC" base at least (preferably with Dc increasing options)
Actually I looked over alchemist again and there is a level 8 feat (powerful alchemy) that will allow your poison DC to be your class DC. So maybe poisoner may be viable and poisons have some really nice debuffs.
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WizardsBlade wrote: Actually I looked over alchemist again and there is a level 8 feat (powerful alchemy) that will allow your poison DC to be your class DC. So maybe poisoner may be viable and poisons have some really nice debuffs. A) in order to use Quick Alchemy+ poisons, you need to spend 3 actions for 1 attack (create, apply, attack) that can potentially (~20-25% chance, 55% chance to miss, 45% chance to fail the save) do 1d4 extra damage (at level 7).
Or... You can simply swing your weapon again, do more damage, and still have 1 action left.
B) poisons, even using class DC have lower DC than spells (no expert/master/legendary adjustment) and target the universally best monster save.
Meaning that most monsters pass the save really easy and take 0 effects (unlike spells that actually deal half damage)
C) poisons actually don't have that great debuffs, more like average ones you should expect from any sort of ability of said level. Nothing that lowers Fort, highest condition is like a 2 and not a 3,no hard control like paralyse, and etc.
If you want debuffs, a caster or a rogue is way better at both applying and at effects.
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I believe perpetual bombs may not be intended for damage as much as for utility/debuffing.
Debilitating Bomb, or Making a pile of Delayed bombs, as well as many of the base bombs having there own effects, Thunderstone deafens, bottled lightning causes flatfooted, liquid ice hampers 10
Acid can in theory melt object very well, and alchemist fire seems to very good for burning things down (mechanically, I'm not sure own persistent damage works on objects, but roleplaying wise it should be better for burning things down then a torch)
very clever use of unlimited delayed bombs could in theory allow (if you can make use of it) a large number to go off at once, (you can make a bomb as 1 action, set a delay (part of making it), drop it as a free action, producing 3 a turn, next turn you make 3 more with 1 less turn of delay, eventually you will have a very big pile of explosives) this could double in potency at level 9 when you can quick alchemy 2 at once.
Delay bomb isn't valid I believe.
These bombs are still made via Quick alchemy. Which means they last until the end of the turn. OR until the end of the next turn with that one feat.
Smoke, ice, lightning are about the only truly good debuff ones. Alch Fire's persistent isn't terribly. but acid's is better. Fire's can be removed with 1 action--no roll. acid's can not. So chance of making them spend a few rounds if they be unlucky.
but the problem with them focusing on debuff is that they spend 2 actions to debuff relatively low and still require MAP. Which just makes life hard.
It isn't terribly though to debuff with flatfooted for your heavy hitters at small range..
but at the same time with those two actions you could trip and intimidate with decent chances. Honestly in my exprience so far, targeting the saves has been way more reliable than AC.
Yup, I agree with Lady Melo, the real advantage alchemist will have with the "cantrip" bombs is the debuffs they will be able to add with the debilitating bomb feats and the base effect of the bombs themselves.
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Guys... Only 1/4th of the alchemists get cantrip bombs.
We established that those are barely passable.
It's the other 75% of the alchemists that they basically get a pile of steaming...
shroudb wrote: Guys... Only 1/4th of the alchemists get cantrip bombs.
We established that those are barely passable.
It's the other 75% of the alchemists that they basically get a pile of steaming...
The poisoner and mutagen is garbage. The medic is decent.
Joey Cote wrote: shroudb wrote: Guys... Only 1/4th of the alchemists get cantrip bombs.
We established that those are barely passable.
It's the other 75% of the alchemists that they basically get a pile of steaming...
The poisoner and mutagen is garbage. The medic is decent. What are you talking about?
The medical gives +0 bonus
+2 armor is a Level 7 item.
That means you already have +2 item bonus to all saves.
At 11 you have +3 armor, so your feature is +1 vs poisons/diseases until you get +4 armor that drops it back to +0
Hey, I totally agree! What I think we see here is an entire class that is built around the fear that multi-class characters will actually get more powerful. So you want to give us the flavour of mutagens without any real benefits? It's just as powerful in the narrative to do some shots at the start of combat than to drink a mutagen that gives item bonuses less than the bonuses you'd have at that level! The bombs have been mostly fine. But, because the first impression most players have is "that sucks!", that's the only alchemist I've seen.
I think the key is to stop thinking of the alchemist as creating items. Items are weaker in this version of the game, to just provide little buffs situationally. So just restrict the alchemist to making things for herself! Elixirs can be shared, but not bombs or mutagens, so characters will have to build based on using their abilities and skills rather than just doling them out to others.
Also, stop being so scared of synergy! I'm building a Bruce Banner/Hulk and while I love the idea of a Barbarian/Alchemist, the Alchemist devotion adds nothing to the base class, and I can actually get a much more convincing Hulk using just the base class. With high Intelligence and lore skills he's Banner'd out. But I love the flavour of him in the lab, searching for the right ingredients to make Steve Rogers. Please Paizo, fix this! It's like you put the Alchemist in the base classes just to make us hate it!
Joey Cote wrote: Yup, I agree with Lady Melo, the real advantage alchemist will have with the "cantrip" bombs is the debuffs they will be able to add with the debilitating bomb feats and the base effect of the bombs themselves. And for that alone they are pretty useful. It lets you save your limited resource for building the best bombs for damage you can without having to waste them on the affect application ones. So that does wind up upping your DPS I would imagine.
Also for the chirogons while not really spectacular being able to make free anti poison anti venom elixers is pretty helpful especially if you meet some unexpected critters that apply these effects. So having the ability to make some of those on the fly is useful. Their ability at 13 is very nice. If you are going full healer alchemist making it so your quick alchemy potions always do max healing is pretty nice for those times when you need to get somebody up in a fight.
They are clearly changes in the right direction that can be improved and expanded upon. Some stuff like bomber spec can avoid hitting team mates with the splash damage right off the bat is a huge improvement and a reduction of a feat tax.
kaid wrote: Joey Cote wrote: Yup, I agree with Lady Melo, the real advantage alchemist will have with the "cantrip" bombs is the debuffs they will be able to add with the debilitating bomb feats and the base effect of the bombs themselves. And for that alone they are pretty useful. It lets you save your limited resource for building the best bombs for damage you can without having to waste them on the affect application ones. So that does wind up upping your DPS I would imagine.
Also for the chirogons while not really spectacular being able to make free anti poison anti venom elixers is pretty helpful especially if you meet some unexpected critters that apply these effects. So having the ability to make some of those on the fly is useful. Their ability at 13 is very nice. If you are going full healer alchemist making it so your quick alchemy potions always do max healing is pretty nice for those times when you need to get somebody up in a fight.
They are clearly changes in the right direction that can be improved and expanded upon. Some stuff like bomber spec can avoid hitting team mates with the splash damage right off the bat is a huge improvement and a reduction of a feat tax. those provide exactly a +0 bonus you know.
As for the utility bombs, they don't do anything for your "dps", what they do is completely different from that. They are like spamming utility/support cantrips at best (not damageing ones), like daze and etc.
I do like debilitating.. but even the lv 10 ones might not be worth the actions compared to damage output (though some of the lv 10 versions are pretty tasty debuffs....but they work off your class DC.)
Honestly debilitating bombs' effect only lasts until the start of your next turn... They really should just be a saveless effect. Class DC isn't exactly super duper. They already have bombs with no save effects. Just let the alchemist do debuff items in exchange for the very low dps.
As a sidenote. The Perpetual Bombs can't actually work with the lv 9 ability. That ability requires double paying of reagents. while the perpetual specifically states they donmt' use any reagents (fluff seems to be "you just make a lot of out scraps and always have some).
I actually would like those abilities to work. Even if just to throw a bunch of acid or bottled lightning on mooks. Acid to burn down a caster, or flat foot for the other folks to knock down a main guy. Without waisting my main supply on a mook.
Quick Bomber lv 1 feat might work.. Quick Alchemy for perputal bombs + drawing one you made during the morning creation. Say an acid flask or bottled lightning for the primary+a quick alchemy created P.I. acid or bottled lightning or ice, with debilitating effect on it.
It is a shame, even when you have the lv 9 ability, you can not make two debiltating bombs or a debiltating and smoke.
and to bring up the sidenote again.
Reagents should be made during the morning preperation.
Using the reagents should be a 10 min event, that can also take place during the morning prep.
That way you can prepare more throughout the day and save reagents (AND BULK)
Lady Melo wrote: I believe perpetual bombs may not be intended for damage as much as for utility/debuffing. Minor thunderstone, smoke bomb, powerful alchemy. It takes till level 8 but this sounds very funny and very obnoxious. Your suggested minefield tactic with delayed bomb would also expand the toolbox of obnoxiousness hear. Flashbang field is precisely the sort of thing I would be happy for players to come up with.
Would love to hear from Paizo whether it's actually intentionally that stuff like antidotes doesn't stack with magical armor, which is probably the one item that every single class will be using. (Even though magical weapons are strong, some might skip them).
I do think the feature as it is currently working is close enough to the effects of a cantrip regarding bombs or poisons (if you have the level 8 class feat to make the dc = class dc). I don't get why people say mutagens is that bad, having free mutagens let's you do certain skills or tasks you normally wouldn't do that well. Heck you could take the + to ranged attack and your hit rate is on par with a bomber alchemist and all you are really loosing is not avoiding allies with splash. But of course you don't go unlimited bestial mutagens if you plan to hit people in melee, but you should have plenty of those from your advanced alchemy to last you the day regardless.
I do agree that free antidotes is worthless waaaay to often, so either the bonus from antidotes should be conditional, circumstance or unnamed or they should get something else instead. Like an item to boost their medicine/crafting roll. Even when they get true antidotes it's hardly worth the 2 actions to create and ingest or feed someone else just for another roll against the poison.
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Nettah wrote: Would love to hear from Paizo whether it's actually intentionally that stuff like antidotes doesn't stack with magical armor, which is probably the one item that every single class will be using. (Even though magical weapons are strong, some might skip them).
I do think the feature as it is currently working is close enough to the effects of a cantrip regarding bombs or poisons (if you have the level 8 class feat to make the dc = class dc). I don't get why people say mutagens is that bad, having free mutagens let's you do certain skills or tasks you normally wouldn't do that well. Heck you could take the + to ranged attack and your hit rate is on par with a bomber alchemist and all you are really loosing is not avoiding allies with splash. But of course you don't go unlimited bestial mutagens if you plan to hit people in melee, but you should have plenty of those from your advanced alchemy to last you the day regardless.
I do agree that free antidotes is worthless waaaay to often, so either the bonus from antidotes should be conditional, circumstance or unnamed or they should get something else instead. Like an item to boost their medicine/crafting roll. Even when they get true antidotes it's hardly worth the 2 actions to create and ingest or feed someone else just for another roll against the poison.
the poisons also are terrible even with the level 8 feat.
think about it:
you need to spend 3 actions (quick alchemy, apply, attack) to make a single attack, that has a 50% chance (class DC) to do... an extra 1d4 damage.
i mean, if you simply attack twice, with 2 actions you do (on average) way more than what you will ever do with 3 action that are 1attack that just does +1d4 damage...
shroudb said wrote: the poisons also are terrible even with the level 8 feat.
think about it:
you need to spend 3 actions (quick alchemy, apply, attack) to make a single attack, that has a 50% chance (class DC) to do... an extra 1d4 damage.
i mean, if you simply attack twice, with 2 actions you do (on average) way more than what you will ever do with 3 action that are 1attack that just does +1d4 damage...
Well 50% chance to apply the poison (and likely more, because Paizo have talked about saves being to high on monsters), once poisoned the monster might get more damage. It will likely be somewhat close to same damage at best, but then again so would a cantrip. So if you are facing monsters with weaker fortitude save you can go for your cantrip poison if not just do multiple attacks.
Unless one-turn potency is supposed to mean that the duration of said poison or mutagen would only ever be one round. But that is not how I read it, and frankly that reading would make quick-alchemy over all completely useless for poisons and mutagens.
Nettah wrote: shroudb said wrote: the poisons also are terrible even with the level 8 feat.
think about it:
you need to spend 3 actions (quick alchemy, apply, attack) to make a single attack, that has a 50% chance (class DC) to do... an extra 1d4 damage.
i mean, if you simply attack twice, with 2 actions you do (on average) way more than what you will ever do with 3 action that are 1attack that just does +1d4 damage...
Well 50% chance to apply the poison (and likely more, because Paizo have talked about saves being to high on monsters), once poisoned the monster might get more damage. It will likely be somewhat close to same damage at best, but then again so would a cantrip. So if you are facing monsters with weaker fortitude save you can go for your cantrip poison if not just do multiple attacks.
Unless one-turn potency is supposed to mean that the duration of said poison or mutagen would only ever be one round. But that is not how I read it, and frankly that reading would make quick-alchemy over all completely useless for poisons and mutagens. how is 1d4 even gonna come close to something like 2d8+(1-4) that would be about how much damage your weapon would do?
that's like 4-5 concecutive failed saves for the monsters...
p.s.
the 50% chance to fail the save is already assuming monster saves will be nerfed.
fort save vs Class DC atm is way below 50%, closer to 30-40% depending on level...
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They need to say pick 2 poisons of x level or lower. Picking poisons like sleep, with the increased DC would be great. Would also like to see more inhaled poisons at lower level to go with it.
Zwordsman wrote: Delay bomb isn't valid I believe.
These bombs are still made via Quick alchemy. Which means they last until the end of the turn. OR until the end of the next turn with that one feat.
Smoke, ice, lightning are about the only truly good debuff ones. Alch Fire's persistent isn't terribly. but acid's is better. Fire's can be removed with 1 action--no roll. acid's can not. So chance of making them spend a few rounds if they be unlucky.
but the problem with them focusing on debuff is that they spend 2 actions to debuff relatively low and still require MAP. Which just makes life hard.
It isn't terribly though to debuff with flatfooted for your heavy hitters at small range..
but at the same time with those two actions you could trip and intimidate with decent chances. Honestly in my exprience so far, targeting the saves has been way more reliable than AC.
Delay bomb ONLY works with quick alchemy (and is part of using the quick alchemy action) and specifically overrides the timer. In addition to the many other things you can do with delayed bombs, you can also still use them as normal bombs (there is no language to say that is overridden) so you can in fact make a bunch of of your unlimited bombs with delay bomb ahead of time and store them on your person before going in to combat, this can work very well if your multiclassed for quickdraw... Just be sure to get rid of all of them before the timer is up or Ka-boom goes the alchemist.
Shroudb said wrote: how is 1d4 even gonna come close to something like 2d8+(1-4) that would be about how much damage your weapon would do?
that's like 4-5 concecutive failed saves for the monsters...
p.s.
the 50% chance to fail the save is already assuming monster saves will be nerfed.
fort save vs Class DC atm is way below 50%, closer to 30-40% depending on level...
If you are attacking with a melee weapon, and in that case I don't really think poison alchemy is ever worth it, since overall for poison you need to be able to apply it to a weapon prior to combat.
A composite shortbow will maybe do something like 2d6+1 damage at that level, with the low hit rate of a second attack I don't think the difference between the attack and the poison is that large. (But average damage will likely go to the shortbow second attack).
But after doing the math I do agree that I have somewhat overvalued the poison effect for level 8.
It seems pretty bad since it all require at least 2 failed saves to start giving monsters debuffs and if you are using this at below level opponents you wouldn't expect them to fight for more than 2-3 rounds once you start attacking them.
Nettah wrote: Shroudb said wrote: how is 1d4 even gonna come close to something like 2d8+(1-4) that would be about how much damage your weapon would do?
that's like 4-5 concecutive failed saves for the monsters...
p.s.
the 50% chance to fail the save is already assuming monster saves will be nerfed.
fort save vs Class DC atm is way below 50%, closer to 30-40% depending on level...
If you are attacking with a melee weapon, and in that case I don't really think poison alchemy is ever worth it, since overall for poison you need to be able to apply it to a weapon prior to combat.
A composite shortbow will maybe do something like 2d6+1 damage at that level, with the low hit rate of a second attack I don't think the difference between the attack and the poison is that large. (But average damage will likely go to the shortbow second attack).
But after doing the math I do agree that I have somewhat overvalued the poison effect for level 8.
It seems pretty bad since it all require at least 2 failed saves to start giving monsters debuffs and if you are using this at below level opponents you wouldn't expect them to fight for more than 2-3 rounds once you start attacking them. well.. if you aren't attacking with a melee weapon, you can't even use quick alchemy poisons...
i mean, you need to hold the arrow in one hand, and have a hand free, no much space to also hold the bow.
the only way to use quick alchemy poisons with ranged attacks is crossbow, and that is even worse damage...
What I would actually suggest, and which would keep cantrips and perpetual infusions at parity:
1. First, cantrips start off with ability mod to damage at 1st level, and advance dice from there, instead of adding ability mod as a 5th level character and extra dice as a 9th level character. This is necessary anyway to compare in any way at all to magic weapons.
2. Second, when doing their actual Preparations, an alchemist can prepare alchemical items as if 3-4 levels higher. So a 1st level alchemist who Prepares a bomb or poison or elixir or whatever can make an item more comparable to an actual 1st tier spell, as is fitting since this is their limited daily resource and the items lag well behind actual spells in their potency.
3. Third, Perpetual Infusions kicks in at 1st level as the alchemist's version of cantrips. It operates at roughly (slightly more than) half the alchemist's level, so our example bomber alchemist is throwing cantrip bombs with the same damage as an actual cantrip of a caster of his or her level.
4. Fourth, for bombs specifically: increase splash damage to half the base damage of the bomb (instead of only 1), BUT, when used for free via Perpetual Infusions, the splash damage IS reduced to 1. Or maybe better, to half the item level rounded up.
5. Fifth, the alchemist must prepare only a few things they can make each day via Perpetual Infusions (a la preparing cantrips for the day), so they don't just have access to their entire list of stuff known.
Shroudb said wrote: well.. if you aren't attacking with a melee weapon, you can't even use quick alchemy poisons...
i mean, you need to hold the arrow in one hand, and have a hand free, no much space to also hold the bow.
the only way to use quick alchemy poisons with ranged attacks is crossbow, and that is even worse damage...
Well maybe you can't even wield a weapon according to RAW.
"Applying alchemical poisons uses Operate Activation
actions, but these activations don’t cost Resonance Points.
A poison typically requires one hand to pour into food or
scatter in the air, or two hands to apply to a weapon or
item. The Method of Use entry for a poison describes these
typical means of application, but the GM might determine
that using poisons in other ways functions differently."
But I do see your point that it's even more impossible to apply the poison to an arrow while holding a bow.
I concede. You have convinced me that applying poison whilst in a combat situation is neither viable or maybe even feasible. Which ultimately makes a poison alchemist a decent idea on paper that doesn't really work in actual gameplay, unless you are dying to get some poison resistance and pretty much nothing else from your archetype. That is sad.
I spend some time looking at the other options and overall it seems that mutagen archetype is really only useful for a brawler type (otherwise the delayed onset doesn't matter much) and the bomb archetype is often the best choice to make in general unless you really want to do medicine with intelligence and make extra elixir of life with advanced alchemy.
I really liked the new alchemist when I first had a look at it, but doing the math and looking at the builds it seems the changes are falling short atm.
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shroudb wrote: Joey Cote wrote: shroudb wrote: Guys... Only 1/4th of the alchemists get cantrip bombs.
We established that those are barely passable.
It's the other 75% of the alchemists that they basically get a pile of steaming...
The poisoner and mutagen is garbage. The medic is decent. What are you talking about?
The medical gives +0 bonus
+2 armor is a Level 7 item.
That means you already have +2 item bonus to all saves.
At 11 you have +3 armor, so your feature is +1 vs poisons/diseases until you get +4 armor that drops it back to +0 This is more a side note than anything, but I'm not so sure that antidote is useless at level 7 specifically. +2 magic armor is a level 7 item, but the WBL chart and starting wealth for part 3 of the playtest both seem to imply that items on-level with you are available to the party as a whole, but not easy to come by for everyone. The playtest gives 1 suit of +2 armor to the whole party of 7th level, so unless the medic was the one the party decided gets the best armor, antidote still gives a +1 to the save.
Of course, you hit level 8 and that becomes meaningless pretty quick. This isn't saying there aren't big problems here, just that level 7 does have a small benefit for a bit of time.
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[Chiurgeon]perhaps for the lower level antidote and antiplauge they also autotreat very low level poison/disease (for a roleplaying application, for treating things you are much passed), and provide an immediate save attempt vs higher level affliction (if need be the target could then become bolstered from a bonus save attempts until they are rid of the affliction, so that they may not continue to drink it until they pass).
[Poisoner] might need access to unlimited poison that actually cause effects, since you would expect the poisoner to be the debuffer more than bomber. What might also work is allow quick alchemy poison to linger for 10 minutes or an hour and remain in effect. This would allow repeat use of very weak poisons to not eat in to the action economy at all. A pre-battle prep could be poisoning the whole parties weapons (even if it's only for a 50/50 shot at +1d4 damage, if it's "anytime you have a few minutes of downtime", like during treat wounds time, and can cover the whole parties weapons, that's not that bad).
[Mutagens] are not the best, however they do have some uses. Perhaps they should provide both a +x item bonus (to retain the advantage of skipping out on gear) as well as a stacking +1 alchemical{or untyped} bonus. Maybe also give them baseline effects that are not so numerical, but match the "physical change" descriptions. Increased carry capacity, a unique unarmed/natural attack, various move speeds or jump/climb/swim actions, access to special actions or effects {recall knowledge giving specific knowledge or some kind of divination spell-like effect flavored as hyper cognitive awareness, or reactions such as bull headed reacting to charms, and quicksilver giving a combat reaction), a few of them already have crit fail prevention, but additional skill-feat like enhancements might also be nice.
How many of the problems would changing the feats that ate quick alchemy only to be quick alchemy and daily prep only?
WizardsBlade wrote: How many of the problems would changing the feats that ate quick alchemy only to be quick alchemy and daily prep only? It would help both the poisoner and the bomber immensely.
For the poisoner, it would change his free poisons be something like:
For all party members:
50% if the 1st attack of an encounter hits to deal 1d4
50% for 1d4 on arrows/bows
Which is hardly game breaking.
For the bomber it is more complicated :
In general, bomb feats like debilitating are bad for your main bombs. Using them with your main bombs means 1/2 bombs/day.
And you don't even have that many.
Now, with the free bombs, you're stuck into a weird situation that you don't really want stuff like Debilitating bomb for your MAIN stuff, but you want them for your cantrip bombs.
A change that would allow you to use advanced alchemy and stuff like smoke, debi, sticky, etc, would make the feats actually worthwhile for both your main bombs and your cantrips.
For chirurgeon it would be borderline too strong imo (given the nerfed to channel)
A healing extract is exactly 1/2 the value of a Heal (without any feats for healing, with feats, it can reach 1/3).
Advanced gives you 1.5 heal per resource (but terrible action economy at 2 actions for 1/4 heal)
Maximised quick gives you around 0.8 heal per resource
If you would combine them, it would lead to something like 3 heal per resource with an action economy of 2 actions for 3/2 heal
You lost me, are you saying that a heal focused cleric would be out healed by a heal focused alchemist?
WizardsBlade wrote: You lost me, are you saying that a heal focused cleric would be out healed by a heal focused alchemist? short answer:
if abilities that applied to quick applied to advanced, yes.
long answer:
think of it like that:
ordinarily, each elixir is 1/2 a heal in value.
you can make 2 elixirs per resource with advanced, and 1 per resource with quick.
you need double the actions to use an elixir compared to a heal.
so, ordinarily, elixirs are terrible compared to heal.
now, chirurgeon gets 2 abilities:
1)instead of making with advanced 2 elixirs, he makes 3 elixirs.
that's a straight up 50% increase in value.
2)with quick, instead of healing for 1/2 of a heal, it now heals closer to something like 0.8, let's say equal for simplicity.
as long as they are seperate, it's still 100% worse than Heal, but at least somewhat managable:
advanced has better value than heal, but terrible action economy, requiring 4x the actions of heal
quick has "only" 2x the actions of heal, but it's value comes close to a heal
now, if you combine the two, you suddenly have:
each elixir will heal as much as a Heal.
you make 3 elixirs per resource
so, your value skyrockets at 3 heals /resource
action economy is also that much better, because now you don't need to be in melee range", you can have distributed the vials to people since they are already maximized, and you're now basically competing with the 2 action cast of a heal action economy wise.
so, you have the same action economy as a heal, but 3x the value /resource
Ok, I see what your saying and I mostly agree with you. The 0.8 x 3 makes your 3 a 2.4 and the 0.8 is a little high but close enough.
I was thinking about some of the differences between these though and there are some.
To use a potion it usually takes 2 actions (maybe more if your using both hands in combat) so the action economy is on par at best. Also it means that your front line/damage dealers have to spend thier actions to self heal instead of doing what they are good at. A third small disadvantage is that since the elixirs are handed out before a battle, you lose the ability to put all your heals where and when they are needed, like a cleric can.
I think there are probably enough down sides there to say that the cleric would still be the better healer.
**Edit**
I'm not trying to say this wouldn't make a great healer, because I think it would. Just that it wouldn't be over powered.
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