Thassilonian Wizard |
How does the Eternal Smith alternate racial for Aphroites work with Master Craftsman?
Some aphorites retain knowledge of the techniques axiomites used to create arms to defend Axis. Aphroites with this racial trait choose either Craft (armor), Craft (bows), or Craft (weapons). When crafting items with the chosen skill, aphroites with this racial trait use the item's gp value as its sp value when determining crafting progress (they do not multiply the item's gp cost by 10 to determine its sp cost). This racial trait replaces the spell-like ability racial trait.
Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Example: I have an Aphroite Commoner 7 with the Eternal Smith racial and the Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms & Armor feats and is focused on Craft (Armor). Does this character use the eternal smith benefit when crafting magic armor from master craftsman when determining crafting progress through silver pieces instead of gold pieces?
I am asking as normally these types of things related to crafting tend to call out magical or mundane crafting, but eternal smith doesn't.
Thassilonian Wizard |
If this applied to magic item crafting it would equate to being able to craft ten times faster. With 20 levels of fcb, a trait, and 7 assistants with the proper feat choices you could match that.
Do you think it is intended to do that?
I don't know 100% if that is the intention from paizo, but that does seem to be the effect of it that I am gleaming from it as well (10x crafting progress).
Meirril |
I concur. Eternal Smith is templated to fit the regular crafting system. The magic system uses a flat 1000gp/day (add 5 to DC to double amount per day) system to determine crafting time.
That honestly isn't bad at all. Lets say you had a 5th level crafting character that managed to get a 10 skill in craft:weapons. If you take 10 when making martial weapons (DC 15) you would normally make (20 x 15) 300sp = 30gp per week worth of weapons, with a profit of 20gp. With Etermal Smith that would be 300gp of production per week! After you manage to up your skills by another 5 you could rush the work (+10 DC) to make (25 x 25) 625gp worth of weapons per week.
Of course you aren't making big profit here since weapons retail for half of the value, but you're still make some profit on each. A little over 100gp per week. If you really wanted to make money you'd craft: jeweler or some other artistic craft so you're making artwork. Artwork 'sells' for its value. You can basically use it like cash.
Well, I guess its a good thing that Eternal Smith doesn't work on such crafts? It is limited to armor, weapons and bows.
Thassilonian Wizard |
Which normally would be fine [sp = mundane], if it called out mundane crafting in the racial ability itself. As there are other crafting related things in the game that do call out the distinction between mundane and magical such as a Forgemaster Cleric for example.
At 5th level, a forgemaster can craft mundane metal items quickly, using half their gp value to determine progress, and can craft magical metal items in half the normal amount of time.
But due to the ambiguous wording when crafting items with the chosen skill with text that simply reads "when crafting items with the chosen skill" as it makes no distinction.
The simplest answers are either:
A) Paizo forgot to add 1 word (mundane).
B) Paizo wrote it for both types of crafting.
Simply put, clarification from the person who wrote the section would be nice.
Waverider |
Looks like RAW it is for both magical crafting and mundane crafting as to me as its only changing the denomination, gold to silver, for crafting in generalist way.
If it were for just one type of crafting for RAI, in my opinion, it would read:
"When performing mundane crafting with the chosen skill, aphroites with this racial trait use the item's gp value as its sp value when determining crafting progress (they do not multiply the item's gp cost by 10 to determine its sp cost)."
Waverider |
I cannot believe that the RAI for this racial ability is to do somwthing better than any other combination of feats, traits, and class abilities is capable of.
Which is indeed surprising as they rarely tend to print this kind of power. Even if its for just mundane crafting, its a very strong racial.
The Aphroite Commoner, assuming its even level 1 based off of even a 15-point buy, could easily have: STR 12, CON 10, DEX 8, INT 20, WIS 10, CHA 8
As they naturally have a +2 INT, +2 STR, -2 DEX for racial ability scores.
With their racial ability "Skilled" where they choose any craft skill and get a +2 on it, they can pick one of Eternal Smith's craft skills and get a bonus in that area. Lets assume the chosen skill is Craft (Weapons).
Since commoners get craft as a class skill, that is another +4 bonus (1 Rank + 3 Trained).
Throw in Skill Focus (Craft) as they have one feat for a +3 bonus.
Including Masterwork Artisan's Tools (55gp) as our commoner could easily rake that much in. Giving him a further +2 bonus on crafting specifically for Craft (Weapons).
Finally picking up the traits Patient Calm [faith] (treat taking 10 as take 12 for one craft skill), Artisan [social] (+2 to one craft skill your choice), and Unblemished Barrel (+1 on craft [weapons] and some irrelevant benefits) with the drawback of Insatiable as any drawback will do here.
The final result at level 1 would be, while taking 10, is: 30.
Which according to craft rules, if our Aphroite Commoner crafted an exotic melee weapon (DC 18), while rushing his work (+10 dc) would mean that 30x28= 840 worth of crafting work.
By level 3 the Aphroite Commoner picks up Prodigy (pick two skills of any combination of craft, perform, and/or profession. You get a +2 to each of them, this becomes a +4 at level 10). One of which obviously being Craft (Weapons).
By 5th level our Aphroite Commoner picks up their Master Craftsman feat and picks Craft (Weapons). Among its magical benefits, it also provides a +2 in that craft skill.
By the time we reached level 7 where magical crafting is finally unlocked for the commoner who has Craft Magic Arms & Armor and also Master Craftsman, this commoner's result on a craft check by taking 10 would be: 40
Requirements like spells and feats for magic items are basically hand-waived as you only have to increase the DC by 5 for each you don't meet the requirement of. The base DC for magic item crafting, based on which one you are looking at, is [5 + CL] or [10+CL].
Lets say the Aphroite Commoner who is level 7 decides to craft a Ten-Ring Sword (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/ ten-ring-sword)
They don't have the requirements Mage Hand and Versatile Weapon, so that is a +10 to the DC. They decide to rush their work which is a +5 DC. So their DC to beat is either (5+7+15=27) OR (10+7+15=32).
Our Aphroite Commoner easily passes with flying colors and forges their new magic sword in just the span of 8 hours.
This isn't even factoring in magic items like Amazing Tools of Manufacture. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/too ls-amazing-tools-of-manufacture/)
Meirril |
So really, honestly and truly you want to claim that a step that is performed in mundane Crafting (determine the value of the crafted item in SP) applies to Magic Crafting where no such step is every performed? Magic Crafting always uses the flat Market Price of the item to determine the time to craft an item. While there are factors that can reduce that crafting time, the evaluation is different. Talking about the SP value in Magic Crafting makes no sense. This is like referring to a 5' step in Overland Travel because it involves Movement!
If the feat wanted you to make magic items in 1/10 the time it normally takes as well as mundane items it wouldn't bother talking about the SP conversion that only happens in mundane crafting. It would just say you make items in 1/10 the normal time.
zza ni |
as Meirril said . the text that explain this ability "(they do not multiply the item's gp cost by 10 to determine its sp cost)." woul be meaningless if it talked about magical item creation.
which by the way is also named specificly difrent.
mundane crafting uses the term crafting armor\weapons. while making magical stuff uses the term magic item CREATION.
Waverider |
as Meirril said . the text that explain this ability "(they do not multiply the item's gp cost by 10 to determine its sp cost)." woul be meaningless if it talked about magical item creation.
which by the way is also named specificly difrent.
mundane crafting uses the term crafting armor\weapons. while making magical stuff uses the term magic item CREATION.
False. Its referred to as crafting as well. It has crafting feats, DCs, traits, archetypes, spells, etc. Even the language of "creating" a magic item uses the word "crafting" and "craft".
Waverider |
Also lets look at what the requirements for crafting a Magic Bow or Magic Weapon takes...
Feat(s) Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill(s) Required: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
How about Magic Armor?
Feat(s) Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill(s) Required: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).
Would you look at that. Crafting magic bows, weapons, or armor can use Craft (Bows), Craft (Weapons), or Craft (Armor).
What does the Aphroite's Eternal Smith reference? Craft (Bows), Craft (Weapons), Craft (Armor)
If the Aphroite isn't a commoner and is some sort of spellcaster with Craft Magic Arms and Armor and they use Craft (Weapon) for example for the skill check to craft a Magic Weapon, they roll a craft check and have to beat a craft DC.
PokeyCA |
True, but their craft DC check never gets multiplied by the DC to produce a value to see if the crafting is done for magical crafting. The time for magical creation is only based on the market price of the item divided by 1000, for how many days it will take. This time can be reduced in half by adding 5 to the DC (certain other things might make this quicker as well, e.g. Familiar with Valet archetype).