Grapple and flying

[DireMerc]

So here my scenario, a huge black dragon is flying. He has snatch.

He attacks a character and hits and grapples him.

They are flying over a lake can the dragon then stop flying and drop into the water dragging the character down with him?

In the same round I mean.

[ckdragons]

As per RAW, with a successful grapple check, the attacker can move the defender up to 1/2 his movement rate.

Thus, after the black dragon has used its Snatch ability in the previous round, it can make a new grapple check in the current round (with a +5 bonus because its already grappling the defender). If the black dragon's grapple check is greater than the defender's CMD, both can be moved up to 100 feet (because the dragon's fly speed is 200 feet) in the direction of the dragon's choosing.

However, if the dragon moves the defender into a hazardous location (GM's discretion on what that would be, expect table variation), the defender receives a free attempt to break the grapple with a +4 bonus.

[DireMerc]

Can the dragon move on the same turn he grabbed him or only on the next turn?

[ckdragons]

The dragon cannot move the same turn it initiated the grapple. Snatch provides a free grapple attempt when the dragon successfully lands a bite or claw attack. This is its standard action for the round. So, unless the dragon has some method to perform a 2nd standard action in that round, it is "stationary" after it successfully grapples until the next turn.

Now, allow me to expand your question further. The standard huge black dragons also have Flyby Attack, which grants the dragon an attack at any point during its movement (up to 100 feet). Does the dragon get to "move" his grappled opponent during such an attack type?

For example, the dragon is 50 feet away from its target. It chooses to use Flyby Attack with its bite attack. The dragon moves 50 feet, successfully makes a bite attack, followed up with the free grapple check from Snatch, which also is successful. Is the dragon allowed to continue its movement, another 50 feet, to complete its Flyby Attack and drag his grappled opponent with it?

[willuwontu]

Flyby Attack wrote:

This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.

Prerequisite: Fly speed.

Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.

Snatch wrote:

This creature can grab other creatures with ease.

Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.

Benefits: The creature can start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the grab ability. If it grapples a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage with a successful grapple check. A snatched opponent held in the creature’s mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature’s breath weapon, if it has one.

The creature can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 1d6 × 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled. If the creature flings a snatched opponent while flying, the opponent takes this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

Grab Special Attack wrote:

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature’s Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Format: grab; Location: individual attacks and special attacks.

Grappled Condition wrote:

A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.

Casting Spells while Grappled/Grappling: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell.

Grapple Rules wrote:

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Grapple Move wrote:

Move

You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

The dragon could make a grapple attempt as part of their attack, however they wouldn't be able to continue moving afterwards unless they took the -20 to their grapple attempt to use only their claws to grapple. The creature would move with them as a grappled creature shares an adjacent open square to you. Also flying into the air would give them a free attempt to escape with a +4 bonus as that is a hazardous location.

[DireMerc]

Hmm but in this case the dragon is flying could he not as a free action just stop beating his wings and let gravity do it's work while dragging the player down with him.

[willuwontu]

DireMerc wrote:

Hmm but in this case the dragon is flying could he not as a free action just stop beating his wings and let gravity do it's work while dragging the player down with him.

Sure, but it's still a hazardous location, so the player would get a free action to escape with a +4.

[MrCharisma]

DireMerc wrote:

Hmm but in this case the dragon is flying could he not as a free action just stop beating his wings and let gravity do it's work while dragging the player down with him.

First, i feel like this is a case that isn't covered well by the rules. If you're the GM, decide how you want this to work and write it all down so that it's consistent. Then i would either tell the players beforehand, or (if you don't want to spoil the encounter) run it, and when they question your rules say you've modified them and show them after the encounter. Remember that what's good for the GM is good for the players, so expect to see this used both ways.

If you're a player, ask the GM.

As far as rules are concerned, i believe you could stop flapping as a free action, but you'd have to drop the player. If you want to drg them down you'd have to use the grapple rules (of course dropping the player in the drink might be just as bad for them as dragging them down).

My 2cp

[DireMerc]

I'm the Gm the battle has been going on for some time and the dragon is losing rather badly so I just wanted to extend the battle by a few rounds by having him snatch a player and dive underwater but I will have him just hold on to him and use his breath weapon next round if he is still alive.

In any case thanks for the info.

[LordKailas]

the fly skill seems to indicate that you could "choose" to stop flying and fall as per falling rules, since many of the checks have to do with "make a check to do X and not fall to the ground". As has been indicated, this may result in another free grapple attempt by the character to escape since they are being moved to a new hazardous location.

[ckdragons]

LordKailas wrote:

the fly skill seems to indicate that you could "choose" to stop flying and fall as per falling rules, since many of the checks have to do with "make a check to do X and not fall to the ground". As has been indicated, this may result in another free grapple attempt by the character to escape since they are being moved to a new hazardous location.

The standard huge black dragon has Fly +17, which allows it to auto-succeed on most Fly checks, including Hover. It will not fall if it decides to stop moving forward.

[LordKailas]

ckdragons wrote:

LordKailas wrote:

the fly skill seems to indicate that you could "choose" to stop flying and fall as per falling rules, since many of the checks have to do with "make a check to do X and not fall to the ground". As has been indicated, this may result in another free grapple attempt by the character to escape since they are being moved to a new hazardous location.

The standard huge black dragon has Fly +17, which allows it to auto-succeed on most Fly checks, including Hover. It will not fall if it decides to stop moving forward.

I wasn't aware that making skill checks were mandatory. I assume you can choose to not make a check and suffer the consequences of not rolling. There is a difference between trying to fail a check and just not making it in the 1st place.

If my character falls into a river, I assume I can choose to not roll a swim check and just suffer whatever the consequences are. I see no reason flying couldn't be the same.

[Kayerloth]

I'm with Lord Kailas overall. The dragon is now falling and I would not want to be the character under a falling dragon, even one hitting water.

Even more so I agree with Mr Charisma the very dynamic nature of this sort of combat is full of flaws when played out in the very stop and go, turn based nature of D&D combat. The dragon isn't really hovering after grabbing the character with Snatch he's still moving forward at 200ft/rd more or less. The mechanics merely create the illusion of a 'pause' in his movement. Unless, of course, the dragon actually wants to pull nose up and hover (since his skill proficiency allows him to) ...

[DM Livgin]

I would run it that because the dragon was flying this turn, he can't just drop. That would happen at the start of the next turn if he chooses to not continue flying. If he wants to enter the water on this turn he will be diving as allowed by the fly rules (double speed going down)?

This has the upside of giving everyone a chance to respond to the situation.