Is a high level martial character viable without high level magic weapons / armor?


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Wizards start with a free spellbook that they get to upgrade for free as they level, enough to maintain a basic level of competence in their role in the party, even if the GM doesn't give them access to a wise sage they can learn new spells from or whatever.

If all martials started with a free weapon and armor that they got to add magical bonuses to as they leveled then there wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.


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Themetricsystem wrote:


The Fighter is no more reliant on his weapon than a Spellcaster is reliant on their Focus/Spellbook and a good nights rest, which by the way, is WAY easier to take away from the PCs than a good Sword.

Unless the spellcaster is a sorcerer. Or in pf1 if the wizard's got some spell mastery feats, not that I've ever seen a wizard actually take spell mastery. Also, the wizard still would have his remaining prepared spells for that day, as you noted, while a fighter that loses his sword is screwed for the rest of the day.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:

Wizards start with a free spellbook that they get to upgrade for free as they level, enough to maintain a basic level of competence in their role in the party, even if the GM doesn't give them access to a wise sage they can learn new spells from or whatever.

If all martials started with a free weapon and armor that they got to add magical bonuses to as they leveled then there wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.

Well it'd be kind of weird if every fighter just happened to have a superpowerful ancestral weapon...

Actually, no, I could see that being an interesting idea for a setting's culture where nearly every family has an ancient sword that they pass down and it gets stronger with each generation. I don't think it fits golarion, though.

And would monk's fists just get magic pluses instead of having to buy handwraps, because if so I want this to happen.


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Personally I had high hopes for the proficiency system. So much to tie to that, scaling effects for feats (we all know non-scaling feats suck, right?), opening up new uses for skills (to be augmented by skill feats, not locked behind them), and of course the martial classes doing damage.

Does anyone remember the casters whining that they now have to jump through loops to do HP damage that begins to compare to fighting classes? There are so many things casters can do that nobody else can, but noo, that isn't good enough for them, is it? Unless they can steal the martial's thunder too, they just won't be satisfied. Or ever for that matter.

No, the core competency of martial classes is inflicting HP damage, so this MUST be an intrinsic quality of the classes themselves. Sure, good quality weapons help with hitting, and thus inflicting damage, but we can't have them be dependent on items.

What can martials do? Hit hard. What can't they do? Deal with resistances, incorporeal foes or inflict elemental damage, fly or burrow or breathe under water. THIS, and only THIS is what they should need magic for: To mitigate these effects and conditions that hinder them at doing their job. Have magical weapons defeat resistances, be Ghost Touch or Flaming, Freezing, what have you, let them allow people to fight under water without hindrance, that sort of thing. But do NOT make a an entire CONCEPT, that of dealing HP damage, slave to having the right bling. It was a thing I personally detest.

Also, saying that a wizard without a spell book can't cast spells is not true. He can cast just fine. He can just not memorize any new spells. Better make those magic bullets he has left count...

And that is just ONE class out of... how many caster classes? Precisely. But ALL martial classes are hosed if their damage potential is chained to a single item. Not cool, not fun. Let the concept of mandatory magic die already. Mandatory magic isn't magical at all, it is mundane, outright banal even. A tax to be paid, not a boon to be enjoyed.

Why not tie extra damage dice to proficiency and level? Power Attack already sets the precedent for getting extra damage at 10th level. No proficiency required (a lost opportunity to make proficiencies matter in this case). So why not get extra dice at 10th level and upon reaching Master and Legendary proficiencies (Expert would be problematic seeing how early Fighters get it...)?

Or how about, if we absolutely must tie extra damage to potency runes, how about they do not offer extra dice, but increase the die size of a weapon by one step? A Dagger +1 gets promoted from 1d4 to 1d6, but the number of d6 would be tied to proficiency still. Everybody would benefit from a magic weapon, but the more skilled and experienced ones would benefit more. At the same time the loss of the weapon would no longer be so catastrophic.

Edit: Ugh, I just realized Fighters get Masters at 3rd level, I was thinking Expert. That is still a wee bit early for an extra damage die...


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short answer: no

long answer: noooooooooooooooo--
as (at least currently) the game's numeric balance is set in such a way that it assumes a certain level of player wealth/equipment when confronting a given threat (be it DCs or attacks/defenses/saves), based on your level. there are solutions or workarounds to this, but with the core gameplay loop being [face challenges] -> [acquire loot] -> [power up] -> [face greater challenge], and circled by [story], there's a lot of work involved in trying to fix that if any of those core steps is messed with. so walking around with a character who hasn't had access to the [power up] step in the loop is not going to contribute as expected for a given challenge.


Themetricsystem wrote:


Pinning a Druid and pulling an oversized Chainshirt over their head is an OLD trick to taking out Druids, you only even need to get it on for 1 round and BOOM they can't cast spells, shapeshift, or use any class abilities for 24 hours, even if they take it off. It works even easier if you can Beguiling Gift them a Metal Shield since they only need to fail 1 Save and they're instantly powerless minions.

O_O

. . .

I gotta try that . . .


Ediwir wrote:

A lv13+ fighter is expected to have a +3 weapon (+4 weapons aren't expected until lv17). Let's call it a longsword for easy numbers.

The +2 to hit lost isn't too much of a big deal (harsh, but can be recovered with some buffs), but the 2d8 lost are. You go from an average of 23 damage per hit (4d8+5) to an average of 14 (40% damage loss), and many feats rely on the number of damage dice.

Coupled with the lost +2, you've basically halved the damage output if not worse. The answer is no, he's a liability (unless he uses specific feats that focus on doing non-damage, like combat grab).

So what I'm hearing is that PF2 is not the system for folks that like to run low magic/magic items are rare type of games, which is something my group likes to do from time to time just to play something that's similar in flavor to Conan, for instance.


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Lycar wrote:
Does anyone remember the casters whining that they now have to jump through loops to do HP damage that begins to compare to fighting classes? There are so many things casters can do that nobody else can, but noo, that isn't good enough for them, is it? Unless they can steal the martial's thunder too, they just won't be satisfied. Or ever for that matter.

I mean, DC scaling is about as bad as AC scaling, where it's as difficult to get competitive DCs on spells as it is to get competitive AC, but point taken.

Quote:

No, the core competency of martial classes is inflicting HP damage, so this MUST be an intrinsic quality of the classes themselves. Sure, good quality weapons help with hitting, and thus inflicting damage, but we can't have them be dependent on items.

What can martials do? Hit hard. What can't they do? Deal with resistances, incorporeal foes or inflict elemental damage, fly or burrow or breathe under water. THIS, and only THIS is what they should need magic for: To mitigate these effects and conditions that hinder them at doing their job. Have magical weapons defeat resistances, be Ghost Touch or Flaming, Freezing, what have you, let them allow people to fight under water without hindrance, that sort of thing. But do NOT make a an entire CONCEPT, that of dealing HP damage, slave to having the right bling. It was a thing I personally detest.

This. This exactly. Fighters and dealing damage are one of, if not the only case where a class' core abilities are insufficient to fill its role. It would be like a cleric needing to invest in UMD and healsticks to be an effective healer. It's reasonable to make fighters look for a special weapon like one with ghost touch to be able to effectively fight something, or even to need to switch between weapons based on damage type. The complaint is when the only way for fighters to be able to deal an appreciable amount of damage- something they're supposed to specialize in- is by getting a magic weapon or magically enhancing their strength.

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