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As I read through the Resonance update, I saw plenty I liked and some things that gave me pause. I wish I could test these out but I am not sure if I will be able to. My groups are focused on finishing Doomsday dawn. Maybe I will run a one shot of this on FG on Friday Night but I can't commit to that. Anywho, concerns...
Chief among my concerns as I read through the Resonance Test was all these 1/day use items. I do not like the large amounts of extra record keeping PF2 has in general and this adds more to it. I also feel this is not enough of a shift away from the old resonance system since after that use Focus must be used to use the item.
A good example of this are the Bracers of Missile Deflection. They read:
A ranged weapon Strike targets you and you aren’t flat-footed against that attack; You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to AC against the triggering attack. You can activate the bracers once per day. After you’ve activated the bracers, you can activate them again in the same day by spending 1 Focus Point each time you do so.
First things first, this is an Invested item. So, this uses one of your ten magic item slots already. Also, you have to use your reaction (so, only against one attack a round). Finally, after you use it ONCE, you have to spend Focus to use it again. I dunno. It doesn't feel very good.
I would keep it as an Invested item but I would change it as follows:
A ranged weapon Strike targets you and you aren’t flat-footed against that attack; You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to AC against the triggering attack. You may spend 1 Focus Point to increase this bonus to 2.
I would maybe boost the bonus to 3 on focus use. I dunno. paizo can figure that out.
Now wands. This is how they currently work:
Once per day, you can activate the wand and spend one of its charges to cast the listed spell at the indicated level. You can spend 1 Focus Point and another charge to cast the spell again that day. Once you do, for the rest of the day, you can continue activating the wand and spending one charge to cast the spell again without spending more Focus Points.
So, you get one use without focus, then you have to use focus to use it all you want. Each use still eats up a charge. Man, so much tracking. So, first thing, and this may not be popular, I would make wands INVESTED and require the user to have the relevant spell list and so on. Then I would do this:
You can activate the wand and spend one of its charges to cast the listed spell at the indicated level.
That's it. Gotta keep it simple guys.
Also, I can see maybe adding special "Focus" spends on each wand too to make the triggered spells hit a larger radius or have a neater effect. Maybe the wand can have some metamagic baked in that requires focus for use? I dunno, just spit ballin'.
Here's one last one. The Hat of Disguise (an Invested item). This is how its written in the Resonance Test:
Activate 1 minute (Interact) Once per day, you can activate the hat to cast a 1st-level illusory disguise spell on yourself. While setting up the disguise, you can also alter the hat to appear as a comb, ribbon, helm, or other piece of headwear. After you’ve activated the hat, you can activate it again in the same day by spending 1 Focus Point each time
This is how I would change it:
Activate 10 minutes (Interact) You can activate the hat to cast a 1st-level illusory disguise spell on yourself. While setting up the disguise, you can also alter the hat to appear as a comb, ribbon, helm, or other piece of headwear. You can spend 1 Focus Point to activate this as an action.
So, you can use the thing all day but if you use Focus it improves the use in a significant way.
Anywho, whatever Paizo decides to do here, the gist of this suggestion is please, please reduce the amount of fiddly bits that must be tracked. These suggestions are just meant to illustrate a point. They may not be perfectly balanced and, surely, Paizo can do a much better job than me at making these things. All I know is that 1/Day charge items do not help reduce the fiddly bits one has to worry over in play. Please Paizo, less fiddly stuff!
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Once per day uses are actually pretty easy to keep track of as long as nothing has more than that without Focus. It becomes tricky and confusing when there are 1/day things and 3/day things and the like, but everything being once per day you can just check them off as you use them the first time.
That's not especially hard.
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I just disagree. It would be far easier to just track Focus not have to place tick marks next to items. One of the benefits of focus should be the elimination of "use per day" per item.
This game has enough going on. Stage based Afflictions, Focus points, Hero Points, Bonus Types, etc etc. It just doesn't need any more. It needs less.
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Chief among my concerns as I read through the Resonance Test was all these 1/day use items. I do not like the large amounts of extra record keeping PF2 has in general and this adds more to it. I also feel this is not enough of a shift away from the old resonance system since after that use Focus must be used to use the item.
Agreed. 100%. Completely remove 1/day items and provide more Resonance Focus Points to counterbalance.
Kai:
I dunno if I would add more Focus points. I would just look for ways to make the items usable without focus points and then allow focus use to to make the item use much better (see examples above).
With wands, I would would just make them invested and let folks use them without any focus whatsoever. I mean, they already have charges to limit that sort of thing.
Nettah:
Well, if you read the examples I wrote above, I don't think it has to be that way.
Nettah:
Well, Paizo clearly wants to limit wands (hence, their Focus cost in the current Resonance Test). Frankly, I am not trying to offer Paizo suggestions that run CONTRARY to their design.
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Don't even see the reason to make people invest in wands. If scrolls are only costing gold I can see no reason why the wand should have other limitations.
To differentiate them, I'd imagine...but this doesn't quite accomplish that in an appealing way. Staves, on the other hand, now stand out in a good unique way. Just need to get Wands there.
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Don't even see the reason to make people invest in wands. If scrolls are only costing gold I can see no reason why the wand should have other limitations.
They've noted that it lets them make the cost break on Wands much greater, and thus does indeed differentiate them.
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The wands definitely bug me, yeah. I'm tracking a 1/day usage, charges, and if it's had focus spent on it today. For every wand I have. That is just too many different things for one item.
Ideally I would have one thing to track for a given item. For wands, that used to be charges, but they really don't seem to want to just leave that as it was.
So perhaps now wands should not have charges at all, nor have free daily usage. Spend a focus and you get 3 castings from the wand. Then the only thing you're tracking is how many casts you have left in that wand.
What if you could invest more resonance in an item to increase it's base uses/day.
So you have your Bracers of Missile Deflection. 1 Resonance and 1/day they do their special thing. You decide. "I really like this, so I'm going to devote more of my personal magical aura to them" So now I've assigned 3 of my Resonance and they are 3/day item.
and I still have the option of spending Focus to go beyond that per day limit, but the Extra investment gives you more room before it's an issue so that Focus can be held for other things, plus it's gives a way for Low Charisma guys to get some extra uses out of them.
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What if you could invest more resonance in an item to increase it's base uses/day.
So you have your Bracers of Missile Deflection. 1 Resonance and 1/day they do their special thing. You decide. "I really like this, so I'm going to devote more of my personal magical aura to them" So now I've assigned 3 of my Resonance and they are 3/day item.
and I still have the option of spending Focus to go beyond that per day limit, but the Extra investment gives you more room before it's an issue so that Focus can be held for other things, plus it's gives a way for Low Charisma guys to get some extra uses out of them.
That just sounds more and more complicated. Its also in many ways worse than the old resonance system (basically, pre-spending resonance instead of in the moment).
Whatever solution Paizo takes, it should be one that is simple to use in play.
I would suggest adopting a simple design frame and sticking to it.
For example, from what I gather, resonance is basically magic item slots. Focus is basically for improving magic item use and using special abilities. I would suggest that any further design stick to those simple design frames and should try to avoid confusing exceptions/use per day/tracking/etc stuff.
You can activate the wand and spend one of its charges to cast the listed spell at the indicated level.
This is a blast!
Set wand charges to 5 or 10 (with appropriate cost) and require investment. Focus, if it makes it to the final rules, may allow casting the spell without expending a charge (probably with some limitations, for example only if you have access to the spell).Problem solved!
Really, you can use the low level Heal wand if you want, but by the time its cost become trivial it's probably contending with permanent items or with other wands for Resonance, and the low number of charges make it less interesting than an higher level one.
Please try to find any defects this approach may have; right now I find it so good that I want to stick it with capital letters where the developers can see it!
EDIT: corrected some things about Focus spending.
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Megistone:
I would suggest the invested wand still use a charge but optional Focus use could make the wand use be MUCH better. I want to be EXCITED about using focus.
Either way, I just want whatever they do to get rid of that weird 1/day thing some of these items have going on. If they get rid of that somehow and just reduce all this fiddly tracking, I will be a happy camper. Folks shouldn't need play aids or a super well designed character sheet to play a game. A well designed game is playable with dice, a simple sheet and maybe minis and a mat.
Mechanically and thematically, I also wish they would stick to a clear frame of what Resonance and Focus should do. So Resonance should be all about being able to USE certain items and Focus is all about SUPERCHARGING THE USE of those items and using SPECIAL POWERS. The current implementation gets away from that by making Focus about reusing some items which I thought was what Resonance/Investment was about; basically, I want this to also be more intuitive and require less explaining.
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Chief among my concerns as I read through the Resonance Test was all these 1/day use items. I do not like the large amounts of extra record keeping PF2 has in general and this adds more to it. I also feel this is not enough of a shift away from the old resonance system since after that use Focus must be used to use the item.Agreed. 100%. Completely remove 1/day items and provide moreResonanceFocus Points to counterbalance.
Yeah. I'd just ditch the focus to improve items thing entirely. And stop the item nerfs that went with it, decouple focus from spell points and increase the size of the pool. Then just use focus as a replacement for charges and x/day items. Reduces tracking, makes some of these bad items actually worth using and removes the incentive to pack multiple copies of a single item.
As it is, focus doesn't really solve any problems other than the nerfing of items to go with the removal of resonance. Frankly, I don't accept that they should be nerfed. Magic is too weak already. They need to stop focusing on keeping things from being too good, because in the process they're making them too bad.
A replacement for charges and x/day uses is an actual improvement. They seem to want to do something like that, but keep adding limited uses and charges anyway, like it's a bad habit they can't kick.
Well, Paizo clearly wants to limit wands (hence, their Focus cost in the current Resonance Test). Frankly, I am not trying to offer Paizo suggestions that run CONTRARY to their design.
But sometimes, the design goals need to be reevaluated.
They do seem to be open to changing goals. Previously they seemed dedicated to cutting down between combat healing. Eventually they relented and created Treat Wounds, and it's very popular.
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Yeah. I'd just ditch the focus to improve items thing entirely.
I agree. I don't see the need for a mechanic to overcharge magic items (unless it's a class feature of an Artificer type). I do understand the theoretic appeal but in practice this system doesn't need another layer of complication.
...decouple focus from spell points and increase the size of the pool.
Eh. I hate the name Spell Points so I'd rather that they call the generic point pool for class abilities "Focus" and label the charge/use per day powering pool something else. Focus is nice and generic, could stand in for Ki or any number of things. I don't mind "class ability pool" and "charge/use per day pool" being the same. But, either way, 1 + CHA (2 for Gnomes) seems far too small.
Then just use focus as a replacement for charges and x/day items. Reduces tracking, makes some of these bad items actually worth using and removes the incentive to pack multiple copies of a single item.
This is what I was hoping for.
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I do not see value in arguing with the devs on core design goals. That, frankly, is not why I made this thread.
The messaging behind this thread is chiefly around ease of use and asking the devs to pursue an intuitive implementation of magic item use that reduces unneccessary book-keeping.
I would suggest the invested wand still use a charge but optional Focus use could make the wand use be MUCH better. I want to be EXCITED about using focus.
Well, the Focus use I proposed was just an example of what it could be; I'm open to anything interesting (free heightening, or whatever). The core rule is that wands should have limited charges and require Resonance investment to be used for the day.
This would be extremely simple. It solves the low-level spamming problem without changing the economy, and encourages the players to use more level-appropriate items because of convenience, not hard limits.(To be honest, a limit IS there; but it's quite a soft one.)
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Zorae:
Clearly, Paizo wants to limit wand use one way or the other. I just presented an example that would promote parallel structure and less fiddly exceptions that aligns to their stated goals for magic item use. If a player wants to use a stack of wands, they use their resonance on them. Focus could be used to "Super Charge" its use (to use Bonner's words). Its a choice. Its meaningful. Whats the problem? I guess I come from 5e where wands are "attuned to" - so, it doesn't particularly bother me (and in that game you can only attune to 3 items!).
But, I honestly don't have a dog in the wand fight. I plainly do not care what they do with wands just so long as they streamline the game somehow and get rid of this extra tracking. Any one of the current fiddly bits (dents, 1/day items, focus, resonance, hero points, bonus types/stacking, dozens of conditions, sensed/concealed/etc, finnicky diagonals, etc etc) seems like something I could handle, but when taken as a whole it is at times unfun.
I am assuming that some of this is is due to this being a playtest; Paizo likely wants to test many systems. But I am concerned because this game is supposedly meant to be released in less than a year and it still has so many ease of use issues. At some point, they have to sit down and start designing around how WELL the game plays at a table.