Several questions about a Dragonkin character


Rules Questions


Okay, so I'm about to start my first Starfinder game, and I have a player who wants to play a Dragonkin Armor Storm soldier. Unfortunately, there are a slew of questions that this pairing raises. I only have access to the CRB and AA1, so hopefully at least some of these are answered elsewhere.

1) How does power armor work for large races? The armor is given its own size category, and the only early-level suit is medium. Are the sizes meant to be an adjustment relative to character size? Can large races not wear power armor until they hit level 10 and can access the Spider Harness? (And don't talk to me about the cargo lifter. I don't hate my players. =P )

2) Flight. The power armor section says that the suit's bulk doesn't count against the character while it's being worn, and the armor size section says that new gear is considered to be tailored for the person buying it. Personally, I think it's a bit of a stretch to picture someone flying around in hundreds of pounds of metal, but the player made a good argument about a tailored suit augmenting his wings the same way it would augment his legs. I'm inclined to allow it, but I want to make sure that I'm not missing some ruling somewhere about flying in heavy/powered armor.

3) Riding. Two players are planning to play a bonded pair, buddy-cop style. At 1 bulk/10 pounds, unless the partner is an Ysoki, I don't see how flying into battle together could work, no matter how cool it would be. I found an old thread that asked about this, but no official answer was available. I'm hoping that this has been addressed?

4) Do Dragonkin even have to be Large? The AA says that terrestrial Dragonkin are 15' long, but that a spacefaring variety exists that's half that size. That's no bigger than a Vesk. Wouldn't that be a medium creature? Are there stats for this breed that I've missed?

I'll probably think of half a hundred other questions, but those are all I can come up with at the moment. Thanks in advance to anyone who is able to help!

-Raiki


1. As far as I can tell, this would fall under adjusting a thing at the time of purchase for your particular race.

2. There's nothing disallowing using a race's innate powers of flight.

3. There are no rules about carrying/riding that I'm aware of.

4. Yes, they are large. No, there's no alternate stats.

Feel free to homebrew your way to a resolution that everyone can live with, but these are the rules as I understand them.


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Pantshandshake wrote:


2. There's nothing disallowing using a race's innate powers of flight.

I'll direct to you a quote from Owen that states Power armor is like a vehicle's speed, and thus replaces your movement. So you don't get to use any of your innate movement modes with Power armor, you can only use the options the power armor provides.

See post http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v72l?Rapid-Response-and-Power-Armor#2


I mean, I agreed then, and I agree now, that a power armor's land speed replaces the character's land speed.

Ditto for other kinds of speeds, if those movement types are shared between the character and the armor.

I did not then, nor do I now, think that a power armor with a land speed of 30 and no flight speed precludes a character using a racial fly speed.

Mainly because:
Q: Does a bonus to land speed get added to a power armor?
A: No, it acts like a vehicle and replaces your speed.

Does not, to me, say anything about any other kinds of movement.


Pantshandshake wrote:

I mean, I agreed then, and I agree now, that a power armor's land speed replaces the character's land speed.

Ditto for other kinds of speeds, if those movement types are shared between the character and the armor.

I did not then, nor do I now, think that a power armor with a land speed of 30 and no flight speed precludes a character using a racial fly speed.

Mainly because:
Q: Does a bonus to land speed get added to a power armor?
A: No, it acts like a vehicle and replaces your speed.

Does not, to me, say anything about any other kinds of movement.

Just to work through the implications of that:

In that case, its easier to fly in power armor than in heavy armor, since heavy armor has a speed adjustment penalty, which applies to all speed.

Secondly, armors without a flight speed can be faster at flying than those that do have a flight speed, because a racial flight speed might be faster.

Alternatively, does mean I can take a ground vehicle and fly with it using my racial flight speed? If power armor acts like a vehicle in regards to movement?


I think there's no question that you can't use fly or swim speeds while in power armor unless the armor itself provides those speeds.


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If your not using the armor's movement to move and instead were using your own wings to fly than the armors bulk would logically apply making it impossible (falls under armor picked up and carried i would think. pg 204 Bulk)


1) In addition to the above answer, I'd look into picking up the armory for the additional power armor options and rules for upgrading power armor.

2) Is tricky, but I'd lean towards they can only move how the power armor can move unless they want to deal with it's bulk.

3) While cool, the partner bond has better benefits when the partner is not riding. A quick and dirty house rule would have the rider adding bulk, and also losing his move action if the dragonkin moves.

4)Easy to houserule a medium variant, but no stat block exists.


I would be careful even allowing a Dragonkin in the game as a playable character as they are hands and feet above every other race in the rulebook.

They have flight, a breath weapon, immunitites, reach, darkvision and low-light vision.

These abilities can throw a massive imbalance in to the game for your players and yourself as a GM.

This is going to put that player at a massive advantage over every other character who plays a normal race.

As to your questions I would say the following:
1). I would add a cost for a larger power armor being custom created for a large creature. 10% more credits or so would be acceptable.

2). Flight has been answered. While wearing power armor, the power armor's movement types supersede your own as a player. If the suit doesn't have a fly speed, the character can't fly.

3). There are rules governing mounted combat that are part of the game. (page 149 of the rulebook under the Survival skill) One player would have to serve as the mount and the other as the rider. I don't think either would find the arrangement equitable. You may try and adhoc some of the vehicle combat rules if you wish a variation.

4). Yes they are large.

Again, I advisee extreme care in allowing this as it will throw your game out of balance and make encounters either trivial or more dangerous for characters without those advantages. The stat block in the AA is meant to be used for NPC's that you as a GM create to challenge the players.


Magyar5 wrote:

I would be careful even allowing a Dragonkin in the game as a playable character as they are hands and feet above every other race in the rulebook.

They have flight, a breath weapon, immunitites, reach, darkvision and low-light vision.

These abilities can throw a massive imbalance in to the game for your players and yourself as a GM.

This is going to put that player at a massive advantage over every other character who plays a normal race.

I disagree with that assessment.

At best you might say they have an advantage in combat, as that is the only thing their abilities apply to. But I'm not even sure that is a valid statement. All their abilities except sleep immunity can be replicated with relatively cheap, low level equipment.

The most useful thing that might matter every fight is they have reach. In exchange, they're large, which makes it much harder to get total cover, move in straight lines around the battlefield, and fit into tight spaces. Also, I think when you're targeting a creature that takes up more than 1 square, you can pick any of the squares they take up when determining cover, although I could be wrong on that point.

Compare to a medium or small sized character picking up a tactical pike or whip-like weapon. These can be purchased at level 1, and fit into a 1000 credit budget. In any case, reach is no where near as strong as it used to be in Pathfinder as you can only take 1 attack of opportunity each round in any case.

Their breath weapon is really no better than a grenade or other AoE weapon (and grenades add dexterity to their saving throw, instead of Con). A typical envoy, mechanic, or ranged soldier with a Dex of 16 or 18 is going to make a DC 13-14, 15' radius (aka 30' diameter), 1d6 P attack with a grenade, for 35 credits.

At level 3, the flame breath jumps to 1d6+4, but at that point, actual blast and explode heavy weapons are available which also add level to damage, and can do that all day instead of once per 10 minute rest. And the breath weapon will eventually fall behind mid to late game in terms of damage.

They have one immunity, sleep, which is a rare condition to be inflicted as far as I can tell. I still haven't seen it used in SFS yet, in levels 1-5. Its just not going to come up often. The +2 to paralysis is nice, but no better than say the Vesk's +2 vs fear.

They get Darkvision and low-light. Darkvision is a level 1 armor upgrade, or a level 3 cybernetic eyes implant. Or anyone can use the built in flashlight in their communicator (which is built into every armor).

Their flight is extremely limited until level 5, when everyone has the option of getting a jetpack. They can't melee in the air from levels 1-4 without falling, unless they're a Solarian with Stellar Rush, since then they can charge with flight, then move down to the ground with their remaining move. By 10th or so, when everyone is upgrading to forcepacks, they'll need to do the same, or else fall behind in terms of combat flight speed.

In any case, nearly every single enemy has ranged attacks even if they do get to a hard to reach place in levels 1-4.

Lastly, they bring nothing to the table for anything outside of combat. No telepathy, no skill bonuses, no re-rolls, no spells, no extra feat, no extra skills.

Edit: I completely forgot about partner bond, which does provide telepathy, so that is one useful feature outside of combat. That is also one of the nicer combat perks, but also helps another character on the team as well, sharing the initiative advantage. Still mostly combat focused though, as the telepathy is only with somebody on your team.

Sure, if you're maximizing your melee capability, they're fine, but I'd argue Vesk are probably equivalent in terms of overall combat builds. Perhaps people are confusing the effectiveness of melee in combat with Dragonkin racials?

Has anyone seen a Dragonkin completely wreck a campaign, where a melee Vesk Soldier wouldn't?


Hiruma,

You make assumptions from a place of comparing one to one abilities with things in the book. Try instead to compare them to resource costs.

What does a non-dragonkin player require to attain to flight like a dragonkin player? And what is the cost?

Now, do the same thing for all of the additional abilities that are granted to a dragon-kin innately and you will begin to see that it's not about finding things in the game that can replicate what a dragonkin does, but the costs associated with that replication.

You are basically giving a dragonkin player armor upgrade slots, magical items (remember that the rules are clear that players are only allowed 2, among other things, that normal classes must spend resources to acquire and maintain.

When you think of the game, especially from a GM and balance perspective, think of the resource costs that players incur.

How would a normal player gain fire immunity, sleep immunity, and paralysis immunity? What do they need to give up? How many armor slots or magic slots? Players can only wear 2 magic items, so what would it cost in terms of magic items for a player to replicate the partner bond?

Lastly, ask yourself, is it fair to other players who stick to the normal classes, to allow a race that is clearly more powerful than their classes and impose no penalties or grant no additional concessions to those players?

Yes you CAN replicate the abilities that a Dragonkin possesses, but there is ALWAYS a cost associated. Normal players MUST give up something to gain what they get as part of their normal racial abilities.

And if you want to argue the merits of normal racial abilities remember that every race gets something special that the other races do not. Vesk lean towards the combat classes, but give up racial abilities that say, a Lashunta gets for diplomacy and roleplaying.

Lastly, I play a melee Vesk soldier and they are NOT the equivalent of a dragonkin. Not at ALL. In order to gain reach, I have to choose a reach weapon. Almost all reach weapons I have found are 2 handed weapons which means that I have to give up something to gain the same as a Dragonkin. In order to gain flight, I have to give up an armor slot. In order to gain a breath weapon, I have to purchase (again more resources gone) an equivalent and it doesn't upgrade with my levels. We just hit level 10 and I can tell you that by this level, soldiers are much less powerful than their other class counterparts. Soldiers only do ONE thing well, and outside of combat they are almost useless compared to other classes. Having played one for 10 levels, I can tell you that Secondary Styles are a joke, KAC and EAC are particularly a bad idea since EAC is almost universally lower than KAC and you want to hit as often as possible so always choose a weapon that is energy based. KAC is almost always 1 or 2 points higher than EAC and that equates to a 5-10% difference in hitting or missing. Combat manuevers are less and less useful as the game is progressing. Yeap.. I can tell you that in ANY campaign that isn't combat heavy, a Vesk soldier is quite awful. My soldier can't disarm anything, make anything, hack anything, is uncultured, undiplomatic, etc.. Skill checks scale in this game based on reverse maximization and outside of swinging a weapon he's pretty much useless.

(What I mean in reverse maximization, is that Paizo calculated out the maximum that characters and players can achieve through classes, feats etc, and then reverse engineered their checks based on those numbers. Don't you find it odd that it is VERY VERY hard to find items that add additional bonuses to attack rolls, skill rolls, etc? Why is it that most of the items in the game replicate effects to a lesser degree, or modify things instead of increasing a players capabilities in specific areas? There's a reason for that. Paizo most likely decided that the 50/50 rule was fun - this rule basically says that checks at any level should succeed or fail half the time - and so they have engineered it so that unless you are maximizing your class in a specific arena then you will fail more than you succeed. You can see this most in the alien archive for saving throws. Look at the Dragonkin template. How often will he save vs Fort, Reflex, and Will(+14, +12, +10)? More than half the time forcing spellcasters to choose spells that have some element of success even though when opponents save.)


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Just to keep this somewhat relevant to the thread, a really important thing I want to point out:

Dragonkin do not get anything in the monster entry. They only get whats listed in the blue box labeled Racial traits on page 41.

Your statement:

Magyar5 wrote:
How would a normal player gain fire immunity, sleep immunity, and paralysis immunity?

makes me think you're confusing the monster stats on page 40 with the player option on page 41, given player dragonkin don't get fire immunity or paralysis immunity.

With that in mind, I'll continue.

Magyar5 wrote:
What does a non-dragonkin player require to attain to flight like a dragonkin player? And what is the cost?

On the low to mid level end of things:

1) 5th level, Armor slot and 3,100 credits (jetpack)
2) 7th level, Arm augment slot, 6,400 credits (Ultralight wings)
3) 8th level, Feet augmentation, 10,700 credits (force soles)

I'll point out Androids do get an extra armor upgrade slot, which could be used for a jetpack, or switched out when flight is not needed. Dragonkin can't swap their flight out for something else.

Dragonkin are missing out on +1 AC that Vesk get, which can be the equivalent of 300,000 credits at level 20. Or even 8,000 credits at level 10 (i.e. buying level 11 armor instead of level 10).

Or they're missing out on the Blindsight of Shirren, worth 4,450 credits at level 6 and using up your Ear upgrade slot. Admittedly the upgrade is blindsight (sound) not (vibration) but close enough.

If we're going by credits and slots for comparison, Kasatha win out with 2 extra arms valued at 70,150 credits and the spinal column slot.

By mid-game, those costs for flight are not a great burden, when a piece of armor or weapon can set you back 20,000 or more.

And by 9th level, Forcepacks are available for 13,100 credits, which provide 60 foot flight speed. So at mid to high levels, the Dragonkin either pays the same costs, or else is moving at half the flight speed everyone else is.

Magyar5 wrote:
Now, do the same thing for all of the additional abilities that are granted to a dragon-kin innately and you will begin to see that it's not about finding things in the game that can replicate what a dragonkin does, but the costs associated with that replication.

But the Dragonkin is equivalently missing out on other stuff. And while the stuff they get is cute and flavorful, its mostly situational combat benefits, or not even all that strong.

1) Large and Reach. Here Reach is has general application. Although its not nearly as valuable as in Pathfinder given the maximum of 1 reaction per turn. It terms of equipment, its generally a few points less damage compared to an equivalent non-reach weapon.

I will point out the Icestar staff from the Armory is *amazing*, providing reach, double (cold and fire damage), and block. Combined with the multifighting feat, it reduces full attack penalties by 1, and gives a +1 enhancement bonus to your AC against targets you hit via block. All on top of reach. I highly recommend the level 11 version with 4d6 damage.

There are also other energy reach weapons in that book as well.

On the other hand, Dragonkin are large, which helps to balance it, alot. First, its harder to get around the battle field. Diagonals are much more likely to be blocked by unfortunate obstacles or creatures. In some cases you may have to squeeze to reach enemies. Secondly, most equipment you find won't be sized to a large creature, which means taking a -4 penalty to-hit on most scavenged gear. If your GM's generous, they might let you use the armor resizing rules on weapons.

Mostly I consider reach and large as a zero sum racial trait. Reach is nice, but large isn't. And if you were going to wear large (or larger) power armor anyways, it eventually becomes a wasted racial trait.

2) Breath weapon. Its 1d6 at levels 1 to 2, then 1d6 + 1.5xlevel after. Once per 10 minute rest. Its a cute trick that by the mid-to-late levels is pointless to use, as you do more damage with other standard actions. At level 20, it does 1d6+30 (33.5 avg) damage. The level 10 gland in comparison does 9d6 (31.5 avg) from levels 10-20. Or the level 16 gland, which does 18d6 (63 avg).

At levels 1-2, any Soldier, Envoy, or Mechanic can do the same with a frag grenade for 35 credits, likely with a higher save DC since grenades key off Dex, not Con, so its not even that good as an early game boost.

At higher levels, it just falls behind simply full attacking by a Soldier or Solarian unless you can get 4 or more enemies in the AoE.

Basically I'm trying to say I wouldn't bother trying to replicate the Dragonkin's breath weapon since its not worth all that much. It might be the right choice to use it when all your equipment has been stolen. Or in the when there's a lot (i.e. 4 or more) bunched up, but its not going to be changing the outcome of battles.

Its like a Lashunta's innate spells. Cute, flavorful, one in a great while handy, but not game changing in any way.

3) Sleep immunity is a very narrow immunity, and is only going to come up rarely. The +2 saving throw to paralysis is against a similarly uncommon condition (although more dangerous). Compare to the Androids +2 saving throw to disease, poison, and mind-affecting (3 broad categories). Or even the Vesk's +2 to fear (which seems to be more common than paralysis).

Again, I don't see every character rushing to get sleep immunity, so I don't see it as all that critical.

4) Low-light and Darkvision have rarely come up in games I've played (given lights are basically built into your armor) or are dirt cheap (100 credits for armor, or 1,750 for darkvision capacitor eye cybertech) if you really care. Also most races get one or the other as well.

Its convenient but again, not all that strong.

5) Flight. As noted above, about 3,100 credits with an armor slot, or 10,700 credits with a foot slot. Compared to the value of +1 AC, 2 extra arms, or blindsense, this is well within racial variance.

6) Partner bond: 100 foot telepathy with 1 permanent ally, and share initiative rolls with them when within 30 feet. Its typically the equivalent of roll twice, take the better on initiative, which is quite good. Mean jumps from 10.5 to 13.825, so equivalent to about a feat in terms of initiative, if you're close enough to your ally.

The 100 foot telepathy in principle has some application outside of combat, but the inability to use it with any other character other than the partner limits that application. Again, a cute trick, but certainly not going to imbalance a campaign.

Magyar5 wrote:

When you think of the game, especially from a GM and balance perspective, think of the resource costs that players incur.

What do they need to give up? How many armor slots or magic slots? Players can only wear 2 magic items, so what would it cost in terms of magic items for a player to replicate the partner bond?

Lets look at level 5 and compare to an Android. You'd need 3,100 for a jet pack, but can use their internal armor slot. A Wyrmling dragon gland in the throat slot for 750 credits [3d6 (10.5 avg) vs 1d6+7 (10.5 avg)], so about 3,850 credits total. A 3rd level disintegrator lash (1-handed reach) does 1d6 acid (which is a rare resistance) or maybe a 5th level 1d8 C Cryopike (2-handed reach). They need to use a feat on improved initiative to kinda match partner bond.

On the other hand, the Dragon-kin is maybe using a Plasma Doshko (6th level) for 1d10 E&F? So 1 more point average damage for some more credits? They also need to spend 4,000 credits for a Black Heart necrograft to get +2 to poisons, diseases, and mind-affecting effects to mimic the Android's +2 save bonuses.

Also, for a Soldier build, the Android can leave charisma at 8, and wind up with the same Str and Dex as the Dragonkin, while having a 12 Int - meaning more skills and bonuses for out of combat.

As they continue to level up, the Dragonkin needs to buy the force pack if he want to keep up with Android flight speed, which then costs him an armor augment slot, while the android can just swap the jet pack out for the forcepack.

Magyar5 wrote:
Lastly, ask yourself, is it fair to other players who stick to the normal classes, to allow a race that is clearly more powerful than their classes and impose no penalties or grant no additional concessions to those players?

How in the world is a Dragonkin's abilities more powerful than a class? I can only assume you're looking at the monster stats and not the racial traits block.

Magyar5 wrote:
And if you want to argue the merits of normal racial abilities remember that every race gets something special that the other races do not. Vesk lean towards the combat classes, but give up racial abilities that say, a Lashunta gets for diplomacy and roleplaying.

I agree. And well, a Dragonkin is just as combat focused as a Vesk. They basically don't get anything useful outside combat. Vesk get +1 AC, worth roughly 8,000 credits at level 10, perhaps 10-20,000 at level 11 or 12. So a Dragonkin gets 30 foot flight. I'd say the Vesk is way ahead in the mid to late levels.

Magyar5 wrote:
Soldiers only do ONE thing well, and outside of combat they are almost useless compared to other classes. Having played one for 10 levels, I can tell you that Secondary Styles are a joke, KAC and EAC are particularly a bad idea since EAC is almost universally lower than KAC and you want to hit as often as possible so always choose a weapon that is energy based. KAC is almost always 1 or 2 points higher than EAC and that equates to a 5-10% difference in hitting or missing. Combat manuevers are less and less useful as the game is progressing. Yeap.

None of which is racial. If you swap Dragonkin for Vesk, you would have exactly the same problems (except you're taking 5-10% more damage on average) in exchange for saving 3,100 credits and an armor slot.

Magyar5 wrote:
I can tell you that in ANY campaign that isn't combat heavy, a Vesk soldier is quite awful. My soldier can't disarm anything, make anything, hack anything, is uncultured, undiplomatic, etc.. Skill checks scale in this game based on reverse maximization and outside of swinging a weapon he's pretty much useless.

I don't see how this is relevant to the Dragonkin racial abilities breaking a campaign. A Dragonkin character doesn't let you disarm better, make anything, hack anything, is uncultured, undiplomatic, etc. A Dragonkin soldier built the same way would have identical problems, nor fundamentally change what you do in combat.

If anything, I think you're arguing melee combat builds (which with a +4 Strength/-2 Dex mod is the most logical build for it) are a poor build choice?


I'm not arguing melee combat builds vs anything. I was simply pointing it out as a comparison as you brought up the initial comparison to a Vesk melee soldier.

I can come up with examples that support what I've stated as easily as you have. I could pick Humans for a comparison or Vesk or Ysoki. However there's no point in doing so as cherry picking examples to support your view point isn't nearly as useful as having a discussion around the merits of what it brings to the game for the players and GM's.

As I have already stated, they get abilities that enhance them more than other races. Just because we can go to the book and say.. well.. flight costs X and you have to have X armor to install it in with so now it's the same isn't a good measuring stick.

Instead, ask yourself, do the other races compare and in what ways do they exceed Dragonkin and in what ways do they fall short?

Androids are probably the closest in comparison as they have Exceptional Vision and the constructed trait, but you failed to mention that there is a pretty sever penalty associated with the Constructed trait. Androids count as humanoids AND construct and can be effected in that manner and MUST take the worst of the 2 when determining if a creature is targeted by a type. Also that upgrade slot you mentioned.. confined to upgrades that can be installed on light armor only. It almost seems that for every 'bonus' they have, there is a downside as well. I don't recall seeing this same set of downsides in the stat block for Dragonkin. But.. that's just Androids.. lets move on to say.. Humans

Humans. One feat and One skill. And +2 to one ability. Clearly they are on par with Dragonkin.

Kasathas. Well Desert Stride is situationally useful as opposed to just being able to fly. Once these guys get their jet packs this becomes useless to them. Having four arms... kinda useful, though again... nothing really useful here other than holding additional ammo or weapons they can use. And +2 on Culture, Acrobatics, and Athletic checks. Situational as well. However they have no real down side to the race, but not much of an upside either.

Lashunta. Lashunta Magic is useful up until lvl 4. Then daze isn't too useful after that. Detect thoughts is pretty handy and can be used in a variety of situations. Although once a day isn't too great and the fact that many things will block it. Still, so far it's the best racial trait we've come across and has no penalty. Lastly, +2 to 2 skills. Decent.

Shirran. Blindsense is, again, situationally useful. Hopefully u come up against some invisible or camouflaged enemies and they can use it. Communalism. NOW we are talking. This is dead useful, but the constraint of proximity is burdensome. Telepathy is kinda pointless. It's decent if you can't speak normally or want to convey something to a person without anyone over hearing.

Etc.. etc.. I think you get my point. We can do a side by side comparison of all the races if you would like, but that's not very helpful. Unless we are talking about cheek pouches.. now that is a racial ability NOBODY can argue isn't just incredible! Stuffing crap in your cheeks and puking it out later is just TIP TOP.

My point is, that GM's and players need to be careful. Dragonkin ARE more powerful. Their abilities don't fall off in usefulness like so many other racial abilities. Reach never goes out of style, has no real penalties, and isn't just useful in combat though in the context of the game, that's where you will use it most often. Flight is just.. always useful. Breath weapon that scales as the players level goes up is also useful and never really falls out of style. It's a standard action which is pretty solid. You can call it situational, but it costs NOTHING to have it and it's ALWAYS available. It's a free grenade.. or a free blast.. it has no downsides and it scales. Hell you can even put another item in the throat slot and still use the breath weapon. Lastly, partner bond is just great. It does have a downside in that it's only usable with a non-dragonkin partner and that partner has to die for the Dragonkin to be released from it. But it's basically advantage (to coin a 5E term) on initiative rolls and telepathic communication for 100 feet. That's pretty useful.

I maintain that no other races come close to these abilities either in the short or long term of the game and in allowing a dragonkin as a playable character the GM and the players should be aware of what they are getting themselves in to.

Will other players feel as strong? If the Dragonkin chooses another player at the table for his bonded partner, how will other players feel that EVERY initiative roll these 2 make is now done with advantage? We aren't talking a once per day ability. This is EVERY single encounter.. period.. not to mention the powerful advantage they can have when their initiatives are ALWAYS back to back. This is a VERY powerful advantage in combat.

If I were a GM, there would have to be a compelling reason to allow it and on top of that, I would grant my other players some additional 'racial' themed bonuses that perhaps compensated for the difference.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Dragonkin are strong. They are not overpowered.

I don't think you get any of your natural movement modes in powered armor.

Dragonkin can wear medium powered armor tailored to them. This does not make the dragonkin medium, nor does it cost extra.

I'd allow a medium dragonkin without reach in a heartbeat, and half suspect that was intended by the developers.


Ravingdork wrote:

Dragonkin are strong. They are not overpowered.

I don't think you get any of your natural movement modes in powered armor.

Dragonkin can wear medium powered armor tailored to them. This does not make the dragonkin medium, nor does it cost extra.

I'd allow a medium dragonkin without reach in a heartbeat, and half suspect that was intended by the developers.

Isn't a medium Dragonkin the same thing as a Vesk? hehe...

IN our campaign, my Vesk attains to becoming a Dragonkin. We lost a few players and our GM has created a narrative that put us on Triaxis helping the Dragonkin against the Corpsefleet. We were able to pick up the Dragonblood theme as part of the role playing there.

Brosni (my vesk) has decided he want's to emulate the noble Dragonkin so he's gonna get a suit of power armor and toss a flame thrower on it and a grenade launcher so he can "pretend" to breath fire and shoot spells (using hybrid grenades). Our technomancer is down with the idea and we are going to modify the suit to look more and more like a Dragon.

We did recruit a Dragonkin captain to replace out lost Captain due to life pulling him away till after the holidays, but, the NPC is strictly played by the GM.


Wow, this thread exploded. Sorry for posting and ghosting, but I had some serious computer issues. Thanks for all the responses!

I agree with the general consensus that flying in power armor seems to go against RAI. I could skirt around it by giving the cute answer that he can fly, but count the armor's bulk against his limit, but at that point I might as well just tell him he can't fly in it.

Magyar, thanks for the heads up on the rules for Riding. You were 100% correct that neither player found the rules to be to their taste. The other player did choose to play an Ysoki, so I've told them that riding outside of combat is perfectly fine, but that it's just too clunky for combat use. They accepted that ruling with minimal grumbling.

So that's two problems out of the way. I'm still up in the air on the other two, and now I have to take Magyar's point about the race as a whole into account. I'm still pretty new to the rules system, but I have a lot of experience in earlier d20 products, so I'll throw my thoughts out here and see what people think.

As far as the race as a whole goes, I agree with Hiruma and Ravingdork. Even looking at it through the lens of resource management, I think it's close enough to count as a wash. The flight is the equivalent of jump boots or (at level 5) a jetpack. This is quite strong for the first few levels, but as has been stated above, doesn't translate well to mid- or high-level play. The breath weapon scales even more poorly. Compare that to things like the extra upgrade slot of the Androids, the free +1 bulk for Ysoki, or even the Human's bonus feat, which are all quite literally invaluable.

Vision upgrades are trivial, and having flipped through the monster entries, I don't think that the immunity to sleep or bonus vs. paralysis counts as being much more than fluff.

The real sticking points I'm finding that separates the race from many others, are the Partner Bond and the size/reach. Partner Bond seems to me to be the biggest mechanical advantage. I'm not worried about the telepathy, as it only functions with one other character, so I view it as mostly just flavor. The second half, functionally granting advantage on initiative checks to half the party, seems like a much bigger deal. I've thought about it, but ultimately I decided that I think it's okay for a few reasons. First and foremost, the RP opportunities provided by the bond are awesome. I always like having PCs with a reason to stick together, and I've never had a bad experience with characters with shared backgrounds. Second, it's paired with a pretty rough ability penalty. The penalty to Dex on a race that's geared primarily towards combat seems to me like it counts as a racial drawback all on its own, and means that most likely the ability just means that the Dragonkin gets to go on it's partner's turn, since his initiative will almost certainly be lower.

That brings us to the giant dragon in the room: the space and reach. My opinion is probably colored by my days gaming in the 90s (dating myself here), but 10' reach in a system without LAs? I can't make myself not see that as nuts. Fortunately, it wasn't an issue. The player changed his mind from Armor Storm to Sharpshoot, so he wasn't attached to the reach. I agree with Ravingdork that it seems like the designers intended to at least have the option for a medium Dragonkin, so that's what we're going with.

Now that he's playing a Sharpshooter, the rules for Power Armor sizing aren't pressing, but I am still curious. Ravingdork, was your comment about resizing just interpreting RAI, or did you find something from the developers?

So what do people think? Did I miss the mark anywhere? The game doesn't start for another month-ish, so if I'm way off on something, I have plenty of time to adjust things.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Reach isn't nearly so powerful in Starfinder as in Pathfinder, since you can only ever have one attack of opportunity, and it uses up your one reaction per round, which means you can't use that action for anything else that round (such as feather fall or use the Bodyguard feat).

There's also no way, currently, to get more than one attack of opportunity in a round in Starfinder.


Ravingdork wrote:

Reach isn't nearly so powerful in Starfinder as in Pathfinder, since you can only ever have one attack of opportunity, and it uses up your one reaction per round, which means you can't use that action for anything else that round (such as feather fall or use the Bodyguard feat).

There's also no way, currently, to get more than one attack of opportunity in a round in Starfinder.

Combat Reflexes didn't survive the jump to space? That's too bad. I definitely understand the reasoning, but I always thought the AoO master was a neat build.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

One of the players in a Dead Suns game I'm in is a dragonkin using a reach weapon, so he definitely does have spatial control of the battlefield. On the other hand, he also has occasional squeezing issues and, because he's the most obviously fearsome foe and the biggest target, enemies tend to concentrate their attacks on him. (he's actually a melee Mystic, so isn't as tough as he first appears)

My evaluation is that dragon-kin is OP compared to most other races in the game, but it's not so bad that it's going to be game-breaking.


From the archives of nethys:

Armor Size
Armor comes in different sizes for different creatures, and you might have to adjust a suit of armor to fit you if it wasn’t made for your race. A ysoki can’t effectively wear armor made for a human, and a kasatha needs to adjust armor that was made for a two-armed creature. If it’s in doubt whether a creature can fit the suit, the GM decides whether the armor needs to be adjusted. When you buy armor new, the purchase price includes any adjustments.

Adjusting Armor
If you get secondhand armor that wasn’t tailored for you, you can have it adjusted, which requires a successful Engineering check (DC = 10 + 2 × the armor’s level). Alternatively, you can spend 10% of the armor’s purchase price to have it adjusted by a professional—typically an armorsmith or anyone with multiple ranks in Engineering.


Enjolly wrote:

Wow, this thread exploded. Sorry for posting and ghosting, but I had some serious computer issues. Thanks for all the responses!

I agree with the general consensus that flying in power armor seems to go against RAI. I could skirt around it by giving the cute answer that he can fly, but count the armor's bulk against his limit, but at that point I might as well just tell him he can't fly in it.

Magyar, thanks for the heads up on the rules for Riding. You were 100% correct that neither player found the rules to be to their taste. The other player did choose to play an Ysoki, so I've told them that riding outside of combat is perfectly fine, but that it's just too clunky for combat use. They accepted that ruling with minimal grumbling.

So that's two problems out of the way. I'm still up in the air on the other two, and now I have to take Magyar's point about the race as a whole into account. I'm still pretty new to the rules system, but I have a lot of experience in earlier d20 products, so I'll throw my thoughts out here and see what people think.

As far as the race as a whole goes, I agree with Hiruma and Ravingdork. Even looking at it through the lens of resource management, I think it's close enough to count as a wash. The flight is the equivalent of jump boots or (at level 5) a jetpack. This is quite strong for the first few levels, but as has been stated above, doesn't translate well to mid- or high-level play. The breath weapon scales even more poorly. Compare that to things like the extra upgrade slot of the Androids, the free +1 bulk for Ysoki, or even the Human's bonus feat, which are all quite literally invaluable.

Vision upgrades are trivial, and having flipped through the monster entries, I don't think that the immunity to sleep or bonus vs. paralysis counts as being much more than fluff.

The real sticking points I'm finding that separates the race from many others, are the Partner Bond and the size/reach. Partner Bond seems to me to be the biggest mechanical...

This is an excellent response Enjolly. I'm glad you are considering the implications of allowing the race into the game and the adjustments you will need to make.

My point about the abilities, regarding flight and the breath weapon, is that they are very strong abilities with no drawbacks. They could be compared to jet packs or other devices, but not fully. Those items cost an armor slot, have power consumption needs, and have duration limitations. After level 5, your dragonkin can fly indefinitely. Further, and you can mark my word this will come up, the Ysoki will want to ride him all the time thus giving 2 players indefinite flight. If you think about it contextually this makes it so that every encounter or scenario you give your players and want to force them to deal with, then you will need to counter this flying ability. Otherwise, half the party can bypass the encounter or gain a strong tactical advantage. If your other players wish to keep up they have to buy a lot of batteries for the jet pack etc... The breath weapon doesn't pose as strong a problem as it's far more limiting in its design. It's a breath attack. That's it, but it could be used to light flammable things. Like say... ur Ysoki casts grease or throws an oil grenade or some equivalent and then ur dragonkin sets the area ablaze with his breath weapon. However that's usually limited to combat. The point is, that this breath weapon costs no credits, no armor slots, no biological slots, and is usable quite often. Just rest after every encounter and you are good.

My suggestion is that if you allow this then you at least consider something equivalent for your other players. Perhaps if one of them plays a mechanic you could say that his family where well known demolitionists and you get the Grenade Expert from the Bombard fighting style... something like that. Something that scales with the player. That way, each player can feel they are on par with the dragonkin.

This will of course throw the balance of your game off and challenge you as a GM. I can assume however from your post and thoughtful response that this will not likely be too difficult a problem for you.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Flying isn't all it's made out to be, especially if you're large. It tends to leave you exposed to ranged volleys, and to falling damage once you get shot down. Going high enough that the enemy can't effectively touch you with ranges attacks generally means you're not around to assist the party (or they you) in other ways. If the enemy went indoors or something, you'd be screwed for the several rounds or minutes it would take you to land and rejoin the action.

The breath weapon as written is a joke.

A ysoki can ride a flying human if he wanted, so I fail to see how a dragonkin suddenly breaks it, especially when one considers that flying isn't always the best option.


Ravingdork wrote:

Flying isn't all it's made out to be, especially if you're large. It tends to leave you exposed to ranged volleys, and to falling damage once you get shot down. Going high enough that the enemy can't effectively touch you with ranges attacks generally means you're not around to assist the party (or they you) in other ways. If the enemy went indoors or something, you'd be screwed for the several rounds or minutes it would take you to land and rejoin the action.

The breath weapon as written is a joke.

A ysoki can ride a flying human if he wanted, so I fail to see how a dragonkin suddenly breaks it, especially when one considers that flying isn't always the best option.

Allow me to elaborate.

There are a 2 ways to approach the problem of unrestricted flight. Within combat and outside combat. Let's start with the easier one. Within combat.

Within this thread it has been repeatedly pointed out that there are items which grant flight in combat and that's not in dispute. However there are some important things to keep in mind when attempting to make these comparisons. They are not equivalent. The dragonkin flight ability is innate. It does not require armor to be used. Do you sleep in your armor? Are all of your combat encounters when you are awake, geared up, and ready for them? If you are captured, are you allowed to keep your armor? Dragonkin flight also has no action costs. Many of the items which grant flight have an activation cost or an action cost to change flight modes. Finally, there are round limits for these items based on their usage. A Jetpack only functions for 20 rounds or 20 minutes of cruising time. This does not hold true for a dragonkin. Lastly, all of these items require an armor slot and have an item level before they can be attained. While it's true that items can offer similar or better options for flight it comes at a cost to every other race. This is the point. That this is an innate ability. Flight bypasses difficult terrain, negates melee attackers, and places you out of the range of touch spells which are usually more powerful than their ranged counterparts.

Outside combat is a lot harder to quantify. All of the same things from combat applies, but now we get in to the difficulties this brings to GMs. Flight removes a lot of creative role-playing from the game. Need to climb a tree and look around? No problem. Fly up. No resources expended (not even a charge of battery). Sleeping outdoors? No worries. Fly your allies up one by one to a safe ledge or tree branch they couldn't previously reach. Likely ambush spot? Skirt it with flight or scout it from relative safety. Carefully crafted encounters can be negated or made easier through this innate ability. Further, if you are a GM who has a script planned for your players, having them expend x resources before y encounter so that the encounter is meaningful and not trivialized, this becomes problematic. Remember for every hour you are at the table, your GM spends 2-5 hours in preparation. No GM enjoys seeing his hard work trivialized or bypassed or worse of all, requiring ad hoc creation content on the fly because your players just go way off the line they are on. A good GM crafts a narrative with his players and outside of combat is where this narrative really shines.

I am not claiming that GMs can't handle the additional difficulties, but your GM is gonna take note when u start buying null-space chambers and air tanks.


My group briefly had a player with a dragonkin exocortex mechanic and it didn't really seem to cause any issues for game balance. The lashunta solarian in our party has been a much bigger issue as he deals obscene amounts of damage and is pretty tankt (he laughed at multiple waves of formian drones trying to kamikaze him with grenades as his DR made it impossible for them to hurt him, and he consistently halves the HP of enemies in one hit). Meanwhile, the best the dragonkin character was able to do to try to mess up encounter balance was to do some light aerial recon


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I myself have done some aerial recon with my strix character. That seems to be the worst of it balancewise. I really do think Magyar5 is overstating matters somewhat.

Though what you're saying is not without merrit, Magyar5, I just don't think it causes balance problems or group strife on the level that you seem to be implying.


Yeah, we also have a dragonkin. Yes, he plays the melee fighter and the target practice much better than the other characters, but it doesn't draw away from what the others do. The dragonkin IS better suited to those roles, but so is a korasha lashunta suited to a melee solarian than a ysoki.


I come from about 25 yrs of RPG experience so I've seen characters and GMs open Pandoras box many times with items and races and cross class fusion and creative players make their lives hell for it. Many players don't really perceive the power of these benefits and thus don't push them to their creative boundaries, but once in a while you find a player who sees those combination possibilities and pushes them to the extreme.

I shudder to think what a Dexterity based, lvl 10 dragonkin could do as a mechanic with a coilgun sniper rifle and a stealth bot feeding him information. He can hover safely at night while using his little friend to infiltrate and gather data. Or when combat breaks out. Move out of range and just sniper his enemies. And if they all take cover indoors.. lock them in with ur drone and burn the building down around them.

It's not gonna be game breaking, but a smartly played Dragonkin can become very rough to deal with.

As a side note, I just got AA2 and am looking through it. Haven't gotten through it all yet but struggling to find a race that compares. Maybe my GM will let me play one. I've got some good ideas on how to build him.

Anyone else got some good ideas on how to abuse innate flight or partner bond? You could always get null chambers for ur party, some air tanks, and have ur dragonkin fly to wherever he needs to go with everyone tucked safely inside.
Give him grenades and let him do battlefield bomb tactics. A lvl 11 soldier tossing grenades at 3 per round and never missing a A.C. of 5 would be a ton of damage. Exp3nsive of course but... when ur tossing 3 frag grenades at 6d6 damage a toss... that's some mean damage.


I've got about 22 years, myself. Most of it in 3.5, which is probably the most malleable and abusable system ever created. (Which, in my munchkin years, I devoted a lot of time to breaking.) I don't have a solid grasp on the number balance of Starfinder yet (ac/hp/attack/damage), so I can't just immediately spot broken combos that make you untouchable or push your DPR through the roof, but I am pretty good at spotting synergy.

I'm an architect GM, so I spend -hours- planning every session. Have my players ever out-thought me? God yes. But when you have your players' sheets right in front of you and spend 1.5 hours designing a single encounter, it's pretty easy to cover most of the variables. So I'm not really worried that I'll miss some crucial interaction that ruins the game.

And, as for your theoretical Dragonkin sniper, here's a few thoughts. Dragonkin only have Average flight, which requires an Acrobatics check every round to allow hovering, and 1s exist. Dragonkin Darkvision has a range limit, like every other race. I don't remember if it's 30' or 60', but it's certainly not 250', so nighttime sniping requires some magical or technological assistance. And I'm still not seeing any combination there that's really dependent on the Dragonkin. Any race can play a mechanic with a sniper rifle. Yeah, most other races would need to pay for a jetpack, but that cost is balanced out by the Dragonkin needing to buy a better Dex implant to counter the racial penalty. And anyone can buy a chain and a torch.

And if the Dragonkin does decide to spend every fight flying 100' in the air with a sniper rifle, you can bet your ass that the enemies are going to "randomly" target his little rat buddy much, much more often. Roleplay can be a good carrot or a good stick, even in the middle of combat.

I'm not saying your analysis is wrong by any means, and I'm not saying that the Dragonkin isn't looking like a Tier 1 race, but I will say that I think you're putting a little too much stock in innate flight.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's also worth remembering that this is scifi, not fantasy. If a flying sniper is taking you and your men out, there are likely plenty of vehicles nearby which can be used to provide cover or to take him out.

Or hell, hide behind cover and call for reinforcements.


And that anyone and everyone can be the flying sniper. It's just the dragonkin can do it all day.

Of note:

pg. 135 CRB wrote:

Safe flight typically requires momentum. If you wish to

stay in place, or hover, while flying, you must attempt an
Acrobatics check as a move action. If you fail, you fall. If you
have clumsy maneuverability, you cannot hover at all. If you
have perfect maneuverability, you can hover automatically
without attempting a check, though you can hover as a
swift action instead of a move action if you succeed at an
Acrobatics check (there is no penalty for failure).

Hovering requires a move action unless you have perfect maneuverability. No sniping from jetpacks or even force packs. You can use other long range weapons of course, but so can your enemies.

A better choice is to buy a hovercar and snipe from that stable platform.


I've also bought the AA2, and there's a race that beats the Dragonkin, easily. Orc is the new god race. Hate having an odd ability score? Never suffer from that problem again!


Garretmander wrote:
Hovering requires a move action...

I didn't even realize this. That's a strong mark against the idea that Dragonkin flight is overpowered.


Enjolly wrote:
I've also bought the AA2, and there's a race that beats the Dragonkin, easily. Orc is the new god race. Hate having an odd ability score? Never suffer from that problem again!

There's already a post by the developers stating that will be done away with in the next FAQ.


Also, I think the Trox gives Dragonkin a run for their money. Forty foot move speed, 10' reach, 8 racial HP (Which I don't think is OP, but I haven't seen that before. Does any other race have more than 6?), Bulwark/Frenzy/Chitin/Grappler which add up to a good bit of combat utility, and a burrow speed. The burrow speed, while not quite as useful as flight, seems like it could cause the same amount of trouble out of combat.

"Oh, those are some mighty fine walls you have there. Be a shame if someone...dug under them." *sunglasses*

Honestly, I think they might even be better. Imagine a Trox Blitz soldier with a reach weapon, or a dedicated grappler. Side note: Is grappling still as good in Starfinder as it used to be in 3.5?


Garretmander wrote:
Enjolly wrote:
I've also bought the AA2, and there's a race that beats the Dragonkin, easily. Orc is the new god race. Hate having an odd ability score? Never suffer from that problem again!
There's already a post by the developers stating that will be done away with in the next FAQ.

That's probably for the best. I retract my statement of Orc being better, but I stand by the Trox.


Enjolly wrote:

Also, I think the Trox gives Dragonkin a run for their money. Forty foot move speed, 10' reach, 8 racial HP (Which I don't think is OP, but I haven't seen that before. Does any other race have more than 6?), Bulwark/Frenzy/Chitin/Grappler which add up to a good bit of combat utility, and a burrow speed. The burrow speed, while not quite as useful as flight, seems like it could cause the same amount of trouble out of combat.

"Oh, those are some mighty fine walls you have there. Be a shame if someone...dug under them." *sunglasses*

Honestly, I think they might even be better. Imagine a Trox Blitz soldier with a reach weapon, or a dedicated grappler. Side note: Is grappling still as good in Starfinder as it used to be in 3.5?

It's KAC +8, so with the improved feat, frenzy and grappler, the trox brings grappling back down to just hitting KAC normally. grappling and pinning is definitely a good condition to let the rest of the party pour on the fire. I don't remember the full utility in 3.5, so I can't tell you that.

And burrow is a great way to get total cover and retreat when your blitz soldier bites off more than they can chew. Depending on terrain.

Yeah, that trox is pretty damn good. Not sure I'd allow that in a game.


As noted above, even with perfect maneuverability, hover takes a swift. So it requires haste to be able to full attack while flying, no matter what. In typical low to mid level combat, attackers on the ground, climbing, or swimming have the advantage over flyers in terms of damage output because they can full attack.

I'd also like to make a note about the triple grenade throw with a high level Soldier. Remember all penalties to your attack roll apply to the save DC of the grenade, which at a minimum means -6 to your Save DC. Which will typically move it from like 55% chance to save to 85% chance to save. Range penalties also stack with that -6 penalty. Essentially enemies might be failing only on a 1 against those grenades, reducing the damage output significantly.

Personally, at low levels I like climbing suckers (certainly I've been using them since level 2 in SFS) for mobility, since it doesn't require a hover action, and you can ascend at full speed instead of half. Also medium sized with a reach weapon on starships with standard 15 foot tall ceiling is just the right combination. At high levels, force soles mk2 are even better.

For a flying sniper in the level 10-ish range, an Operative with Improved Quick Movement, Fleet feat, Jet Dash feat, Standard Speed Suspension, and Force Soles Mk 2 works well. Treat the air as the ground. Base land speed is 120 feet, so running in the air is 720 feet per round horizontally. Snipe and run on alternating rounds. Or when you need to escape, just run combined with Cloaking Field. Even better when combined with a race with an increased land speed.


Hiruma Kai wrote:

As noted above, even with perfect maneuverability, hover takes a swift. So it requires haste to be able to full attack while flying, no matter what. In typical low to mid level combat, attackers on the ground, climbing, or swimming have the advantage over flyers in terms of damage output because they can full attack.

I'd also like to make a note about the triple grenade throw with a high level Soldier. Remember all penalties to your attack roll apply to the save DC of the grenade, which at a minimum means -6 to your Save DC. Which will typically move it from like 55% chance to save to 85% chance to save. Range penalties also stack with that -6 penalty. Essentially enemies might be failing only on a 1 against those grenades, reducing the damage output significantly.

Thanks for this. One of the dangers of going from earlier d20 systems to Starfinder is that I frequently skim things I think I already know and miss the minutia. I had no idea that you couldn't take a full action and a swift action in the same round, and had also missed the rule about grenade save DCs. I guess I'll have to go through the book with a fine toothed comb if I want to avoid screwing anything up...


One thing I missed at first. No -4 for shooting into melee, just cover. Unless it moved locations of course.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

You'll definitely also want to go over Attacks of Opportunity and Readied Actions, then. Because they do not work the same as previous D20 experience would have you think.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Somebody got +8 hp? Wow. Talk about power creep. :P


Garretmander wrote:
One thing I missed at first. No -4 for shooting into melee, just cover. Unless it moved locations of course.

That one I already knew. Good riddance, imho. Better codifying the rules for Soft Cover is a welcome replacement.

HammerJack wrote:
You'll definitely also want to go over Attacks of Opportunity and Readied Actions, then. Because they do not work the same as previous D20 experience would have you think.

Thanks for that. I'll definitely reread those.

Ravingdork wrote:
Somebody got +8 hp? Wow. Talk about power creep. :P

Hey, you -know- there's some munchkin somewhere scrolling through excel files looking for that one race with more than 6 HP...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really thought 6 was a hard cap for the really tough races.


Ravingdork wrote:
I really thought 6 was a hard cap for the really tough races.

Admittedly, I haven't seen every race, but I was under the same impression. But this guy is apparently Super Mega Tough. And Fast. And STRONK. And can come up from beneath you like a G+~!*&N SAND WORM AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!

Side note: How would an attack from underground even work? Burrowing says you can't see, so I would probably rule it as a blinded attack vs. a [whatever Starfinder calls Flatfooted, I can't remember] foe.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Enjolly wrote:
How would an attack from underground even work? Burrowing says you can't see, so I would probably rule it as a blinded attack vs. a [whatever Starfinder calls Flatfooted, I can't remember] foe.

Unless an ability says otherwise, I'd say the target has total cover until the burrower breached the surface. A burrower who has breached the surface but has not gained it's footing has improved cover, unless it is attacking, at which point it has normal cover. Until the breech, the burrower does not have line of sight or line of effect either.


Hiruma Kai wrote:

As noted above, even with perfect maneuverability, hover takes a swift. So it requires haste to be able to full attack while flying, no matter what. In typical low to mid level combat, attackers on the ground, climbing, or swimming have the advantage over flyers in terms of damage output because they can full attack.

I'd also like to make a note about the triple grenade throw with a high level Soldier. Remember all penalties to your attack roll apply to the save DC of the grenade, which at a minimum means -6 to your Save DC. Which will typically move it from like 55% chance to save to 85% chance to save. Range penalties also stack with that -6 penalty. Essentially enemies might be failing only on a 1 against those grenades, reducing the damage output significantly.

Personally, at low levels I like climbing suckers (certainly I've been using them since level 2 in SFS) for mobility, since it doesn't require a hover action, and you can ascend at full speed instead of half. Also medium sized with a reach weapon on starships with standard 15 foot tall ceiling is just the right combination. At high levels, force soles mk2 are even better.

For a flying sniper in the level 10-ish range, an Operative with Improved Quick Movement, Fleet feat, Jet Dash feat, Standard Speed Suspension, and Force Soles Mk 2 works well. Treat the air as the ground. Base land speed is 120 feet, so running in the air is 720 feet per round horizontally. Snipe and run on alternating rounds. Or when you need to escape, just run combined with Cloaking Field. Even better when combined with a race with an increased land speed.

Hiruma, where is the rules on the penalty affecting saving DC. I don't remember reading this. Please send me the page!


Weapon Special Property and Critical Hit DCs
Source Starfinder Core Rulebook pg. 181
Some weapons that explode or cause critical hit effects (see page 182) allow the target to attempt a saving throw. The DC of such a saving throw is typically equal to 10 + half the weapon’s item level + one of your ability modifiers. Unless stated otherwise, the ability modifier corresponds to the ability score you’d normally use to make an attack with that weapon (Dexterity for a ranged or thrown weapon, and Strength for a melee weapon). Any penalty you would normally take to your weapon attack roll also applies to this DC, including penalties from the weapon’s range increment.


It's also at the end of the paragraph about grenades on page 183 of the CRB.


ty

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