The Sorcerer: 4 Desiderata

[Porridge]

A number of people have raised reasonable concerns regarding the sorcerer: worries that they compare poorly to other classes with the same spell lists, worries that they have fewer class feats than most classes, worries that their class feats aren't a good fit for non-arcane spell lists, and so on. While I share many of these concerns, I want to raise a different concern.

Most spell-using characters in fantasy literature are not Vancian. They don't change what spells they can cast daily, they're not locked into casting a spell at only one particular level of strength, they don't lose the ability to cast a spell as soon as they've cast it, and so on.

The point of having a Sorcerer class, IMO, is to allow us to create non-Vancian magic-users along these lines. Thus two desiderata for the Sorcerer class are:

Desideratum 1. They have a general mastery of certain kinds of magic that doesn't change from day to day.

Desideratum 2. They have a general mastery of certain kinds of magic that allows them to produce stronger and weaker effects, as they desire.

Of course, we also want Sorcerers to be fun to play. And developer commentary (especially from Mark Seifter) has helpfully identified two further desiderata to ensure they're fun to play:

Desideratum 3. Their flexible choices regarding what spells to cast should be constructed in a way that helps curb decision paralysis.

Desideratum 4. Their flexible choices regarding what spells to cast should be constructed in a way that is balanced against Vancian casters (i.e., is not too poweful).

The PF1 Sorcerer satisfied desiderata 1,3 and 4.

The PF2 playtest Sorcerer satisfies desiderata 3 and 4. But it doesn't satisfy either of the desiderata that (IMO) motivate having a Sorcerer class in the first place -- namely, allowing you to create spell-using characters that better fit typical fantasy literature.

Here's an alternative that, I think, satisfies all four desiderata.

Allow Sorcerers to have the same number of spells known and spell slots as they currently do.

Replace the Spontaneous Hightening ability with the following: a Sorcerer can use 1 spell point to spontaneously heighten or decrease the spell level effect of any spell they know.

This would allow Sorcerers to satisfy desiderata 1 and 2 -- what spells they can cast doesn't vary from day to day, and if their mastery of a spell allows them to produce stronger and weaker versions as they like.

It would satisfy desiderata 3 -- avoiding decision paralysis -- since there would be a "default" spell level to cast their spells at, and the option of casting a weaker/stronger version of the spell would only come up in special circumstances.

It would satisfy desiderata 4, since this change would, if anything, decrease the power of the Sorcerer class. (That itself might be a concern -- and if so, they might be beefed up a little to compensate for this -- but this kind of spell-casting flexibility wouldn't by itself make them too powerful.)

__________

I'm curious as to what others think. Does something like this proposal strike you as an attractive option? Are there modifications or alterations to this proposal that you think might do a better job of satisfying these four desiderata?

[pixierose]

I could see this solution has potential. Would it be 1 spell point, and they can scale it to any level they can cast?

[Porridge]

pixierose wrote:

I could see this solution has potential. Would it be 1 spell point, and they can scale it to any level they can cast?

Yeah, that was the thought. 1 spell point to scale it the any level you can cast, up or down.

[Mark Seifter]

Noted, will consider implications later when I have more time to ponder on it.

[Kalvit]

If Spell Points as a resource to heighten or otherwise adjust spells were to be implemented, then the consequences must also be considered. How does this affect bloodline powers? Other than losing valuable points that could fuel those abilities, could this feature impact Sorcerers play experience in a way that makes any bloodline power completely ignored as a result? And if it doesn't, should another feat that gives a couple extra Spell Points be a consideration for the Sorcerer as a class feat in lieu of the increase from the advanced bloodline power feats? Because the implication of using Spell Points to fuel spell modification is either a retread of another system's version or making the unique niche of the Sorcerer the master of the Spell Point system.

Right now, I see the current design space of the Sorcerer to be a master of innate power and magical items. Not so much the creation, but having an instinctive knack in their operation in ways that even their creators were unaware.

[Porridge]

Kalvit wrote:

If Spell Points as a resource to heighten or otherwise adjust spells were to be implemented, then the consequences must also be considered. How does this affect bloodline powers? Other than losing valuable points that could fuel those abilities, could this feature impact Sorcerers play experience in a way that makes any bloodline power completely ignored as a result? And if it doesn't, should another feat that gives a couple extra Spell Points be a consideration for the Sorcerer as a class feat in lieu of the increase from the advanced bloodline power feats?

Yeah, good questions. So you raise two potential worries here:

Potential Worry 1: Will this use of spell points lead to sorcerer bloodline powers being ignored?

I think this will depend on what spells known one chooses.

If you pick spells at the levels that you're most likely to want to use them (as this system would incentivize you to do) then I could easily imagine only using the changing-spell-level ability a couple times a session, if that. That would leave plenty of spell points leftover for using bloodline powers.

On the other hand, if you stuff your 1st level spells known with a bunch of spells you only intend to cast at higher levels, then I could easily see burning through them pretty quickly. But this set-up disincentivizes you from picking spells this way (since changing spell levels costs resources), so I suspect this won't be too big a worry.

Of course, this is just armchair speculation. One would want to do some play-testing to see how this works in practice!

If this did turn out to be a problem, one could have separate pools for changing spell levels and using bloodline powers. But I'm a fan of PF2's consolidation of things you have to keep track of, so it would be nicer if one didn't have to do this.

Potential Worry 2: Will the Sorcerer have enough spell points in general?

The default rule in PF2 seems to be that for each extra way of using spell points you get comes with a spell point boost equal to the cost of using that ability once. So in this case, it would be natural to pair the spell-level-changing ability gained at 3rd level with a +1 increase in spell points.

That aside, I agree that having some class feats that increase spell points would be nice. To some extent, those already exist, since more advanced bloodline powers also increase spell points. (And that might be an independent motivation for taking them!) But one could also include a separate feat that did nothing but increase one's spell point pool by (say) +3. That would seem like a natural addition.

[Mergy]

Could this be paired with using spell slots to regain spell points? Sorcerers being great at powers (both theirs and any they might multiclass into) would be a cool niche.

[Snickersnax]

Just allow sorcerers to use spell slots to cast whatever spells they have in their spell repertoire spontaneously heightening any spells that get cast using a higher spell slot than normal.

Its simple, its not OP, it satisfies your 4 desired criteria.

[Porridge]

Snickersnax wrote:

Just allow sorcerers to use spell slots to cast whatever spells they have in their spell repertoire spontaneously heightening any spells that get cast using a higher spell slot than normal.

Its simple, its not OP, it satisfies your 4 desired criteria.

Yeah, in the old play test thread, Mark noted that what you describe was the original way he designed the Sorcerer to work. But internal play tests convinced the developers that it didn’t satisfy desiderata 3 and 4. That is, there was a lot of decision paralysis, and balance concerns.

Like you (and Mark!) I find this surprising. But granting that the original propoposal does, indeed, fail to satisfy desiderata 3 and 4, then that option is off the table. :(

So the question becomes: how else might things be set up that avoids these problems?

[Snickersnax]

Porridge wrote:

Yeah, in the old play test thread, Mark noted that this was the original way he designed the Sorcerer to work. But internal play tests convinced the developers that it didn’t satisfy desiderata 3 and 4. That is, there was a lot of decision paralysis, and balance concerns.

Like you (and Mark!) I find this surprising. But granting that the original propoposal does, indeed, fail to satisfy desiderata 3 and 4, then that option is off the table. :(

So the question becomes: how else might things be set up that avoids these problems?

Wow! I play with a group that has decision paralysis on almost every aspect of the game. It typically takes us 2-3 x as long as the average to play a game or do character creation. Every decision gets evaluated and optimized.

There are probably hundreds of places in the game where there are opportunities to remove decision paralysis and simplify. We've never had a problem with sorcerers being played the way I'm suggesting in past rule sets, and the current system (spontaneously heighten 2 spells of your choice / day) has created more choice difficulty with our team than spontaneously heightening by spell slot ever would.

As far as balance goes. I'm not sure how this is a problem at all. Instead of casting a level 4 spell, the sorcerer casts a level 1 spell at 4th level. Both use the same spell slot. How could there possibly be a balance issue?

Maybe folks are confused about how the spontaneous heightening idea works, because the language is a bit misleading. IF they thought that ALL spells automatically get heightened to your maximum spell level, I guess I could see how that might be a balance issue. But that's not the solution I or most people have been suggesting.

If balance is somehow still a problem, I wouldn't mind a slight decrease in spell repertoire to get this change. Right now the spell selection is so weak I'm often just trying to pick the least bad option rather than the next good one when I'm filling out the spell repertoire.

[Dragonborn3]

On the Bloodline Powers point maybe if they were worth a spell point more often than not? come on, a bite attack? Natural weapons are cool but putting them on a class not meant for the front lines seems wrong. Certainly wasn't easy to use in PF1...

[Sir NotAppearingInThisFilm]

If using spell points to heighten spells raises a concern over diminishing the use of bloodline powers, how about using Resonance instead? Especially with the current talk of using Resonance only on permanent items, a sorcerer could invest in whatever items, and then use the rest for spell-heightening.

[Snickersnax]

Dragonborn3 wrote:

On the Bloodline Powers point maybe if they were worth a spell point more often than not? come on, a bite attack? Natural weapons are cool but putting them on a class not meant for the front lines seems wrong. Certainly wasn't easy to use in PF1...

In PF2 a lot of people have been playing what would have been considered a squishy from previous editions on the "front lines".

Mostly because:

1) Everybody is squishy because monsters OP
2) There is no front line because few AoO and 3-action economy allows for easy mobility to the "back lines"
3) Up until 1.3 there has been easy access to armor, so casters can have ACs equal to martials. There has been a slight but IMO insignificant dial back on this for 1.3.
4) Low entry access to magic weapon spell, true strike, magic weapons in general, and magical striker feat make melee casters a thing.
5) Martial skills have been enormously buffed and spells have been nerfed. Wizards and Sorcerers now make better martials.

All the being said I agree that most bloodline powers and many powers are very weak.

[ereklich]

+1 to the idea of a General Feat that gives, say, 3 or 4 Spell Points. Regardless of whether the Sorc becomes best at Spell Points (which *would* be cool) giving anyone the ability to simply get more fuel would be welcome.

[Isiah.AT]

The balancing issue is the fact that the vancian system is being used. If the Arcanist system was being used, a Sorcerer heightening an unlimited number of spells would be balanced. The Vancian system currently being used does cause analysis paralysis when initially picking sorcerer and bard spells, but day to day for other classes.

Someone did point out that most fantasy uses the Arcanist systems, so new players having been exposed to that might find Vancian off-putting and weird. Arcanist systems are easier to learn and track than Vancian. While Paizo should attempt to correct balance issues, by their own admission they are also trying to make a game we would like to play. With that said, there have been many threads arguing against Vancian and for Arcanist.

It feels more as if Paizo is trying to stick with Vancian so as to not look like they are copying another popular game that uses Arcanist. Granted that game has faild in their magic design in terms of balance and class design. It is also worth pointing out that most systems use the Arcanist systems and the most popular systems are using the Arcanist system.

In general, the vast majority of spells in the playtest are balanced. Powers on the other hand are generally underwhelming and uninteresting, this is particularly for bloodline powers, particularly that of Fey and Angelic. Fey is clearly the worst as spells that do the same thing are strictly better. While Angelic bloodline powers are strictly better than spells cast to do the same thing, they are extremely limited use effects.

With that being said, people want powers that have moderate to common use that scale better than spells that do similar things. Heck some of the powers simply need to scale and that's why no one picks most that don't.

It is also worth pointing out that limited one a day powers seem silly, particularly when other classes get them at a lower level more than 1/day casting, particularly if you have to spend spell points. It is one more thing to track. The one a day seriously needs to go. Quick casting is an easy fix if it costs 2 spell points.

In any case, these are the major issues and they can easily be addressed while maintaining balance.

[Snickersnax]

Isiah.AT wrote:

The balancing issue is the fact that the vancian system is being used. If the Arcanist system was being used, a Sorcerer heightening an unlimited number of spells would be balanced. The Vancian system currently being used does cause analysis paralysis when initially picking sorcerer and bard spells, but day to day for other classes.

I prefer wizards and clerics to use the Vancian system. We're not talking about a sorcerer heightening an unlimited number of spells.

The OP is talking about heightening based on Spell Points which are quite limited, and I was talking about heightening using spell slots which are also limited.

I think we agree on powers.

[Porridge]

Snickersnax wrote:

As far as balance goes. I'm not sure how this is a problem at all. Instead of casting a level 4 spell, the sorcerer casts a level 1 spell at 4th level. Both use the same spell slot. How could there possibly be a balance issue?

Maybe folks are confused about how the spontaneous heightening idea works, because the language is a bit misleading. IF they thought that ALL spells automatically get heightened to your maximum spell level, I guess I could see how that might be a balance issue. But that's not the solution I or most people have been suggesting.

If balance is somehow still a problem, I wouldn't mind a slight decrease in spell repertoire to get this change. Right now the spell selection is so weak I'm often just trying to pick the least bad option rather than the next good one when I'm filling out the spell...

I'd link to the posts in question, but I haven't figure out how to access the posts on the previous playtest thread... :(

Balance-wise, I think the worry was that by allowing heightening of any spell one has (using the appropriate level slot), one could have a menu of a 10 or 20 different spells one could cast using one's highest level slots, and I guess they found that this was too powerful?

Decision-paralysis-wise, I think that in their internal playtests it seemed like when people had that many options to choose from, their turns took a lot longer than the other classes did.

But like you, I found both of those results surprising (as did Mark, obviously, since this was how he originally designed them).

[Porridge]

Dragonborn3 wrote:

On the Bloodline Powers point maybe if they were worth a spell point more often than not? come on, a bite attack? Natural weapons are cool but putting them on a class not meant for the front lines seems wrong. Certainly wasn't easy to use in PF1...

Yeah, I'm not unsympathetic to this thought. And tweaking bloodline powers a bit might also help to ensure that the option of using spell points to change spell levels was balanced against bloodline powers.

Sir NotAppearingInThisFilm wrote:

If using spell points to heighten spells raises a concern over diminishing the use of bloodline powers, how about using Resonance instead? Especially with the current talk of using Resonance only on permanent items, a sorcerer could invest in whatever items, and then use the rest for spell-heightening.

Yeah, that's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how this would fit in with the replacement Resonance system they're implementing. (In part because I'm not sure what exactly the replacement system will be!)

It sounds like there will be two kinds of resonance-like systems, one for permanent items, and one for boosting temporary magic items. I'm not sure the points allocated for permanent items are a good resource to use, because this would effectively de-power the Sorcerer, by making it harder for them to avail themselves of permanent magic items if they want to use those points on spell-level-changing.

But maybe the resonance points that are designated for consumables and the like might be used in this way? Hard to tell without seeing the system in question...

[Kaboogy]

A heighten metamagic feat is an option that’ll sidestep the resource problem while remaining balanced.
Here’s a few other options (desiderata satisfied in square brackets)
- Heightening using spell points as suggested, coupeled with the ability to burn slots for points. This has the added value of further connecting the sorcerers’ innate magic (bloodline powers) with their learned magic (spell slots); it’ll also make sorcerer mc builds really interesting. [1,2,3?,4?]

- Free heightening and lowering, and reducing the spells known by one per level. [1,2,3?,4]

- Change bloodlines so you can only choose spells with the appropriate traits (from all lists), with complement powers. [1,2,3?,4?]
Examples that are not be balanced but show what I mean: Fire bloodline only gets fire spells (duh), one of the powers bypasses some resistance; Fey chooses from spells with the charm or plant traits; Celestial gets all good and light spells, and one of the powers grows wings.
This option needs some elbow grease to be balanced, and I put it here because I think themed magic fits the idea of sorcerers really well.

I personally think low number of themed spells known with a bunch of metamagic and free heightening is the best option (and one that can fill loads of splat books), but it might be a bit out there for others.

[Porridge]

Kaboogy wrote:

A heighten metamagic feat is an option that’ll sidestep the resource problem while remaining balanced.

Here’s a few other options (desiderata satisfied in square brackets)
- Heightening using spell points as suggested, coupeled with the ability to burn slots for points. This has the added value of further connecting the sorcerers’ innate magic (bloodline powers) with their learned magic (spell slots); it’ll also make sorcerer mc builds really interesting. [1,2,3?,4?]

- Free heightening and lowering, and reducing the spells known by one per level. [1,2,3?,4]

- Change bloodlines so you can only choose spells with the appropriate traits (from all lists), with complement powers. [1,2,3?,4?]
Examples that are not be balanced but show what I mean: Fire bloodline only gets fire spells (duh), one of the powers bypasses some resistance; Fey chooses from spells with the charm or plant traits; Celestial gets all good and light spells, and one of the powers grows wings.
This option needs some elbow grease to be balanced, and I put it here because I think themed magic fits the idea of sorcerers really well.

Great suggestions!

First, as an aside, in each case I think it's important to allow for heightening and lowering -- it just feels wrong to me to be able to (say) be able to cast a powerful Heal spell but not a weaker one. But I take it everything you're saying is compatible with that.

1. I like your first suggestion a lot (can heighten/lower for a spell point, and burn slots for more points). It's a tad more powerful than the proposal I offered. But it's a very nice fit thematically.

And, as an additional perk, it boosts the impact of your bloodline choice, since it allows you to use your bloodline powers a lot if you want to. That really puts the bloodline at the front and center of the class. And it really helps to distinguish the Sorcerer from the other spell-casting classes.

2. I like the second suggestion too (free heightening and lowering, and lowering spells known by 1), but I suspect that many of the worries regarding the original proposal will probably apply here as well (especially regarding decision paralysis). Indeed, I suspect this is the first think the devs tried changing when they encountered problems with the initial proposal, but found that this didn't work either. So I think the odds of us getting something like this are low... :(

3. The third suggestion (small thematically linked groups of spells and powers that one can, presumably heighten and lower for free) is the option that best fits the magic user in most fantasy literature. It would be awesome to have an option like this for people to play.

My main worry about this option appearing in the CRB are the same as the worries you raise -- namely, that it would require a lot of work to put together and balance properly. (It also might irk some who wanted the new Sorcerer to not be too different from the old one.) And I suspect that this is something the devs won't have time to do.

But, like you, I think this is in many respects the most attractive option. And if we don't get something like this in the CRB, I really hope we'll get an archetype or different class which does work this way in the books to follow!

[Snickersnax]

Porridge wrote:

First, as an aside, in each case I think it's important to allow for heightening and lowering -- it just feels wrong to me to be able to (say) be able to cast a powerful Heal spell but not a weaker one.

I'm still not sure I know what you mean by lowering spells. Your example with the heal spell didn't help. Heal is a 1st level spell it can't get much lower. Are you suggesting to be able to cast it as a cantrip?

Or are you suggesting that sorcerers should be able to cast level 2 fireballs?

[Kaboogy]

It’s also important to remember the bard when discussing these things, as any structural changes to spontaneous casting will affect them too. I’d say any change to heightening and number of spells known will have to apply to both classes.
Then again I can see an argument for bards to be prepared, since their magic comes from rehearsing performances; this will make the sorcerer even more unique, while letting the bard keep most of their flavor (of which they have spades).

[Kaboogy]

Snickersnax wrote:

Porridge wrote:

First, as an aside, in each case I think it's important to allow for heightening and lowering -- it just feels wrong to me to be able to (say) be able to cast a powerful Heal spell but not a weaker one.

I'm still not sure I know what you mean by lowering spells. Your example with the heal spell didn't help. Heal is a 1st level spell it can't get much lower. Are you suggesting to be able to cast it as a cantrip?

Or are you suggesting that sorcerers should be able to cast level 2 fireballs?

The meaning is that if you learn fireball for the first time at character level 7, meaning as a level 4 spell, you could still cast it using a level 3 slot.

I specifically didn’t mention lowering in my post since I’m still going back and forth between auto lowering and only being able to learn spells at their lowest level.

[The Sideromancer]

A sorc's known spells are at a fixed level, i.e. they learn "level 3 heal" instead of "generic heal." This would effectively remove that when active, letting a sorcerer that knows any level of Heal cast Heal at any valid level.

[Ediwir]

One could make the sorcerer’s Spontaneous Heighten feature into an action, costing 1 spell point and granting 2 when gained, that would allow to choose 1 spell and cast it at any level for 1 minute.
Class-exclusive, feels spontaneous, has more or less the same effect as current, Bard keeps the daily prep because he’s not master of all magics.

No?

[ereklich]

Ediwir wrote:

One could make the sorcerer’s Spontaneous Heighten feature into an action, costing 1 spell point and granting 2 when gained, that would allow to choose 1 spell and cast it at any level for 1 minute.

Class-exclusive, feels spontaneous, has more or less the same effect as current, Bard keeps the daily prep because he’s not master of all magics.

No?

I'd much rather have it as a Free Action that only applies to one spell per Spell Point. The action cost seems excessive for something that you won't usually want to use more than once, maybe twice, in that minute timeframe (since you only have so many of the higher level spell slots anyway)

[Snickersnax]

Porridge wrote:

Here's an alternative that, I think, satisfies all four desiderata.

Allow Sorcerers to have the same number of spells known and spell slots as they currently do.
Replace the Spontaneous Hightening ability with the following: a Sorcerer can use 1 spell point to spontaneously heighten or decrease the spell level effect of any spell they know.

So your Desideratum 3 isn't satisfied here at all.

As I am beginning to understand the problem. Its the sorcerers turn and now he has to decide do I use a level 1, 2,3,4, or 5th level spell slot.

The best way to fix this might be to have sorcerers have spells on their list only at their lowest level and then allow spontaneous heightening to only their maximum level.

So the sorcerer casts heal using a level 1 spell slot and uses a spell point to spontaneously heighten it to max level.

The spontaneous heighten class feature gets replaced with: Use spell points to spontaneously heighten a spell you cast to your maximum level for 1 spell point and the feature gives you an extra 2 spell points.

This:

1) meets all your desiderata
2) eliminates the funk of sorcerers having Heal1, heal2, heal3, fireball4, etc
3) adds a cool side effect of sorcerers sometimes using more power than is necessary to solve a problem. They only have base level spell and max level spell.
4) Spell point use keeps the power balance in check, but gives the sorcerer a much needed boost.
5) Bloodline powers are still slightly favored because they don't use any spell slots

The wizard is a screwdriver, the sorcerer is a hammer

[JackieLane]

There are some interesting ideas here. Pertaining to Snickersnax idea, I like the way it would differenciate sorcerers and wizards, and I think it would be interesting. However, in some situations, I think it could become very difficult in some cases, sometimes rendering some spell slots entirely useless or meaning that certain situations requiring a spell would make you use up all your max-level and minimum level spell slots, then not being able to help.

To keep with this idea, give a little more flexibility and still make sorcerers specialists, I think along with this change, a feat could be created that would allow a sorcerer to pick one spell from there repertoire which they would be able to cast at any level. That way, say a celestial sorcerer wants to be able to always heal his allies, much like a cleric, but still wants to do some other stuff with their max level spell slots, they can pick that feat with the Heal spell and cast Heal at whatever level they want any time they want. That would make them potential specialists with a very specific type of magic they know very well, but still very much hammers in everything else.

[Porridge]

It seems there might be a little confusion about what the various proposals are. So let me spell them out, as I understand them.

Mark's original idea, as I understand it, was basically what a number of people have advocated on the boards. Namely, that Sorcerer's would have a certain number of spells known of each spell level, as in PF1. And then they would be able to spontaneously heighten these spells -- use a higher level spell slot to cast a higher level version of the spell -- whenever they want.

This, unfortunately, seemed to lead to decision paralysis and was considered unbalanced.

The proposal I was making was pretty much the same as Mark's, except for two things. (1) To spontaneously change the level of the spell, you need to spend a spell point (a free action). (2) Upon doing so, you can spontaneously raise or lower the level of the spell.

So if you know Heal 2, you can (a) cast Heal 2 using a 2nd level slot, or (b) use a spell point to cast Heal 1 using a 1st level slot (if you're out of 2nd level slots, say), or (c) use a spell point to cast Heal 3 using a 3rd level slot, and so on.

Snickersnax wrote:

So your Desideratum 3 isn't satisfied here at all.

I'm not sure what you have in mind, but here's why I was thinking desideratum 3 would be satisfied by the proposal I sketched in the OP.

Because you only have a limited number of spell points, you're not expecting to change the spell level of your spell very often. Instead, you learn spells at the levels you think you're most likely to use them at. It's only in special cases -- e.g., you know Heal 2, but have run out of second level spell slots, or you know Charm 1 but you want to try to charm a non-humanoid -- that you'll be thinking about using one of your spell points to change the spell level. So (unlike with Mark's original proposal, where you could heighten for free) it's not a choice you need to actively consider whenever you cast a spell. Usually, you'll just use the default level, since it costs precious resources to do otherwise. And so usually it isn't something you'll need to devote much mental energy to considering.

Snickersnax wrote:

The best way to fix this might be to have sorcerers have spells on their list only at their lowest level and then allow spontaneous heightening to only their maximum level.

So the sorcerer casts heal using a level 1 spell slot and uses a spell point to spontaneously heighten it to max level.

The spontaneous heighten class feature gets replaced with: Use spell points to spontaneously heighten a spell you cast to your maximum level for 1 spell point and the feature gives you an extra 2 spell points.

This:

1) meets all your desiderata
2) eliminates the funk of sorcerers having Heal1, heal2, heal3, fireball4, etc
3) adds a cool side effect of sorcerers sometimes using more power than is necessary to solve a problem. They only have base level spell and max level spell.
4) Spell point use keeps the power balance in check, but gives the sorcerer a much needed boost.
5) Bloodline powers are still slightly favored because they don't use any spell slots

The wizard is a screwdriver, the sorcerer is a hammer

That's an interesting proposal. And I agree that it has a lot of nice features. A couple drawbacks of this approach, if I'm understanding it correctly:

This would seem to lead to very limited heightening. I.e., if your max spell level is 5, and you have 2 5th level spell slots, then you can only heighten twice a day. (And only in one particular way: raising a spell to max level.)

While I agree that this would reduce the cognitive load of decision making even more than my proposal, it wouldn't leave much in the way of using heightening/undercasting as a way of making the Sorcerer a flexible spellcaster.

This proposal would put your mid level spell slots in a weird position. If you can only learn spells at their lowest level, and only heighten them to their highest level, then it looks like it could be difficult to find easy ways to use your mid-level slots. I guess you could carefully select spells whose lowest level is one of those mid-level slots, or something, but that would seem to constrain the spells Sorcerers learn in awkward ways.

Although I agree it's a neat idea that captures the picture of an overpowered blaster without much control of their magic, it's not that great a fit with the typical fantasy trope of a magic user who's really good at, say, fire magic, and can cast all sorts of fire spells from weak to strong, as the situation warrants. Insofar as we want the Sorcerer to help us to play something closer to that fantasy trope, one might want a version of the Sorcerer that allows for a bit more flexibility than this proposal allows.

[Snickersnax]

Porridge wrote:

That's an interesting proposal. And I agree that it has a lot of nice features. A couple drawbacks of this approach, if I'm understanding it correctly:

This would seem to lead to very limited heightening. I.e., if your max spell level is 5, and you have 2 5th level spell slots, then you can only heighten twice a day. (And only in one particular way: raising a spell to max level.)

JackieLane wrote:

There are some interesting ideas here. Pertaining to Snickersnax idea, I like the way it would differenciate sorcerers and wizards, and I think it would be interesting. However, in some situations, I think it could become very difficult in some cases, sometimes rendering some spell slots entirely useless or meaning that certain situations requiring a spell would make you use up all your max-level and minimum level spell slots, then not being able to help.

I guess I wasn't very clear about my proposal. Here is an example to demonstrate what I was trying to say.

Say a 7th level sorcerer wants to cast a heightened Mage Armor spell. He has Mage Armor as a Level 1 Spell in his repertoire. He casts the spell using a Level 1 spell slot and as a free action spends a spell point to spontaneously heighten the spell to 4th level (his maximum level). This does NOT use a 4th level spell slot.

Thus the concerns of the above posts about using higher level spell slots up are not present.

[Kaboogy]

Snickersnax wrote:

I guess I wasn't very clear about my proposal. Here is an example to demonstrate what I was trying to say.

Say a 7th level sorcerer wants to cast a heightened Mage Armor spell. He has Mage Armor as a Level 1 Spell in his repertoire. He casts the spell using a Level 1 spell slot and as a free action spends a spell point to spontaneously heighten the spell to 4th level (his maximum level). This does NOT use a 4th level spell slot.

This would make sorcerers MUCH stronger than other casters, more than tripling the number of heighest level slots they have.

[Porridge]

Snickersnax wrote:

I guess I wasn't very clear about my proposal. Here is an example to demonstrate what I was trying to say.

Say a 7th level sorcerer wants to cast a heightened Mage Armor spell. He has Mage Armor as a Level 1 Spell in his repertoire. He casts the spell using a Level 1 spell slot and as a free action spends a spell point to spontaneously heighten the spell to 4th level (his maximum level). This does NOT use a 4th level spell slot.

Snickersnax wrote:

have sorcerers have spells on their list only at their lowest level and then allow spontaneous heightening to only their maximum level.

So the sorcerer casts heal using a level 1 spell slot and uses a spell point to spontaneously heighten it to max level.

I think you're right that I wasn't following what your proposal was...

Upon re-reading it sounds like this (is this right)?:

Sorcerers only learn spells at their lowest level. (So a sorcerer can only learn Heal 1, not Heal 2, or any higher level Heal spell.)

Sorcerers can cast those spells using their usual slots. (So they can cast Heal 1 using a 1st level slot.)

Sorcerers can cast heightened versions of spells they know, but (a) must spend a spell point to do so, (b) can only heighten to the maximum spell level they can cast, and (c) must use a spell slot of the spell's original level (not its heightened level) to cast it.

If that's right, then it seems like Sorcerers may have a hard time making use of their higher level slots... (Since they can't just know Heal 4 and use a fourth level slot to cast it (because they can only know the lowest level version of a spell, Heal 1), and they won't use a fourth level slot if they choose to heighten the Heal 1 spell they know, because that uses a 1st level slot, not a 4th level slot.)

But perhaps I'm missing, or misunderstanding, some part of the proposal?

[Snickersnax]

Porridge wrote:

Snickersnax wrote:

I guess I wasn't very clear about my proposal. Here is an example to demonstrate what I was trying to say.

Say a 7th level sorcerer wants to cast a heightened Mage Armor spell. He has Mage Armor as a Level 1 Spell in his repertoire. He casts the spell using a Level 1 spell slot and as a free action spends a spell point to spontaneously heighten the spell to 4th level (his maximum level). This does NOT use a 4th level spell slot.

Snickersnax wrote:

have sorcerers have spells on their list only at their lowest level and then allow spontaneous heightening to only their maximum level.

So the sorcerer casts heal using a level 1 spell slot and uses a spell point to spontaneously heighten it to max level.

I think you're right that I wasn't following what your proposal was...

Upon re-reading it sounds like this (is this right)?:

Sorcerers only learn spells at their lowest level. (So a sorcerer can only learn Heal 1, not Heal 2, or any higher level Heal spell.)

Sorcerers can cast those spells using their usual slots. (So they can cast Heal 1 using a 1st level slot.)

Sorcerers can cast heightened versions of spells they know, but (a) must spend a spell point to do so, (b) can only heighten to the maximum spell level they can cast, and (c) must use a spell slot of the spell's original level (not its heightened level) to cast it.

If that's right, then it seems like Sorcerers may have a hard time making use of their higher level slots... (Since they can't just know Heal 4 and use a fourth level slot to cast it (because they can only know the lowest level version of a spell, Heal 1), and they won't use a fourth level slot if they choose to heighten the Heal 1 spell they know, because that uses a 1st level slot, not a 4th level slot.)

But perhaps I'm missing, or misunderstanding, some part of the proposal?

Yes this is what I am suggesting. I'm not sure why sorcerers would have a hard time using their higher level slots. Presumably there are at least some spells worth casting at that are something other than level 1 or 2.

For those people that are worried about the sorcerer being too powerful with this proposal. The limitation that you may not have considered is that sorcerers would only be able to cast a single spell at most 4 times. So now instead of having a sorcerer that can heal 16+ times by 8th level, the sorcerer would only be able to heal 4 times (4 first level spell slots).

[Porridge]

Snickersnax wrote:

Porridge wrote:

Snickersnax wrote:

I guess I wasn't very clear about my proposal. Here is an example to demonstrate what I was trying to say.

Say a 7th level sorcerer wants to cast a heightened Mage Armor spell. He has Mage Armor as a Level 1 Spell in his repertoire. He casts the spell using a Level 1 spell slot and as a free action spends a spell point to spontaneously heighten the spell to 4th level (his maximum level). This does NOT use a 4th level spell slot.

Snickersnax wrote:

have sorcerers have spells on their list only at their lowest level and then allow spontaneous heightening to only their maximum level.

So the sorcerer casts heal using a level 1 spell slot and uses a spell point to spontaneously heighten it to max level.

I think you're right that I wasn't following what your proposal was...

Upon re-reading it sounds like this (is this right)?:

Sorcerers only learn spells at their lowest level. (So a sorcerer can only learn Heal 1, not Heal 2, or any higher level Heal spell.)

Sorcerers can cast those spells using their usual slots. (So they can cast Heal 1 using a 1st level slot.)

Sorcerers can cast heightened versions of spells they know, but (a) must spend a spell point to do so, (b) can only heighten to the maximum spell level they can cast, and (c) must use a spell slot of the spell's original level (not its heightened level) to cast it.

If that's right, then it seems like Sorcerers may have a hard time making use of their higher level slots... (Since they can't just know Heal 4 and use a fourth level slot to cast it (because they can only know the lowest level version of a spell, Heal 1), and they won't use a fourth level slot if they choose to heighten the Heal 1 spell they know, because that uses a 1st level slot, not a 4th level slot.)

But perhaps I'm missing, or misunderstanding, some part of the proposal?

Yes this is what I am suggesting. I'm not sure why sorcerers would have a hard time using their higher level...

Ah, I see. I guess my main concern would be that this might oddly constrain one's spell choices at higher levels. At first glance, it seems like there will be a number of cases where you'd like to know a higher level version of a spell, but you wouldn't be allowed to do so on this approach. This seems like it could lead to people being forced to add in "filler" spells they don't really want at various levels in order to not waste them, and to try to get an opportunity to use their higher level spell slots.

But that's all armchair talk. Whether these are real worries or not would have be tried out at the table.

If you do try out something like this, let me know; I'd be very curious to hear how it works out!

[Snickersnax]

Porridge wrote:

Ah, I see. I guess my main concern would be that this might oddly constrain one's spell choices at higher levels. At first glance, it seems like there will be a number of cases where you'd like to know a higher level version of a spell, but you wouldn't be allowed to do so on this approach. This seems like it could lead to people being forced to add in "filler" spells they don't really want at various levels in order to not waste them, and to try to get an opportunity to use their higher level spell slots.

But that's all armchair talk. Whether these are real worries or not would have be tried out at the table.

I feel like it frees up your higher level spell repertoire and spell slots because you can actually take and cast spells that of that level instead of using up your higher level slots for upgraded versions of low level spells

Porridge wrote:

being forced to add in "filler" spells they don't really want at various levels in order to not waste them

I agree with you that many spells are so bad right now that this could be a problem but this is a separate issue of many spells needing a rework.