We have a new way to SPAM cure light wounds.

[graystone]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I strongly disagree. Having one person with Medicine borders on being a requirement, but more than one is a luxury and in no way necessary. One person provides sufficient uses most days and in most situations. You need some extra for when they crit fail, but you need some for in-combat healing anyway.

You hit why more than 1 person is REQUIRED to max out medicine: crit failure. If you're expecting medicine to cover you on an adventure and the single person crit fails on the first roll what then? everyone goes home for the day? Now lets say you go to the next person, but they don't have as good a roll and crit fail more often so it's sooner before it gives out... I'm REALLY not seeing why everyone doesn't have it.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

In most games, most of the time, taking Medicine is a waste for most PCs. Specifically, it's gonna usually be a waste if someone else has it, and almost always a waste if two other people have it.

Will it be used every time? No. Will it be used at some point? I'd say 100%. Can you say with a straight face that you don't expect any failures before the party is healed enough? Or that secondary will fail more? I'm not seeing how it's a waste. Is a knowledge a waste if you only use it every few adventures?

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Because it's usually completely superfluous and you want to use the skill rank for other things.

This is another reason you want multiple people with it: if you use only one person, they effectively only get 1 skill they can use every rest while others can do other things. Now what do you do if the 'healer' wants to use a skill during the break? Or to you take a break AFTER your healing break? Or what happens is the 'healer' is knocked out/petrified/paralyzed/ect and can't make the roll?

Deadmanwalking wrote:

10 minutes almost never makes all wounds go away unless they weren't very serious. And bandaging up after a fight is very thematically sound.

You're reading different fantasies than I then. When I see a story with magic healing in it, you never see bandaging getting the person back to normal but as a standby until 'real' magic healing can do it. It really makes a magic healer seem not so magical when those bandages do the same thing. Again, bandages work great for a 'action movie' type story but 'magic fantasy' I'm going to disagree.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Wands that work like Wands of CLW are pretty universally not supported in the fiction

I've seen the equivalent [healing water with a limited amount of uses]. I've seen magic bread too. Just because wands in particular aren't that common doesn't mean healing with charges/uses isn't. If the only issue is how it LOOKS, that's optics. Magic it magic and uses is uses.

Secondly, playing the game doesn't really model a story in many ways: while the protagonist takes at most a few scrapes as his plot armor avoids the majority of damage pathfinder PC's expect constant and consistent damage unlike a story. A wand isn't seen as it solves a problem you most time just don't see in a story because what makes good mechanics is different from what makes a good story.

[thenobledrake]

graystone wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

By which I mean the time limit existing is less likely to elicit a response from a participant in the story along the lines of "...that's goofy."

We'll have to agree to disagree. In a 'we don't know when the ceremony will start so we have to hurry' situation, taking a 1/2 hour nap is more 'this is goofy' than the wands

You've failed to see my point clearly.

I'm not talking about a situation in which the players are saying "we don't know when the ceremony will start so we have to hurry" and are deciding if they have enough time to heal up (though if I were, I would hope that the players would actually choose not to spend any time healing because they don't know when the ceremony will start, so whether it's a '1/2 hour nap' or just a minute spent wanding they would actually, well, hurry).

I'm talking about a situation in which the players have decided to take whatever time it is going to take in order to do their out-of-combat healing, and something comes along while they are in the process (i.e. they have discovered that they don't have the time required).

If the party has been spending the last few minutes assessing wounds and bandaging up in the middle of some adventure locale, the "you've been interrupted" narrative is readily believable. If they've spent mere seconds getting their wands out, the same narrative is met with all manner of questions and/or complaints.

The players are also a whole lot more likely to believe that they have the time it takes to wand-up after every battle than they are to believe that they can safely and reliably spend hours between each battle, which is another significant factor in determining how frequently a party will actually be restored to full hit points in practice.

[Shaheer-El-Khatib]

graystone wrote:

thenobledrake wrote:

By which I mean the time limit existing is less likely to elicit a response from a participant in the story along the lines of "...that's goofy."

We'll have to agree to disagree. In a 'we don't know when the ceremony will start so we have to hurry' situation, taking a 1/2 hour nap is more 'this is goofy' than the wands: it's like the video games that give you an 'urgent' quest but has no enforced timeline so you can put it off. It's a very narrow road to walk to make the longer wait make more sense with a time limit.

As to the rest, it seems like optic.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

The thing is that using Treat Wounds is only free in terms of money (well, you need to buy a healer's kit, but that's a negligible expense). Doing it reliably requires a fairly decent skill investment, and also a fair bit of time in many cases (and takes more time the less you invest in the skill). Both are significant investments, far more significant than the money required for a Wand of CLW is at 10th level in PF1.

I don't see it as an investment but more a requirement now: what party isn't going to buy a healers kit [the whole party can use it] and is there a reason for anyone to not max out the skill? it's the new perception skill that most everyone maxed out.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

It's also not unlimited

Close enough. By the time everyone crit fails, the other resources they have will be out and they need to rest anyway. Again, why wouldn't everyone take the skill for free rolls?

Deadmanwalking wrote:

And then, of course, there's the thematic element: Using a dozen Wands of CLW is a bit odd and not supported by the fiction, while having a medic patch you up between fights is intuitive and supported by the fiction.

I'll disagree on thematics. Using magic seems far more in step with them than a few bandages, some spit and a 10 minute break makes all the wounds go away. A med patch works in sci-fi and mundane adventures but that's not pathfinder. 'Fiction' doesn't...

If that is your problem just reflavor it as a Ritual that everyone learning medicine (the art of healing) learn.

You are a Monk ? Said you learn to boost others ki with some time and increase healing.

You are a cleric ? Throw some religious pray.

Fey Sorcerer or druid ? Suck healing power from Mother Nature.

Fighter ? I have no idea but ultimately I Will found one.

Anyway if the flavor is the issue it is not an issue.

[Shaheer-El-Khatib]

graystone wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I strongly disagree. Having one person with Medicine borders on being a requirement, but more than one is a luxury and in no way necessary. One person provides sufficient uses most days and in most situations. You need some extra for when they crit fail, but you need some for in-combat healing anyway.

You hit why more than 1 person is REQUIRED to max out medicine: crit failure. If you're expecting medicine to cover you on an adventure and the single person crit fails on the first roll what then? everyone goes home for the day? Now lets say you go to the next person, but they don't have as good a roll and crit fail more often so it's sooner before it gives out... I'm REALLY not seeing why everyone doesn't have it.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

In most games, most of the time, taking Medicine is a waste for most PCs. Specifically, it's gonna usually be a waste if someone else has it, and almost always a waste if two other people have it.

Will it be used every time? No. Will it be used at some point? I'd say 100%. Can you say with a straight face that you don't expect any failures before the party is healed enough? Or that secondary will fail more? I'm not seeing how it's a waste. Is a knowledge a waste if you only use it every few adventures?

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Because it's usually completely superfluous and you want to use the skill rank for other things.

This is another reason you want multiple people with it: if you use only one person, they effectively only get 1 skill they can use every rest while others can do other things. Now what do you do if the 'healer' wants to use a skill during the break? Or to you take a break AFTER your healing break? Or what happens is the 'healer' is knocked out/petrified/paralyzed/ect and can't make the roll?

Deadmanwalking wrote:

10 minutes almost never makes all wounds go away unless they weren't very serious. And bandaging up after a fight is very thematically sound.

You're reading different fantasies...

1/ You usually avoid overlaping competence in a group.

2/ If everyone take medicine and max it you Will 100% lack in other area and that can doom you.
Good luck with 6 Legendary medicine if the threat is a death sentence in court and no one took Diplomacy.

3/ Yes it is still really appealing. It should be. Having a lot of appealing option make build choice matter.

[Elleth]

Dire Ursus wrote:

It allows me as a GM to set up timed challenges that make the 10 minutes of healing time actually important. See chapter 3 of doomsday dawn as a great example.

My players definitely treat time as a pretty big cost, so I'm happy with it eating a bit. They definitely wouldn't use as much time as it takes to heal everybody to full unless absolutely vital. E.g. it probably doesn't help that on one occasion resting for the night in my old game allowed the baddie to arrive at a location before them, commit a massacre, and plunge a city into hell.

I also just sort of appreciate a trained medic not being less useful than a wad of cash.

They should address the scaling though, perhaps by the "set a level" variant highlighted by somebody (Lyee?)

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

"Bandages" is pretty reductive.

It's also stitches, shoving dislocated joints in place, handing a character some painkilling herbs to chew, and kissing booboos better.

I had a problem with Cure Light Wounds wands because it let you run from one fight to the next with less than a minute of "pass the wand around".

10 minutes is a real cost, it's enough time for a random encounter chance, enough time for alerted enemies to set up defenses, and if used too many times in an adventure, enough time to run out.

[Naszir]

I dislike the idea of CLW wands and it is time for them to go. It has seemed to me so utterly artificial even from a game stand point. There has to be a better way and I am glad they are attempting to change it.

What about temporary hit points? If there were more ways to gain temporary hit points in combat, it would mitigate the reduction of hit points and allow for a longer adventuring day. Characters would still have to be concerned about their hit points but over a longer period of time (and that is what we are looking for right?) and this also helps with those who dislike the heal to full after ever fight. With more ways to gain temporary hit points, a character could still have his hit points decreasing but also not have to worry as much going into a fight without his hit points maxed out.

Flavor the temporary hit points as the luck and adrenaline that happens during combat. It all goes away at the end of an encounter and characters would need less "healing". We all know that hit points don't just represent how much physical damage a character can take and maybe temporary hit points can thematically be the intangibles that a character has while in combat.

[Deadmanwalking]

graystone wrote:

You hit why more than 1 person is REQUIRED to max out medicine: crit failure. If you're expecting medicine to cover you on an adventure and the single person crit fails on the first roll what then? everyone goes home for the day? Now lets say you go to the next person, but they don't have as good a roll and crit fail more often so it's sooner before it gives out... I'm REALLY not seeing why everyone doesn't have it.

By this logic, everyone has to have every possible limited resource, in the maximal amount possible, so as to never run out. The issue is that, once you hit a certain amount of any resource (even healing) more is superfluous. It is in excess of needs and requirements.

Add in that Treat Wounds is a purely out-of-combat option and you need some in-combat healing available, and thus someone inevitably has at least a little backup healing for when crit fails come up.

The fewer people taking Medicine the shorter the adventuring day...in theory. But since other resources (offensive spells and hours in the day) run out long before the fourth person crit fails Medicine in the vast majority of cases, those last couple of people are, for the most part, wasting their skill by putting it in Medicine. Or at least, that's how that seems likely to work out based on how likely crit fails are and how much healing most parties seem to need per day.

graystone wrote:

Will it be used every time? No. Will it be used at some point? I'd say 100%. Can you say with a straight face that you don't expect any failures before the party is healed enough? Or that secondary will fail more? I'm not seeing how it's a waste. Is a knowledge a waste if you only use it every few adventures?

It's a suboptimal choice if you use it much less often and to much less effect than whatever other skill you would've taken instead. The third person on the Medicine bandwagon would likely use most skills they would actually take to better effect and more often, and taking Medicine is thus not a great choice for that guy.

graystone wrote:

This is another reason you want multiple people with it: if you use only one person, they effectively only get 1 skill they can use every rest while others can do other things. Now what do you do if the 'healer' wants to use a skill during the break? Or to you take a break AFTER your healing break? Or what happens is the 'healer' is knocked out/petrified/paralyzed/ect and can't make the roll?

All of this is excellent justification for a second person with Medicine. A third or fourth? Not so much. there's only so much redundancy that's actually a good idea when you have limited character resources to invest in different capabilities.

graystone wrote:

You're reading different fantasies than I then. When I see a story with magic healing in it, you never see bandaging getting the person back to normal but as a standby until 'real' magic healing can do it. It really makes a magic healer seem not so magical when those bandages do the same thing. Again, bandages work great for a 'action movie' type story but 'magic fantasy' I'm going to disagree.

As others have noted, it's hardly 'just bandages'.

But more importantly: Yes, magic healing is better than mundane healing in most fiction. Heck, that remains true in PF2 even with this rule in the vast majority of cases.

But in most fiction, magical healing is also limited. There's not an unlimited amount of it and a lot of the time the protagonists need to make do with mundane medicine. To have that dynamic preoperly represented in RPGs is very tricky, and this version actually doesn't do a bad job, since it effectively makes magical healing the quick/emergency/in-combat solution.

graystone wrote:

I've seen the equivalent [healing water with a limited amount of uses]. I've seen magic bread too. Just because wands in particular aren't that common doesn't mean healing with charges/uses isn't. If the only issue is how it LOOKS, that's optics. Magic it magic and uses is uses.

Optics are very important when discussing theme. Also...what fantasy are you talking about? LITRPG stuff aside, I'm not sure I've ever run into magical healing from disposable items that is used on a casual daily basis. All of it is rare and precious, as a rule.

Lembas from LOTR doesn't heal at all, for example, it's 'just' a wonder food.

graystone wrote:

Secondly, playing the game doesn't really model a story in many ways: while the protagonist takes at most a few scrapes as his plot armor avoids the majority of damage pathfinder PC's expect constant and consistent damage unlike a story. A wand isn't seen as it solves a problem you most time just don't see in a story because what makes good mechanics is different from what makes a good story.

'Only takes a few scrapes due to plot armor' is an excellent narrative justification for how a successful Medicine check heals PCs in PF2 after the addition of Treat Wounds. It's sort of retroactive plot armor. On a successful check it 'looked worse than it was'.