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Had a ranger really want to make snares but gave up on the concept after realizing:
- Snares are fairly expensive for their effects, given that they already require a skill feat to make and 1 minute to set up before use (at 10gp, a 4th level snare is 1/3 the liquid assets of a 4th level character, and even a 1st level snare is as expensive as a minor healing potion)
- Snares incentivize investing in Crafting skill increases, but if you want a discount from crafting you have to spend days of downtime making them.
- A Snare Kit is required to set up snares, and is 8 bulk, possibly more than the rest of a character's gear combined.
Is this all correct? Has anyone found snares to actually be worth it?
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That's all correct, and there's one more problem too: like the alchemist, a snare user suffers from the save DCs not scaling to their level.
My group and I actually love snares conceptually but are put off by how bad they are in practice. We want them to stay, but to become a GOOD option. Our vision of the ideal is a Ranger being able to focus on snares instead of or in addition to animals or etc, tossing down snares as casually as a barbarian swings an axe, acting as a martial controller.
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Agreed. Snares are cool in theory (martial area controller) but terrible in practice. I think they should change it to a spell point power based abilities. Like how the paladin gets his own unique powers. This way they will be free and only take a few actions.
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While a martial character with battlefield control would be awesome and give rangers a unique purpose, that would be making rangers awesome.
Currently they cost far too much, take far too long to set, and effect far too small of an area. They certainly are traps, but only for the character that wastes feats on them.
I believe the issue of "I need multiple class feats to be able to incorporate this in a playstyle" has been raised on several threads, and it's common to a few classes (ignore Alchemist. Alchemist has issues).
Ranger using snares would be cool, but knowing it requires 2 feats and level 10 to even consider placing a snare during combat, and 3 feats and level 16 to be able to choose among more than a handful... It feels pretty awful.
Not to mention that even once you're lv10 and can do it in 1 round, you're not gonna get any faster, ever. It'll always be a full round, no matter what. Meanwhile Legendary Crafters can fix their broken shield in 1 action...
I really want Alchemists and Rangers to be able to gain free snares a day.
Also. another issue is that snares can not be prebuilt. and must be built in place if I remember the rule somewhere in the book. and crafting takes a while. might be remembering wrong but I think it was somewhere.
Which sort of confused me when it came to Ranger's having a "use 1 action to set snare" feat.
Yep, that's how snares work.
Yes Snares are useless. I help they get a major revision as I see no reason a player would want to use them. GMs sure. But players? Not likely.
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You also forgot that they have a stupid name.
A snare is a specific kind of trap.
Naming all traps as snares when they functionally and descriptively aren't looks dumb.
It would be like making a new rule set for the vehicles in 2e and deciding they will all be classified as wagons even though they include airships, boats, and chariots.
It would be like making a new rule set for the vehicles in 2e and deciding they will all be classified as wagons even though they include airships, boats, and chariots.
Someone never saw the 3.5 spell Ice Ship and contemplated non-transport related uses thereof. ;)
That's all correct, and there's one more problem too: like the alchemist, a snare user suffers from the save DCs not scaling to their level.
My group and I actually love snares conceptually but are put off by how bad they are in practice. We want them to stay, but to become a GOOD option. Our vision of the ideal is a Ranger being able to focus on snares instead of or in addition to animals or etc, tossing down snares as casually as a barbarian swings an axe, acting as a martial controller.
Isn't there a high level Ranger feat that lets a snare user's snares scale to their level (which, granted, suffers the problems of not being available until high level)?
You also forgot that they have a stupid name.
A snare is a specific kind of trap.
Naming all traps as snares when they functionally and descriptively aren't looks dumb.
Snares in 2e are a specific kind of trap.
Other kinds of traps are described in the Bestiary, under "Hazard". All traps have the "Trap" trait, and snares have the "snare" trait to indicate that they follow some specific rules dedicated to their subtype.We are trying to whine constructively here.
Isn't there a high level Ranger feat that lets a snare user's snares scale to their level (which, granted, suffers the problems of not being available until high level)?That's all correct, and there's one more problem too: like the alchemist, a snare user suffers from the save DCs not scaling to their level.
My group and I actually love snares conceptually but are put off by how bad they are in practice. We want them to stay, but to become a GOOD option. Our vision of the ideal is a Ranger being able to focus on snares instead of or in addition to animals or etc, tossing down snares as casually as a barbarian swings an axe, acting as a martial controller.
Level 16. And it only does that. Also, no benefit if the original DC is equal or higher than yours (which applies to nothing, as nothing gets close to the ~DC31 you'd get with it, or the higher ones you'd have at the later levels). Until then, you're stuck with DC22 and three options (three damaging traps that will deal at best 6d8 damage... y'know, if someone miraculously critfails), or no DC and three options (alarm, slowing, and signaling). The only scaling one is the Warning snare, which uses your Craft DC and is basically a more subtle Alarm.
I mean, sure, any feat that says "add +10 to your DC" would be massively powerful in any other context, but here it feels like ransom.
Regardless of all, it's the Slowing Snare that catches my eye and that I want the most. Unfortunately, it's still too small and slow to be a real benefit.
Edit:
for reference, these are the feats and benefits:
Snare Crafting: skill feat 1, allows you to craft snares (you learn 4 Common ones for free). Takes 1 minute, a bit of cash, and a skill check, or several days and half the cash (???).
Snare Savant: ranger feat 4, requires Expert craft, grants you 3 free Uncommon snares (and 6 more if you increase Crafting to max). There are five total, so it generously allows you to gain Common ones too.
Quick Snares: ranger feat 8, allows you to place Snares as a 3-action activity (you have to pay full price, but that's fine, they're cheap). This is where you as a ranger can start using snares effectively. It's also where snares stop scaling and you should probably abandon them.
Powerful Snares: ranger feat 16, requires Master craft, lets you use your own DC (and you can use snares again after 8 levels of disuse).
Each feat requires all the previous ones.
Each feat requires all the previous ones.
And an 8 bulk snare kit. :P
You also forgot that they have a stupid name.
A snare is a specific kind of trap.
Naming all traps as snares when they functionally and descriptively aren't looks dumb.Snares in 2e are a specific kind of trap.
Other kinds of traps are described in the Bestiary, under "Hazard". All traps have the "Trap" trait, and snares have the "snare" trait to indicate that they follow some specific rules dedicated to their subtype.We are trying to whine constructively here.
Isn't there a high level Ranger feat that lets a snare user's snares scale to their level (which, granted, suffers the problems of not being available until high level)?That's all correct, and there's one more problem too: like the alchemist, a snare user suffers from the save DCs not scaling to their level.
My group and I actually love snares conceptually but are put off by how bad they are in practice. We want them to stay, but to become a GOOD option. Our vision of the ideal is a Ranger being able to focus on snares instead of or in addition to animals or etc, tossing down snares as casually as a barbarian swings an axe, acting as a martial controller.
Level 16. And it only does that. Also, no benefit if the original DC is equal or higher than yours (which applies to nothing, as nothing gets close to the ~DC31 you'd get with it, or the higher ones you'd have at the later levels). Until then, you're stuck with DC22 and three options (three damaging traps that will deal at best 6d8 damage... y'know, if someone miraculously critfails), or no DC and three options (alarm, slowing, and signaling). The only scaling one is the Warning snare, which uses your Craft DC and is basically a more subtle Alarm.
I mean, sure, any feat that says "add +10 to your DC" would be massively powerful in any other context, but here it feels like ransom.
Regardless of all, it's the Slowing Snare that catches my eye and...
True. The other issue is that it divides snares into two categories: those with DCs (which therefore exist within this strange world of "useful"-useless for several levels-"useful" again) and those that don't use DCs (and therefore retain what utility they have regardless of level). Which I find to just be a glaring artifact of the game system rather than an mechanical expression of an in-universe phenomenon.
And yeah, I have the same issue with Spell Caps on Wands and Scrolls.
Wands and Scrolls are a world apart, because they are consumables that allow you to conserve class resources - you get the choice of using your own class resources instead of relying on them.
Snares are all the snares you have.
Sure, definitely, they only take a minute to set up, which means that while your cleric patches up everyone's wounds you can set 10 of the little nasties around the place and then... leave, because baiting foes into them is a tactic that works only against the dumbest of creatures (even Goblins call reinforcements if possible).
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Dare I say it? Snares are a trap!
Wands and Scrolls are a world apart, because they are consumables that allow you to conserve class resources - you get the choice of using your own class resources instead of relying on them.
Snares are all the snares you have.
Sure, definitely, they only take a minute to set up, which means that while your cleric patches up everyone's wounds you can set 10 of the little nasties around the place and then... leave, because baiting foes into them is a tactic that works only against the dumbest of creatures (even Goblins call reinforcements if possible).
But they're still consumables that either retain their usefulness from level 1 to level 20 due to being a spell that has neither a save DC nor a spell roll, or they're only useful for so long until the artifacts of the game's math say they aren't, when, if you cast those same spells off of your spell slots, the spells aren't artificially hampered.
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Snares are pretty much a useless mechanic to have for PCs. I can count on my hand the number of times PCs have set a trap. Mostly, PCs go into enemy territory.
Snare feats shouldn't be in core, they should be in a later supplement.
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Dunno, I like the idea of ranger being a terrain controller.
However, it needs to be something much more quick and usable. Like 1-action-20-ft-range usable.
Drop a snare, make that square difficult, or dangerous, or one-off explode.
Balance it as a stronger version of caltrops, not a weaker one.
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Or you could use your Craft DC for anything you Craft rather than buying it off the shelves, making it offset the downtime required with a practical benefit.
Or you could use your Craft DC for anything you Craft rather than buying it off the shelves, making it offset the downtime required with a practical benefit.
This is one of those suggestions that's so obvious in hindsight. If this was a universal rule across anything crafted, I think that would make so many categories of items more usable in general if you have or are willing to put the time or effort into doing it for yourself.
You also forgot that they have a stupid name.
A snare is a specific kind of trap.
Naming all traps as snares when they functionally and descriptively aren't looks dumb.Snares in 2e are a specific kind of trap.
Other kinds of traps are described in the Bestiary, under "Hazard". All traps have the "Trap" trait, and snares have the "snare" trait to indicate that they follow some specific rules dedicated to their subtype.
Emphasis mine.
I was making a joke and a commentary on naming conventions as applied to the 'snares suck' situation.
A snare is a kind of trap that attempts to entangle a creature by some means.
Alarm: does not entangle, doesn't even trip. not a snare and only barely a trap.
Biting Snare: this is a bear trap. could be a considered a snare if it entangled which it doesn't.
Caltrop Snare: does not entangle. not a snare, but is a trap.
Exploding Snare: does not entangle. not a snare, but is a trap.
Etc. Ad nauseam.
In fact, no Snare in the game applies the entangled condition.
And even if it did the entangled condition is just another form of Hampered which doesn't actually do what a snare is supposed to do which is catch something and hold it in place.
I'm glad you mentioned the traps in the hazard section of the bestiary.
The Trap trait defines an artificial hazard that was placed or constructed on purpose.
The Snare trait defines a trap that is designed to be set up quickly and follows different rules than hazards.
Because hazards with the Trap trait are in a different book there is no need to call Snares something other than a trap because there should not reasonably be any confusion between them.
However, for new players that know what the definitions of a trap and snare are, they could get unnecessarily bewildered and potentially confused because of how the Trap trait is applied to the snares and the hazards.
Proposal:
The Snare trait should be renamed 'Trapper'.
The Trap trait should be renamed 'Created'.
The Snares should be renamed 'Traps'.
There shouldn't be any confusion between Traps you set and Hazards that are called traps just like there wasn't any in 1e.
Or you could use your Craft DC for anything you Craft rather than buying it off the shelves, making it offset the downtime required with a practical benefit.This is one of those suggestions that's so obvious in hindsight. If this was a universal rule across anything crafted, I think that would make so many categories of items more usable in general if you have or are willing to put the time or effort into doing it for yourself.
Huh. I... didn't mean it that way, but... Yeah. I guess it's a thing now. Feel free to support.